R.I.P Christopher Hitchens

[Minilad]

Razor sharp intellect, and a very eloquent and fearless critic of religious fanaticism, and stupidity in general.
Not sure R.I.P is entirely appropriate though !!

 

[table38]

I just heard on LBC, someone asked him what he thought of David Cameron. Apparently his reply was:

He doesn't make me think

 

[sutty]

A sad day, that I felt was coming ever too soon. I only wish I'd "discovered" him earlier than under a year ago, however.

 

[SS4]

Legend doesn't even begin to describe this great man

May his body be returned as wholesome nutrients to support natural selection.
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Not 24 hours after this death of this freedom fighter our Glorious Leader comes out with David Cameron says the UK is a Christian country

:cry:

 

[Robinson]

Legend doesn't even begin to describe this great man

May his body be returned as wholesome nutrients to support natural selection.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not 24 hours after this death of this freedom fighter our Glorious Leader comes out with David Cameron says the UK is a Christian country

:cry:

For once in my life, I actually find myself agreeing with David Cameron...
Scary hock:

 

[SS4]

For once in my life, I actually find myself agreeing with David Cameron...
Scary hock:

He links morality with Christianity with is ****e. Thankfully. Britain is a secular country - surely not even Cameron dare **** with that. Perhaps I'm blowing the comments out of all proportion but if I'm not then frankly we need to EU to guarantee our religious freedom. In a time of record debt religion gets tax subsidies for brainwashing innocent people, especially children

 

[Michael.Y]

Some excellent articles written (well, published) this weekend:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...tchens-I-wish-Id-done-more-of-everything.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/8960582/Christopher-Hitchens-a-noble-contrarian.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/dec/16/christopher-hitchens-commentary-frances-stonor-saunders


And this excellent interview is well worth 30 minutes of your life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9233571.stm

 

[Zoe]

Britain is a secular country - surely not even Cameron dare **** with that.

It's not that simple. England still has an officially established church that the Queen is head of and Cameron as prime minister nominates the Bishops for. 26 Bishops also sit in the House of Lords as Lords Spiritual. If you want all of Britain to be a secular state like France then this link should be removed.

 

[Michael.Y]

It's not that simple. England still has an officially established church that the Queen is head of and Cameron as prime minister nominates the Bishops for. 26 Bishops also sit in the House of Lords as Lords Spiritual. If you want all of Britain to be a secular state like France then this link should be removed.

None of our gutless politicians will stand on a platform of separating church and state though.

 

[NSEFAN]

None of our gutless politicians will stand on a platform of separating church and state though.

Even if the UK is indeed a "Christian" country, I don't get the impression that anyone's views are being rammed down anyone elses throats. The way I see it, the modern UK acts like a secular country, due to the level of tolerance and mix of belief systems we have.

The Prime Minister is entitled to his own views even though I disagree with them. I imagine what he's doing is pandering to the establishment more than expressing his own views.

Thank you for the links by the way. They are an interesting read. Hitchens will be sadly missed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Radio 4 had a short eulogy of Christopher Hitchens this morning, with people who knew him then expressing how they reacted to him on a face-to-face basis.

 

[Michael.Y]

Even if the UK is indeed a "Christian" country, I don't get the impression that anyone's views are being rammed down anyone elses throats.

Devil's* advocate; but we've got faith schools, the Christian B&B owners refusing to accommodate gay couples, there's the Catholic adoption agencies, there's idiots on the streets with placards and megaphones, and then there's the whole concept of Sunday trading laws and Sunday transportation provision. I'm about to catch a bus to the pub to watch the football - the only bus for two hours.


*Pun intended.

 

[Minilad]

Devil's* advocate; but we've got faith schools, the Christian B&B owners refusing to accommodate gay couples, there's the Catholic adoption agencies, there's idiots on the streets with placards and megaphones, and then there's the whole concept of Sunday trading laws and Sunday transportation provision. I'm about to catch a bus to the pub to watch the football - the only bus for two hours.


*Pun intended.

What football are you going to watch ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In a time of record debt religion gets tax subsidies for brainwashing innocent people, especially children

Still, you seem to have managed to come out of the system unscathed..

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Still, you seem to have managed to come out of the system unscathed..

Aye many do, but many also do not, that is the problem!

 

[Minilad]

Still, you seem to have managed to come out of the system unscathed..

We must have a different idea on the meaning of the word unscathed

 

[Clint]

Devil's* advocate; but we've got faith schools, the Christian B&B owners refusing to accommodate gay couples, there's the Catholic adoption agencies, there's idiots on the streets with placards and megaphones, and then there's the whole concept of Sunday trading laws and Sunday transportation provision. I'm about to catch a bus to the pub to watch the football - the only bus for two hours.


*Pun intended.

But if some Christian B&B owners won't accommodate homosexuals because it goes against their beliefs, and they are forced to by people who don't believe there's anything wrong with homosexuality, isn't that just replacing one form of 'enforcing your beliefs on others' with another?

Intolerance works both ways.

And we should be careful what we wish for as far as secularisation is concerned. When the sunday trading laws were relaxed we were told that sunday working would attract enhanced pay. Nowadays many people work on sundays as part of their rota and don't see any more pay for doing so.

If we decide as a society that Christianity should not form part of who we are anymore then what will happen to bank holidays, many of which are based on the fact that we treat Christian festivals as special points of the calendar?

I'm sure many employers would rub their hands at this and see an excuse to rid us of the 8 days we get off per year as Bank Holidays.

There should be times in this busy world of ours where we relax and go at a slower pace than normal. If we start saying that sunday should be the same as any other day of the week then you might have more buses to choose from, but you might not have the day off to be able to watch the football in the first place!

