Radio silence from the train guard

[johntea]

Currently on a Transpenine Express service from Newcastle to Liverpool, nearly at York and the guard hasn’t said a single thing the whole journey or walked down the train for a ticket inspection or even just to stretch their legs!

I could perhaps understand this on a local service i.e. Northern but on a journey of such a distance I would at least expect a little announcement at minimum whilst stood at Newcastle just to announce the service and calling points on the off chance a passenger had accidentally boarded the wrong service…

Being busy with other duties so they can’t do a ticket check is fine of course but not uttering a single word over the tannoy seems to be a bit poor, or am I just being a bit of a grumpy old man?!

Compare to my outward journey on the same route where there were 3 guards throughout the journey all who came down the train with a friendly smile on their face and performed a thorough ticket inspection plus regular announcements! (Of course 3 checks even for passengers already seen could be argued as on the other end of the scale, a bit too full on but I’m happy enough for that to take place if it helps fare evasion)

 

[357]

Maybe the guard is feeling a little sick and decided to come to work anyway instead of going sick (and thus the service being cancelled)?

 

[pdeaves]

Maybe the guard is feeling a little sick and decided to come to work anyway instead of going sick (and thus the service being cancelled)?

Maybe. If it were me, though, I would still use a PA and talk to the travelling customers.

 

[Undiscovered]

Maybe they are using the PA, and it's broken where you are?

 

[Flying Snail]

Perhaps the PA was out in your carriage, or some other tech reason.

I had a no announcement (auto or manual) journey a few weeks ago and it was bliss, no complaints here.

 

[Nippy]

Yup, sounds like bliss to me as well.

 

[johntea]

Would be surprised if the PA was knackered on a Nova!

It would have been bliss had auto woman not been blaring on about 100 messages throughout!

 

[yorkie]

Some leave it to the auto announcers.

I don't particularly mind providing announcements are appropriate and not excessive.

As for not seeing staff walk through the train, that's common on TPE. I didn't see any member of staff on my TPE Nova 1 from Manchester to York on Monday either, but nor did I expect to to see anyone. They did make an announcement though.

 

[TUC]

Maybe the guard is feeling a little sick and decided to come to work anyway instead of going sick (and thus the service being cancelled)?

Why presume an excuse for staff rather than make a presumption of the need for the best service for passengers?

 

[Undiscovered]

Why presume an excuse for staff rather than make a presumption of the need for the best service for passengers?

Do you ever have an 'off' day at work?

And yes, I've worked in several sectors where I've had to be on my A game every. single. time.
Something gives, eventually.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

many possibilities

1. The conductor concerned was busy with his/her duties and simply didn't reach you before the scheduled crew change (iin my case being +35 late due to someone jumping off Durham Viaduct and constantly dealing with punters delays, connections etc….

2. management were with them carrying out staff meetings or briefs in the rear cab

3. defective equipment may have prevented the conductor from carrying out customer service duties, either with the train requiring liaising with catering staff, signaller, control, maintenance and the driver (worst case but my galley fire last august meant I had to babysit first class for the entire journey) or with revenue equipment

4. May have been a conductor instructor and may have been training or assessing another member of staff on board

5. Took a step back to allow revenue officers to work the train who themselves may not have been able to complete their sweep of the train before having to leave at a certain station to make their back working

6. May have had important correspondence to deal with such as rule book amendments, company emails containing retail or traction briefs, updating roster patterns post may 15 which were recently released

7. may have had to play a role in keeping people safe following an incident on board

8. may have been involved in an incident and was advised to focus on safety critical duties only to keep the service moving and not undertake any commercial duties

9 TPE conductors are royally racked off and massively demoralised at the moment and maybe due to their mood and feelings just didnt feel like they could approach the punters in a positive light, or otherwise couldn't be arsed because they feel undervalued…

supeised the revenue officers were not about If you saw no one…..

 

[Neptune]

Would be surprised if the PA was knackered on a Nova!

It would have been bliss had auto woman not been blaring on about 100 messages throughout!

If the auto announcer was working what was the problem with there being no manual announcements?

I personally find it annoying when the auto announcer has announced everything, immediately followed by a manual announcement giving out exactly the same information.

 

[driverd]

As for not seeing staff walk through the train, that's common on TPE. I didn't see any member of staff on my TPE Nova 1 from Manchester to York on Monday either, but nor did I expect to to see anyone. They did make an announcement though.

Interesting that your expectation is set so low you wouldn't expect to see a member of staff. Thats really disappointing - TPE used to pride itself on good customer service, and 5 or so years ago I think it was genuinely one of the better TOCs.

many possibilities

1. The conductor concerned was busy with his/her duties and simply didn't reach you before the scheduled crew change (iin my case being +35 late due to someone jumping off Durham Viaduct and constantly dealing with punters delays, connections etc….

2. management were with them carrying out staff meetings or briefs in the rear cab

3. defective equipment may have prevented the conductor from carrying out customer service duties, either with the train requiring liaising with catering staff, signaller, control, maintenance and the driver (worst case but my galley fire last august meant I had to babysit first class for the entire journey) or with revenue equipment

4. May have been a conductor instructor and may have been training or assessing another member of staff on board

None of these reasons prevent the guard making a quick announcement advising where they can be found should customers need assistance.

