DaveNewcastle
Established Member
That scenario does not remove the statutory obligation to hold a valid ticket before boarding.
There is no scope for 'argument' about this (other than on here, apparently).
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Queue Waiting.
- Thread starter Northernboy67
- Start date
- Status
There is no scope for 'argument' about this (other than on here, apparently).
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
wellwhatitis
Member
- Joined
- 12 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 176
Happens frequently at Coventry, particularly at weekends when all 4 windows and all TVMs are operational with queues out the door. Always accompanied by PA announcements, messages on PIS and e mails from Control to traincrew advising that sale onboard is permissable.
Thanks. I've only travelled from Coventry the once, so I'm not at all familiar with operations there.
The problem of staff using discretion in such circumstances is, unfortunately, IME 90%+ of the time I heard this excuse in my 15 years of guarding/rpi/rp manager etc it was bullcrap.
I would ring the station booking office to hear there wasn't a queue, the customer would come from a non booking office direction to the platform or it would be only after I had seemingly awoken a passenger from an 'immediate deep sleep'.
Some smaller stations -I could see the booking office very clearly and there not being a stampede of flustered 'queuers' as departure time came made it simply unbelievable that such a queue prevented them from purchasing at all.
Truth being told - it was simply that buying on the train and waiting for the guard to present them with the opportunity at the travellers most convenient time, and sod everyone else, was a choice they made, with the added bonus that if the guard couldn't 'do' a ticket or didn't 'come round' to them they had a free journey.
This 'belief' that the guard would sort out tickets for money was a product very much of the old commission system also IME where 5% (?) of revenue was allocated to ticket sales OB, some months this was worth at least £1000 IME, hence guards would actively discourage regulars from using the booking office, especially for weekly seasons etc or 1st class, however those days are long gone.
How many people used to pay at termini/destinations (even when obvious opportunities were there) if the traveller was not physically prevented from leaving the station by a barrier/rpi check?
I'll wager that Paddington excess fares office in the first few weeks of their barriers was selling 50 times as much as the normal booking office had from arriving punters before the barriers.
Reading (as an example) was losing well in excess of £1.5 million per year before the barriers were installed and that was a very, very conservative estimate.
The problem with erring on the side of 'customer care' is the railway, unless it enforces ticket purchase, doesn't actually know whom is a customer and whom simply travelling without paying, the railways biggest problem with fare evasion was never the persons determined not to pay or whom obviously had no means to, it was the persons who would only pay when directly challenged to do so.
I would ring the station booking office to hear there wasn't a queue, the customer would come from a non booking office direction to the platform or it would be only after I had seemingly awoken a passenger from an 'immediate deep sleep'.
Some smaller stations -I could see the booking office very clearly and there not being a stampede of flustered 'queuers' as departure time came made it simply unbelievable that such a queue prevented them from purchasing at all.
Truth being told - it was simply that buying on the train and waiting for the guard to present them with the opportunity at the travellers most convenient time, and sod everyone else, was a choice they made, with the added bonus that if the guard couldn't 'do' a ticket or didn't 'come round' to them they had a free journey.
This 'belief' that the guard would sort out tickets for money was a product very much of the old commission system also IME where 5% (?) of revenue was allocated to ticket sales OB, some months this was worth at least £1000 IME, hence guards would actively discourage regulars from using the booking office, especially for weekly seasons etc or 1st class, however those days are long gone.
How many people used to pay at termini/destinations (even when obvious opportunities were there) if the traveller was not physically prevented from leaving the station by a barrier/rpi check?
I'll wager that Paddington excess fares office in the first few weeks of their barriers was selling 50 times as much as the normal booking office had from arriving punters before the barriers.
Reading (as an example) was losing well in excess of £1.5 million per year before the barriers were installed and that was a very, very conservative estimate.
The problem with erring on the side of 'customer care' is the railway, unless it enforces ticket purchase, doesn't actually know whom is a customer and whom simply travelling without paying, the railways biggest problem with fare evasion was never the persons determined not to pay or whom obviously had no means to, it was the persons who would only pay when directly challenged to do so.
Last edited:
I don't doubt what you're saying at all but train operators do seem to acknowledge that there is an onus on them to provide sufficient facilities, either ticket machines or windows open, to purchase a ticket. I think it is one of those situations that you cannot make a hard and fast rule for, obviously there might be a big queue at a particular station one day and hardly anybody at all at the same time on another day.
I understand that, but there IS a hard and fast rule already and that is that passengers must purchase if a ticket issuing facility is provided.
To be fair, until Reading barriers were put in, the station wasn't aware of the true scale of the number of passengers travelling without tickets on a regular basis.
Therefore it could indeed be argued, at that time, that issuing facilities were insufficient.