 

[SS4]

But if some Christian B&B owners won't accommodate homosexuals because it goes against their beliefs, and they are forced to by people who don't believe there's anything wrong with homosexuality, isn't that just replacing one form of 'enforcing your beliefs on others' with another?

What if these same owners won't accommodate black people? Or short people? Or Jews? Or foreigners?
Beliefs that are founded on evidence are stronger than those which are not. Christianity, with all religious beliefs, falls into the latter category.

Ancient fairy tales with no basis in evidence are no grounds for denying someone's human right

Intolerance works both ways.

Equal Rights is intolerance nowadays?

And we should be careful what we wish for as far as secularisation is concerned. When the sunday trading laws were relaxed we were told that sunday working would attract enhanced pay. Nowadays many people work on sundays as part of their rota and don't see any more pay for doing so.

If we decide as a society that Christianity should not form part of who we are anymore then what will happen to bank holidays, many of which are based on the fact that we treat Christian festivals as special points of the calendar?

There are plenty of secular holidays we can make bank holidays, whether the government would mandate it is a different matter

• January 1 - New Year
• February 12 - Darwin's Birthday
• Early May - International Labour Day (Tories have already made noise about getting rid of this one)
• June 21 - Summer Solstice
• August 15 - VJ Day (end of WWII)
• September 15 - Battle of Britain Day
• October 21 - Battle of Trafalgar
• November 11 - Remembrance Day
• December 21 - Winter Solstice

I'm sure many employers would rub their hands at this and see an excuse to rid us of the 8 days we get off per year as Bank Holidays.

They sure would which is why we'd need a government to force it.

There should be times in this busy world of ours where we relax and go at a slower pace than normal. If we start saying that sunday should be the same as any other day of the week then you might have more buses to choose from, but you might not have the day off to be able to watch the football in the first place!

Current employment laws mandate that you get at least one day off a week or two a fortnight. While you may lose Sunday you will gain, say, Tuesday.

 

[Clint]

I think that with "equal rights" comes the responsibility to ensure that everyone's rights are equal.

So why should a B&B owner who doesn't agree with homosexuality have their rights trounced by those who hold an opposing view?

I would argue that with equal rights comes the right, whether we agree with it or not, to be prejudiced.

If I encounter someone who holds a prejudice I disagree with then it is my right to avoid them or choose to go elsewhere for what I require.

I accept that it is different in a workplace, for example, so that someone's prejudices cannot bar people from promotion or recruitment etc, or that healthcare and education should be provided equally to all regardless of circumstance.

But for me if you come across someone running a B&B who doesn't like the way you live your life then you can choose to think "what an idiot, I won't be giving him/her my custom" rather than thinking "we should legislate so that this person isn't allowed to hold those views".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Aye many do, but many also do not, that is the problem!

As one still actually going through the education system, what is your first-hand knowledge of how the teachers actually address these points ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As one still actually going through the education system, what is your first-hand knowledge of how the teachers actually address these points ?

What many teachers say makes jack difference to the things they get taught in mosque / church from m experience.

 

[Lampshade]

Ancient fairy tales with no basis in evidence are no grounds for denying someone's human right

It's no one's 'human right' to stay in a B&B.

 

[Butts]

Getting back on topic has anyone heard comments from his brother Peter ?

I remember a few years back when they were both on Question Time - it was quite a lively encounter.

 

[table38]

Yes, there's an article in the Mail on Sunday:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/12/in-memoriam-christopher-hitchens-1949-2011.html

 

[Butts]

Yes, there's an article in the Mail on Sunday:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/12/in-memoriam-christopher-hitchens-1949-2011.html

Very Good - thanks for that

 

[Michael.Y]

So why should a B&B owner who doesn't agree with homosexuality have their rights trounced by those who hold an opposing view?

Because they don't have any right to operate a commercial premises that offers a public service to the traveller / holidaymaker that excludes certain members of society based on their sexual orientation on the premise of something written down in a 2000-year old book.

Operating a B&B that excludes gays is no different to apartheid in my opinion. And that was pretty much inexcusable. Religion allows the unjustifiable (homophobia, racism, misogyny) to become justifiable. No wonder Hitch hated it.

 

[Trog]

Is the religious indoctrination of children for the future benefit of the religions leaders’ child abuse?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Who do you think will be the best qualified to take over the mantle from Christopher Hitchens ?
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Is the religious indoctrination of children for the future benefit of the religions leaders’ child abuse?

Listening to the news of the death of Kim Jong Il of North Korea, on News 24 whilst I am on the forum this morning, I feel that the matter of the indoctrination of children in such a closed society is indeed a topic worthy of discussion in a country such as ours that has the freedom to allow such a discussion.

 

[NSEFAN]

Listening to the news of the death of Kim Jong Il of North Korea, on News 24 whilst I am on the forum this morning, I feel that the matter of the indoctrination of children in such a closed society is indeed a topic worthy of discussion in a country such as ours that has the freedom to allow such a discussion.

Indeed. We may often get bad people in authority, but at least we can talk about what they do and bring them to justice if necessary. It makes me feel glad we moved out of the middle ages. Mind you, there's always someone who thinks the olden days were better... :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What many teachers say makes jack difference to the things they get taught in mosque / church from my experience.

If, by this, you are saying that these teachers come into the British education system uncluttered by ideas from mosque or church teaching and teach the children in their care with a mind free from pre-conceived ideas and with their own personal considered judgement, then this is a good thing.

I did ask you what your first-hand knowledge was whether any of your own teachers teach with such a freedom of mind.