5. Took a step back to allow revenue officers to work the train who themselves may not have been able to complete their sweep of the train before having to leave at a certain station to make their back working

Again, doesn't prevent an announcement.

6. May have had important correspondence to deal with such as rule book amendments, company emails containing retail or traction briefs, updating roster patterns post may 15 which were recently released

Absolutely inappropriate to be doing this on the move. It's an expectation that you keep your publications up to date during your down time (ie: the many hours between trains, spare turns, review days etc).

7. may have had to play a role in keeping people safe following an incident on board

Genuinely the only justifiable reason so far.

8. may have been involved in an incident and was advised to focus on safety critical duties only to keep the service moving and not undertake any commercial duties

Again, doesn't excuse not making an announcement.

9 TPE conductors are royally racked off and massively demoralised at the moment and maybe due to their mood and feelings just didnt feel like they could approach the punters in a positive light, or otherwise couldn't be arsed because they feel undervalued…

Awful and shambolic excuse. Irritation at an employer should be directed at the employer, not the customer. Rail staff all too often seem to forget where the revenue that pays their wages comes from (as well as the chunk of it that is from the tax payer currently).

As someone who was once employed as a guard, I find the readiness to jump to the defence of someone who isn't performing their duties correctly quite appalling. There's a slim chance there was a genuine reason, but in all probability, this member of staff was either being lazy or simply indifferent. This sort of behaviour and to normalise this sort of behaviour undermines the whole grade and is simply a walking advert for implementing DOO. It's particularly ironic, after so much industrial action has taken place to defend the grade. Conductors/guards, now more than ever, should be busy looking after the customer, proving their worth and making it clear that a guard adds substantial value over DOO - not hiding in the back and letting the customers practice for DOO.

Personally, I would report it to the company - probably won't make a difference to the member of staffs attitude, but atleast they can be reminded of what is expected of them.

 

[dingdinger]

The guard may have had a good reason for not being seen on that particular journey, and I don't think anyone is suggesting them repeating all the auto announcements however it would have done no harm announcing where they could be found if anyone needs anything. Visibility of some sort is reassuring.

 

[Towers]

The guard may have had a good reason for not being seen on that particular journey, and I don't think anyone is suggesting them repeating all the auto announcements however it would have done no harm announcing where they could be found if anyone needs anything. Visibility of some sort is reassuring.

Absolutely. Unless there is a genuine reason why it cannot be done - train fault of some sort, incident, train full & standing, service formed on non-gangwayed stock and it isn't possible or practical to move between the two - the guard should be at the very least walking through the full length of their train at some point during the journey and making themselves available to their passengers.

 

[Snow1964]

Absolutely. Unless there is a genuine reason why it cannot be done - train fault of some sort, incident, train full & standing, service formed on non-gangwayed stock and it isn't possible or practical to move between the two - the guard should be at the very least walking through the full length of their train at some point during the journey and making themselves available to their passengers.

And if the train has a faulty on non operative PA system, then the guard should probably be doing walk throughs more frequently than normal.

 

[LowLevel]

And if the train has a faulty on non operative PA system, then the guard should probably be doing walk throughs more frequently than normal.

Only if they know it's broken

I've spent many hours happily making detailed and informative announcements just to be told no one could hear them at the end of the journey.

 

[yorkie]

I rarely see staff on TPE trains these days, and when I do the ticket is generally not scanned (or looked at).

It's quite different to a few years ago when it was rare not to be checked.

I can't remember when I last had my ticket scanned on TPE; it must be many months ago now (my last journey was Monday this week and I travel fairly regularly)

Only if they know it's broken

I've spent many hours happily making detailed and informative announcements just to be told no one could hear them at the end of the journey.

Indeed; as I am sure you will be aware, a few years ago I took a journey which involved a train operated by a close colleague of yours who I know to be very diligent and was surprised there was no announcements (there was some disruption at the time particularly warranting announcements if I recall correctly, but it was a while back now!) and when I mentioned it, it turns out he had indeed attempted to make announcements and was unaware the system was broken.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe the guard is feeling a little sick and decided to come to work anyway instead of going sick (and thus the service being cancelled)?

With any operator some guards are a lot more pro-active than others. Some only walk through the train once during the journey whatever time of day it is, others rarely seem to be in the cab. This isn't helpful for passengers who find out-of-order ticket machines at stations and aren't given an opportunity to buy a ticket before getting to ticket barriers and inspectors who start probing passengers about why they haven't already purchased a ticket.

 

[JGurney]

Interesting that your expectation is set so low you wouldn't expect to see a member of staff. Thats really disappointing

I don't see what is disappointing about passengers not particularly expecting to see staff onboard. In my own case, while I am accustomed to seeing them, I don't particularly expect it or notice if no-one walks through, especially on a shorter journey. I suppose it is habbit - much of my early train travel was in non-corridor stock without loudspeakers, so I think I have a background perception that staff walking around and audible announcements are mere recent additions, rather than fundamental features to be expected of a train journey.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Avanti are bad for this. I can honestly say I don't think I've had a ticket check or seen a guard walking through the train since about 2018/19. I only saw a staff member on my last journey because I was hungry and went to the shop, which involved walking most of the length of the train with no guard seen.