Stations with ticket barriers know full well how many windows and machines they need open to cope with demand in 99.9% of all cases on a daily basis, whenever complaints are made about excessive queues CCTV etc is checked, unfortunately for your argument IME well over 90% of all complaints about excessive waiting times are found to not be an accurate complaint.
This is another case of the majority of honest customers who will buy a ticket at their 1st opportunity, being disadvantaged by rulings made which were in turn caused by the minority of those who would take the **** unless forced to behave and be honest, just like penalty fares unfortunately.
To be fair, until Reading barriers were put in, the station wasn't aware of the true scale of the number of passengers travelling without tickets on a regular basis.
Therefore it could indeed be argued, at that time, that issuing facilities were insufficient.
Stations with ticket barriers know full well how many windows and machines they need open to cope with demand in 99.9% of all cases on a daily basis, whenever complaints are made about excessive queues CCTV etc is checked, unfortunately for your argument IME well over 90% of all complaints about excessive waiting times are found to not be an accurate complaint.
This is another case of the majority of honest customers who will buy a ticket at their 1st opportunity, being disadvantaged by rulings made which were in turn caused by the minority of those who would take the **** unless forced to behave and be honest, just like penalty fares unfortunately.
However postings on here show that rule is being over ruled by common sense, as you rightly say most people will buy a ticket at the first opportunity indeed I've seen people walking down trains trying to find the guard.
Rheilfordd
Member
On my journey into Liv St from Rayleigh this morning a team of 3 RPS walked the carriage checking tickets.
On arriving at a lady sat opposite me, she stated that she had no ticket as the ticket office at Prittlewell was closed and that it has no machine.
The RPS (then told her to get off at the next station which was Wickford to buy a ticket)
The lady, remonstrated very reasonably, explaining that she had an interview at Romford and that getting off at Wickford was unreasonable, would make her late and that she was more than willing to pay now or at the destination.
Many of the passengers intervened to support her position as the revenue staff were seemingly ignoring the logic of the circumstances. NRE web site states that Prittlewell ticket office is open from 6am and that it doesn't have a ticket machine, If the ticket office was closed, and they appeared to accept this as fact, how could they inconvenience a passenger in this way ?
The situation was only resolved when the lady accepted a penalty fare so as to be allowed to continue her journey and make her appointment.
Are the rules really that dumb that passengers can be so seriously inconvenienced as a result of a TOC not opening their ticket office ?
Why on earth couldn't the revenue inspectors sell her the appropriate ticket? This really is outrageous.
Unfortunately a significant enough number of travellers will NOT buy a ticket at the 1st opportunity to make sure the TOCs will enforce CTAs etc.
The rule is 'overruled' very occasionally (not anywhere near a regular basis IME) by someone who has the authority to instruct other ticketing staff to ignore the 1st opportunity due to 'such and such', it can't and isn't overruled by station staff asking the guard to allow -that is then his discretion (which is allowed).
Once again -CCTV and reports from the various machines used by ticketing staff give good evidence to the TOC about what ticketing facilities are required.
I am afraid in 15 years very, very few of the tickets I sold were to passengers who sought me out to sell them a ticket (far less than 1% of all tickets I sold OB) and had this been the majority on a regular basis then I am sure that such a rule ensuring tickets were bought before travel or a penalty incurred would not have been made.
On the 2nd posters point:
RPS? revenue protection....... what?
RPIs surely?
anyway -obviously they were misinformed, there is no such rule expecting the lady on question to have left at an intermediate station, since that was not the 1st opportunity.
The correct procedure was to have checked her originating station did NOT have ticket issuing facilities and then if this was the case to have either sold her the appropriate ticket or ensured it could be issued either OB or at the destination station.
Of course if they then found the originating station to have had TI facilities they then report her for travel after passing the 1st opportunity.
The rule is 'overruled' very occasionally (not anywhere near a regular basis IME) by someone who has the authority to instruct other ticketing staff to ignore the 1st opportunity due to 'such and such', it can't and isn't overruled by station staff asking the guard to allow -that is then his discretion (which is allowed).
Once again -CCTV and reports from the various machines used by ticketing staff give good evidence to the TOC about what ticketing facilities are required.
I am afraid in 15 years very, very few of the tickets I sold were to passengers who sought me out to sell them a ticket (far less than 1% of all tickets I sold OB) and had this been the majority on a regular basis then I am sure that such a rule ensuring tickets were bought before travel or a penalty incurred would not have been made.
On the 2nd posters point:
RPS? revenue protection....... what?
RPIs surely?
anyway -obviously they were misinformed, there is no such rule expecting the lady on question to have left at an intermediate station, since that was not the 1st opportunity.
The correct procedure was to have checked her originating station did NOT have ticket issuing facilities and then if this was the case to have either sold her the appropriate ticket or ensured it could be issued either OB or at the destination station.
