Queue Waiting.

[Northernboy67]

When travelling on a train, a conductor will approach a passenger without a ticket. He/She will try and purchase a ticket, and is often questioned as to why a ticket was not purchased at the Station. More often that not the response is, 'There was a queue, and I would have missed the train'. The passenger being told, that they should make more time to purchase a ticket. Which brings me to this scenario. I had just received my season ticket loan from work, one Saturday. I therefore needed to renew the ticket, as I was travelling that day. I arrived at the station, with only one window open. 2 Ticket machines in working order, but I can't renew an annual season ticket on that. There were queues for these machines. My Train was 20 minutes, but at the front of the queue was someone renewing a season ticket, but using vouchers, probably from delay repay. There were at least 8 people in front of me. (The ticket renewer, finally got her ticket, and was not even travelling!!) I knew I could not travel without a ticket, and ended up missing my train. I had to wait for the next train which was a stopper, but I was late for where I needed to get to. What constitutes reasonable waiting time? Last February, I was at a station, and waited in a queue for one ticket machine (Station Ticket Office was closed) After waiting 10 minutes. The man in front of me had trouble using the machine, so my train was missed. Ah well never mind.

 

[Merseysider]

20 minutes would normally be a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket so if you were delayed enough by having to get the next train you could probably succeed with a delay repay claim.

In these circumstances having a word with the guard before boarding and asking for permission to renew it at destination wouldn't be a bad idea, nor would asking him to sell a normal ticket on board which you would then have the price of discounted from your renewal.

However I would like to point out that although excessive waiting times may be a breach of the passengers' charter (a little more information re station and train company would be useful) it does not automatically entitle you to board without a ticket.

 

[Northernboy67]

20 minutes would normally be a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket so if you were delayed enough by having to get the next train you could probably succeed with a delay repay claim.

In these circumstances having a word with the guard before boarding and asking for permission to renew it at destination wouldn't be a bad idea, nor would asking him to sell a normal ticket on board which you would then have the price of discounted from your renewal.

However I would like to point out that although excessive waiting times may be a breach of the passengers' charter (a little more information re station and train company would be useful) it does not automatically entitle you to board without a ticket.

I declined to say which station and TOC it is, because I have 2 job applications for them, and don't want to be seen to be criticising them.

 

[Class377]

Because the byelaws are strict liability, arguably you are expected to wait as long as it takes.

 

[yorkie]

I declined to say which station and TOC it is, because I have 2 job applications for them, and don't want to be seen to be criticising them.

Ask the Train Company how long you should allow before you'd be able to board the train. If you are unhappy with their response contact Passenger Focus.

 

[island]

It is a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station with an open ticket office, unless you have permission from an authorised person. The existence of a queue, irrespective of length, is not a defence.

 

[Flamingo]

I saw one at my home station 7am one morning last week. An old git was demanding to use some railcard or other that wasn't valid until 09.30. All windows were open, TVM was working, Gateline were selling tickets, but I was amazed how quickly a long queue built up behind this difficult customer, who refused several requests to step aside and allow someone else to be served.

(In the end, I believe the office sold him the ticket to get rid - and Gateline, who knew him of old, refused to let him through as his ticket would not be valid for another 2 1/2 hours.)

 

[yorkie]

They should simply sell the ticket, rapidly and without quibble, writing 'restrictions advised' or 'valid after hh:mm' on the ticket (and tipping off the gateline if appropriate).

 

[Chris999999]

This is really stupid. If I buy a time restricted ticket on line, I can pick it up at any time at a TVM, even though that same TVM will refuse to sell me that same ticket.

 

[SWTCommuter]

I therefore needed to renew the ticket, as I was travelling that day. I arrived at the station, with only one window open. 2 Ticket machines in working order, but I can't renew an annual season ticket on that.

Annual season tickets can be renewed up to seven days in advance, as long as there is no break in continuity. That flexibility makes it easier to pick a time when the ticket office isn't busy.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Annual season tickets can be renewed up to seven days in advance, as long as there is no break in continuity. That flexibility makes it easier to pick a time when the ticket office isn't busy.

No good when you have a season ticket loan and can't afford to buy the ticket until that has come through.

 

[najaB]

No good when you have a season ticket loan and can't afford to buy the ticket until that has come through.

Buy day returns?

 

[Wolfie]

No good when you have a season ticket loan and can't afford to buy the ticket until that has come through.

Buy it on a credit card... up to six weeks to pay the bill... simples...