In contrast, my journeys with Northern, Transport for Wales, and London Northwestern I would say I see a guard and have a ticket check more often than not.

 

[northwichcat]

Avanti are bad for this. I can honestly say I don't think I've had a ticket check or seen a guard walking through the train since about 2018/19. I only saw a staff member on my last journey because I was hungry and went to the shop, which involved walking most of the length of the train with no guard seen.

In contrast, my journeys with Northern, Transport for Wales, and London Northwestern I would say I see a guard and have a ticket check more often than not.

When I travelled with Avanti in December tickets were checked on board in both directions. On the return leg the guard also directed some standing passengers to vacant seats in other carriages. I think on some northbound journeys from Euston they don't always bother checking standard class passengers as tickets are checked prior to boarding. It does mean passengers making local journeys might go unchecked though.

My last return journey with Northern saw my ticket checked in one direction, on a 4 carriage train but not checked in the other, on a 2 carriage train.

 

[merry]

Regarding PA faults, modern [I did say modern!] on-train PA/PIS are generally continuously monitored for faults (such technology having become much more economic in recent years), and have dual redundant amplifier & speaker circuits in all cars (as required in LOC+PAS TSI as well as elsewhere). So any one fault will not render the PA inoperative, although it might be quieter and have less even coverage if one circuit fails.
On a modern train such as the Nova, the guard will know if the PA is inoperative, as will the driver, because a significant fault will be logged & alerted via the TCMS. On TPE I know the guard must make a train check, walking through with the PA repeating a test message (as well as other checks) before entering service.
AIUI entering service with the PA inoperative is likely not permitted anyway on such a train, as it's considered critical equipment for safety. Likewise, if a microphone has failed, and the guard cannot access another reasonably quickly when required, it's probably not allowed to enter service.

I won't comment on the visible presence (or otherwise) of the guard, nor on actual PA use, but a PA failure is unlikely to be the cause of lack of announcements.

 

[ExRes]

I'd have thought people would be queuing up to congratulate the guard for the lack of announcements, haven't we just had a 500+ reply thread about how announcements were driving everyone to the edge of insanity?

 

[RailWonderer]

Definitely true. In my experience there is no correlation between the operator and how proactive the guards are, with the exception of SWR. They almost always walk up and down the train and always state the next stop, any service updates, offer help and where they can be found, although they don’t always check tickets, only if the service is quieter they do.

Virgin used to be have the strictest guards but Avanti seem to have relaxed with everything from branding to the mentality of guards.

 

[bramling]

I don't see what is disappointing about passengers not particularly expecting to see staff onboard. In my own case, while I am accustomed to seeing them, I don't particularly expect it or notice if no-one walks through, especially on a shorter journey. I suppose it is habbit - much of my early train travel was in non-corridor stock without loudspeakers, so I think I have a background perception that staff walking around and audible announcements are mere recent additions, rather than fundamental features to be expected of a train journey.

For those of us used to DOO, no sight of staff is quite normal, and I don’t really see why people should find it unsettling. I must have clocked up many miles on DOO trains over the years, and I can’t honestly say the lack of a staff presence has made any difference. This includes non-gangwayed units in multiple, sometimes 12-car.

A friend from elsewhere in the country did comment on it though, “how come the conductors round here are never to be seen?”. When I explained that there isn’t one he just said “ah, that explains it then”. He was surprised that you don’t buy tickets on the train, though.

 

[Neptune]

I'd have thought people would be queuing up to congratulate the guard for the lack of announcements, haven't we just had a 500+ reply thread about how announcements were driving everyone to the edge of insanity?

It would appear that the irony of this is lost on most people on here.

 

[northwichcat]

For those of us used to DOO, no sight of staff is quite normal, and I don’t really see why people should find it unsettling.

On Northern trains there's no help points except in the toilet and wheelchair area and all the help points do is activate a message to call for the guard (who may be in a different portion). If there's an emergency like a passenger needing an ambulance what are you supposed to do if the guard remains hidden? Pull the communication cord and hope the ambulance can get to the middle of nowhere?

 

[D6130]

If there's an emergency like a passenger needing an ambulance what are you supposed to do if the guard remains hidden? Pull the communication cord and hope the ambulance can get to the middle of nowhere?

Better to wait till the next station stop before pulling the passcom. That having been said, the emergency buttons/handles on most modern Northern units communicate with the driver rather than the conductor....and it will be the driver to whom you speak once the train has been brought to a stand.

 

[skyhigh]

On Northern trains there's no help points except in the toilet and wheelchair area

Only on the legacy stock. 195s and 331s have two-way communication call for aids in the door areas (one per pair of doors). 170s and 333s have passenger alarms throughout the train that allow two-way communication with the driver.

and all the help points do is activate a message to call for the guard (who may be in a different portion).

Not quite, they allow two-way communication between either the driver or guard with the person who pushed it.