Of course if they then found the originating station to have had TI facilities they then report her for travel after passing the 1st opportunity.
Surely these RPI's should know what ticket facilities are available at Prittlewell? Just to be clear, I in no way condone fare evasion but the behaviour of some RPI's really is appalling.
Rheilfordd
Member
As a frequent visitor to this forum, I like many fellow passengers attempted to intervene.
I happened to be sitting next to the lady who had 3 (RPIs) ticket checkers for the non pedantic, leaning over our seats.
I intervened as I thought that their behaviour was not only stupid but threatening. I felt that they had identified a victim, their behaviour was nothing short of intimidation.
When I suggested that they were unaware of their own rules and that the lady should be allowed to purchase a ticket from them or the first available opportunity at Romford, the spokesman replied that they were not equipped to sell tickets so it was either get off or penalty fare.
Again they insisted that the lady get off the train at Wickford to purchase a ticket, her polite remonstrations that this was ridiculous counted for nought.
I then informed them that I was looking up their rules on the web via my phone, I was told to "shut up and stay out of it" if I wanted to stay on the train. I then informed them that the NRE web site confirmed that Prittlewell didn't have a ticket machine, which they kept on referring to.
Understandably, the passenger was now in some stress and volunteered under duress to accept a penalty fare, this being the only option offered to allow her to continue her journey.
The spokesperson for the gang of 3 then said that if they were to leave the train before Romford, other ticket checkers may board and there was no way they could authorise her to travel to Romford.
Again I intervened, much to their obvious displeasure, asking them in that case to write her a note validating that they agreed with her account and allowing her to travel to Romford.
I was again told to keep quiet and stay out of it.
The Lady thanked me for my intervention but said she'd rather pay the penalty fare than risk being made to get off the train. I gave her my details to support her appeal against the penalty fare and the heroic threesome jumped off at Shenfield to seek out more victims.
Welcome to Abellio land. This was the 3 Stooges do ticket inspection, it was at best incompetence, in truth it was intimidation and harassment by people who cared little about the truth of the matter and even less about their "customer".
Last edited:
This says all that needs to be said about the RPI's knowledge of ticketing rules.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Sending RPIs without the facility to sell tickets onto a train which calls at a station at which one cannot buy a ticket is singularly stupid
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Ignoring the "rantishness" of the above posting, but my understanding is that RPI's do NOT and CANNOT sell tickets. They are NOT equipped to do so.
And shock, horror, but you've used those magical words "threatening, intimidation, harassment". Funny how they appear so often in certain cases.
And shock, horror, but you've used those magical words "threatening, intimidation, harassment". Funny how they appear so often in certain cases.
And all credit to you for getting involved, the one that told you to shut up if you wanted to stay on the train should be hauled up before his boss and quite possibly sacked and if train companies are unwilling to act maybe the BTP should not get involved.
I have seen similar scenarios with aggressive RPI's trying to intimidate lone women who they see as easy targets, on one occasion another passenger started recording them on his phone and they completely changed their tune.
There are clearly some RPI's who think they are a law unto themselves and they need to be rooted out, I totally deplore rudeness and aggression towards railway staff but it has to work both ways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ahh, but they can sell tickets!
A year or two back I boarded a Southeastern train at Dartford and two RPI's got on. A woman sitting near me said she didn't have a ticket having boarded at Stone Crossing where there was only a permit to travel machine and all she had was notes. She was told quite abruptly that it was her responsibility to have coinage and she would have to pay a penalty fare. She wasn't as meek and mild as she appeared and told them where they could stick their penalty fare, the RPI then threatened to call the police to which she replied "go ahead and call them". The two RPI's then had a private chat and then said they could sell her a single but not the return that she wanted, they were trying to act as if they were doing her a favour. She said, quite rightly, that she wasn't going to pay twice and that if they couldn't sell her a return she would buy one at Lewisham where she was getting off. Realising this was a battle that they were not going to win they eventually sold her the return ticket that she wanted.
RJ
Established Member
All RPIs are not one and the same. They carry machines and sell tickets on the line(s) I work on - mainly child tickets to families who weren't aware children needed paying for. At a previous workplace, the RPIs also carried ticket machines and sold tickets. Every TOC does their own thing with regards to job titles and responsibilities. EMT's RPIs carry ticket machines and just yesterday I had my ticket checked by a machine carrying RPI on SWT, which was surprising on a Sunday.
Some revenue staff can come across as intimidating and issue threats. Sometimes when people are unsupervised, they behave in a way that they wouldn't if their manager, or the MD of their company was watching - to this end, not all aggrieved passenger's feelings about the way the RPI behaved towards should be automatically dismissed. That said, I've seen many RPIs who are courteous and professional in their manner.