 

[Flamingo]

They should simply sell the ticket, rapidly and without quibble, writing 'restrictions advised' or 'valid after hh:mm' on the ticket (and tipping off the gateline if appropriate).

I was more surprised at how quickly (and unpredictably) a queue built up, despite the efforts of all there to keep it moving...

 

[MikeWh]

Buy it on a credit card... up to six weeks to pay the bill... simples...

Some loans are made in the form of a cheque payable to the TOC concerned. Depends on the company.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Buy day returns?

Yes, that's what you do until the cheque arrives. But when you've got the cheque, you get the season ticket. That will usually mean buying it on the day of travel, which was the inference in my original reply.

 

[najaB]

Yes, that's what you do until the cheque arrives. But when you've got the cheque, you get the season ticket. That will usually mean buying it on the day of travel, which was the inference in my original reply.

Ah, I understand now - sorry if I came across as being snooty.

 

[455driver]

Ah, I understand now - sorry if I came across as being snooty.

Yeah, pack it in,that's my job!

 

[Deerfold]

Buy it on a credit card... up to six weeks to pay the bill... simples...

If you've a high enough credit limit.

 

[Antman]

It is a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station with an open ticket office, unless you have permission from an authorised person. The existence of a queue, irrespective of length, is not a defence.

It is a criminal offence to intentionally avoid paying.

As for length of queue, how long is a piece of string? How long can you reasonably expect intending passengers to wait? In practice common sense usually applies.

 

[najaB]

It is a criminal offence to intentionally avoid paying.

According to the Railway Byelaws:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

The only exception is where

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

So, yes, it is indeed a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket.

That is not to say that it isn't a separate offence to attempt to travel without paying:

(3)If any person:
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

If you have every intention to pay but don't (or even if you have paid but not kept your ticket), you would be in breach of the Byelaws by getting on the train or passing a ticket barrier without a ticket.

 

[Antman]

According to the Railway Byelaws:


The only exception is where

So, yes, it is indeed a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket.

That is not to say that it isn't a separate offence to attempt to travel without paying:

If you have every intention to pay but don't (or even if you have paid but not kept your ticket), you would be in breach of the Byelaws by getting on the train or passing a ticket barrier without a ticket.

Well yes the exceptions cover the reasons not to have bought a ticket

 

[najaB]

Well yes the exceptions cover the reasons not to have bought a ticket

You will notice that 'the queue was too long' is not listed.

 

[Antman]

You will notice that 'the queue was too long' is not listed.

That could arguably be covered by (i) but staff do normally instruct passengers to pay on the train or at their destination, or do you think they should have to wait an hour for the next train because there was a queue at the ticket office?

 

[najaB]

That could arguably be covered by (i)

I think you mean point (iii). There is no way it could be covered by point (i) as the ticket office is open.

...but staff do normally instruct passengers to pay on the train or at their destination

I would say that they occasionally say to pay on the train. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been at a station and seen it happen.

...or do you think they should have to wait an hour for the next train because there was a queue at the ticket office?

What I think has no effect on what the law says.

 

[Antman]

I think you mean point (iii). There is no way it could be covered by point (i) as the ticket office is open.I would say that they occasionally say to pay on the train. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been at a station and seen it happen.What I think has no effect on what the law says.

It could arguably be covered by (i) if an out of order ticket machine had caused the queue at the ticket office window. Anyway as the opening post in this thread suggests common sense is applied.

 

[najaB]

It could arguably be covered by (i) if an out of order ticket machine had caused the queue at the ticket office window.

It doesn't matter why the queue formed. Even if it was the second coming of Christ, as long as the ticket office is open a passenger must buy a ticket or be given authority to travel by an officer of the railway without one.

 

[Antman]

It doesn't matter why the queue formed. Even if it was the second coming of Christ, as long as the ticket office is open a passenger must buy a ticket or be given authority to travel by an officer of the railway without one.

I wonder if the second coming of Christ has ever been used as an excuse for not having a ticket?

 

[island]

It could arguably be covered by (i) if an out of order ticket machine had caused the queue at the ticket office window. Anyway as the opening post in this thread suggests common sense is applied.

No it isn't covered, arguably or not. If the ticket office is open, you have to have a ticket unless a member of staff or a notice tells you you don't. End of.

 

[Flamingo]

I wonder if the second coming of Christ has ever been used as an excuse for not having a ticket?

It's one of the few excuses I haven't heard yet!