Last edited:
Some use paper ticket pads and hand write the tickets.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I discourage any judgements without access to the facts. We face a difficulty in having no background iniformation about this incident. I can think of two separate justifications for exactly this outcome - though both of them have something in common, that the passenger was a regular traveller on that route and regularly travelled without a ticket (two presumptions which, sadly, are very recurrent). One of these two speculative circumstances makes the response appear quite harsh, the other makes it (to use your words) "outrageous", but outrageous in its generosity to the passenger.
Perhaps there was no more to the situation, but I can assure you (with staggering statistics) that the proportion of outraged and 'unfairly victimised' ticketless passengers falls far short of the number of ticketless passengers (sorry, "customers who haven't paid and so who are not customers"). Fare Evasion on the Southend line is a significant loss to the railways.
Indeed.
There are very sound operational and legal reasons why an investigaing officer should not be given duties which can be conflated with those of a ticket seller. They've been explained on here and elsewhere several times, in rigourous detail.
But as a casual illustration, consider how a 'bribe' could be distinguished from a 'penalty' if an Officer investigating any crime was authorised to accept a payment to discharge the Offence? Or how a determined fare evader could ever avoid the opportunity to 'only pay when challenged'?
Not the same thing. Please don't confuse isolated personal experience with the law, with industry policy, and custom and practice. And most importantly, how Fare Evasion can be detected.
Last edited:
My comment was directed to the apparent implication by the RPI's that, having been issued a Penalty Fare, the passenger might encounter a second set of RPI's and be penalty fared again:
My limited understanding of ticket procedure has lead me to believe that the PFN would, in itself, act as authorisation to complete her journey.
Let's not complicate things unnecessarily, I don't think it unreasonable to expect RPI's who can 'sell' penalty fare tickets should also be able to sell standard tickets.
I do apologise if my comments regarding what designation the 3 Revenue protection employees was factually correct -i.e. RPS/RPI/RP etc was misunderstood by anyone.
This wasn't mere 'pedantry' it was an effort to establish an important fact, one that later posters have also alluded to-
that these RP-whatevers might have a new/different designation (and therefore possibly duties) than regular RPI's we are seemingly all more familiar with.
If you are likely to see such fact checking as pedantry it's probably best to ignore any postings I make in which case, since I will try to establish fact in all such cases, if I think it's relevant.
Far more relevant than liberally abusing staff I hasten to add.
I also agree that if an RP-x can issue a PF on a machine they can issue a ticket.
This wasn't mere 'pedantry' it was an effort to establish an important fact, one that later posters have also alluded to-
that these RP-whatevers might have a new/different designation (and therefore possibly duties) than regular RPI's we are seemingly all more familiar with.
If you are likely to see such fact checking as pedantry it's probably best to ignore any postings I make in which case, since I will try to establish fact in all such cases, if I think it's relevant.
Far more relevant than liberally abusing staff I hasten to add.
I also agree that if an RP-x can issue a PF on a machine they can issue a ticket.
Last edited:
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 24,546
In my experience, PFs are issued from a paper pad and not from an Avantix machine. That said, the Avantix is probably useful for checking the fare that hasn't been paid.
Rheilfordd
Member
I am at a loss to understand the point being made in the above post. I was the passenger who witnessed the incident, I have no axe to grind, I merely recounted the incident exactly as I perceived it, including my personal perception of unreasonable and intimidating behaviour. Both towards the lady involved and to myself.
This perception appeared to be shared by other passengers as they also intervened, in itself a most unusual situation on trains around London.
The words in my post were chosen based on the facts of what actually happened on that train. I can therefore only assume that the writer who considers my post a "rant" and suggests that the inclusion of "magical" words such as "intimidation" confirms some ulterior motive on my behalf, must be biased as well as rude.
Perhaps the behaviour was entirely justified because it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt by people with no knowledge of the circumstances, that the lady involved in this incident was part of a ruthless, Southend based, fare dodging cartel :-?
Last edited:
Is a ticket office 'in working order' if it can't sell you a ticket within 20 minutes?
Last edited:
On a similar vain .... how long should a customer wait to purchase a ticket to exit a station where no ticketing facilities have existed at their origin station and the guard is unable to sell you a ticket. This has happened 3 times with Northern, boarding a train at HIN to MAN, after the ticket office at HIN has closed and no TVM available. On each occasion at MAN there has been a queue of at least 60/70 people trying to purchase a ticket to exit the station. On each occasion the wait has been around 30 minutes and on one occasion resulted in being late to the event I was attending. Appears that even if you get to the station in plenty of time, have an intention to pay, depart and arrive on time by train - you can then still face severe delays, none of which are your fault!
Yes. Why ever would you ask such a question?
Can you claim delay-repay?
- Status