Quality vs Cost and the slide to the bottom

[Peter Sarf]

Bourne out of the "Things that used to be common place in people's homes" thread.

Things that used to be common place in people’s homes

Barnsley-based SR Gent plc was once M+S's main clothing supplier but went out of business in the mid 2000's as the high street retailer switched to overseas suppliers. This may, or may not, have broadly co-incided with the perceived change of non-food product quality.

www.railforums.co.uk

Even in my lifetime (late 20s) they’ve got worse. Trousers I bought when I was 18/19 lasted 6+ years, I have a pair I bought 3 years ago with holed pockets, failed seams and split hems…. I’ve not got weightier etc!

What is the inflation-adjusted relative cost though? If you're paying the same or more for lower quality there's an issue, if you're paying less then you get what you pay for.

Appreciate this wasn't directed at me but as I've had the same experience I'll jump in.

Just looked through my old emails for M&S order acknowledgements, the crap trousers I last bought in May 2018 were exactly the same price as the good ones I bought in September 2015, so in real terms marginally cheaper but not by much. A real terms price decrease of probably no more than 5% doesn't come close to justifying the large drop in quality.

These kind of things always bring to my mind the quote attributed to Henry Royce "The quality will remain long after the price is forgotten."

Which on a low level is the case when I have bought something (like an item of clothing say) and get annoyed that say 2 years later it is defunct due to some fault or poor production quality problem. The annoyance in my mind is always greater than the recollection of 'only having paid a bargain price for it'

Having said that I fully appreciate that for some people price is a big driver and they have little choice in the matter.

Um - TIME FOR A NEW THREAD.

 

[westv]

I've discussed this in the past with my wife.
Most people want value. I reason that there is no value without quality.

 

[mikeg]

I suspect @westv has a point, things are designed to what people want.

When it comes to certain goods, it can actually be wise to avoid mainstream consumer brands and go for professional or semi professional equipment. My main PC was actually originally designed as a micro server but supports somewhat unofficially a slot power pcie graphics card. Manufactured in 2016 it's still going strong today and whilst it won't run Windows 11 and took a while to get full driver support for 10, with which it now works great, it's also Ubuntu certified, easily serviceable and well built.
Another thing is I laugh at people who buy Beats or other expensive consumer headphones. Instead I use Beyerdynamic DT250 80 ohm headphones. With an aftermarket cable (the official one proved to be the weak link, but at least is detachable) they're only just beginning to show their age nearly ten years on. And the sound quality is far better than more expensive consumer models, all for £120 at the time.
I'm sure there's also some bias in the 'this good old device is still going strong after all these others have broken' logic though. By definition it's already outlived crappier devices.
Like with hifi people say that's not built like it used to be. But compare that amplifier that cost several weeks wages from the 80s working perfectly with what most people bought (a crappy Amstrad system long gone in the bin) the decline looks less steep, to give you an extreme example.

Also not only about costs, believe Bentley is one of the less reliable car brands. At the other end I was leafing through an old issue of Which about washing machines. The most reliable brand? Miele. The second. White Knight. The first is a premium well made product, the second may be cheap but is simple with little to go wrong.

 

[brad465]

Outsourcing manufacturing to countries where costs are much lower, but so is quality, and also a desire to keep replacing goods to help company profits will together explain the decline in longevity of goods these days I think.

 

[mikeg]

Outsourcing manufacturing to countries where costs are much lower, but so is quality, and also a desire to keep replacing goods to help company profits will together explain the decline in longevity of goods these days I think.

Indeed though Italian labour costs aren't especially low and I've had nothing but trouble with Italian engineering. I'm sure they make some good stuff.
I think the main difference is that a company that outsources is focused on reducing cost at all costs so to speak. A company that doesn't values every step of its products manufacturing process and therefore is more likely to manufacture quality goods.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Outsourcing manufacturing to countries where costs are much lower, but so is quality, and also a desire to keep replacing goods to help company profits will together explain the decline in longevity of goods these days I think.

You're reminding me of the inexorable march towards - disposable life style. I think the environmentalists will win that battle for us. If it costs to dispose of a product then you are more likely to try to repair it.

Indeed though Italian labour costs aren't especially low and I've had nothing but trouble with Italian engineering. I'm sure they make some good stuff.
I think the main difference is that a company that outsources is focused on reducing cost at all costs so to speak. A company that doesn't values every step of its products manufacturing process and therefore is more likely to manufacture quality goods.

Yes I see a loss of quality control when parts are sourced at arms length. Possibly oven via a middle man.

 

[Bevan Price]

Outsourcing manufacturing to countries where costs are much lower, but so is quality, and also a desire to keep replacing goods to help company profits will together explain the decline in longevity of goods these days I think.

Sometimes. But not always. For a while, I bought "good name" UK-made shirts, but the collars often became worn & frayed within a year or so. Then I started buying cheapish shirts from market stalls. Some are still in good condition after 30-40 years of regular use.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've discussed this in the past with my wife.
Most people want value. I reason that there is no value without quality.

Indeed - 'value' is the crossing point between cost and quality and varies from person to person i suspect - tho probably not infinitely variable.

Money spent on stuff that lasts not very long is money wasted and thus not good value IMHO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2022 ==

I suspect @westv has a point, things are designed to what people want.

When it comes to certain goods, it can actually be wise to avoid mainstream consumer brands and go for professional or semi professional equipment. My main PC was actually originally designed as a micro server but supports somewhat unofficially a slot power pcie graphics card. Manufactured in 2016 it's still going strong today and whilst it won't run Windows 11 and took a while to get full driver support for 10, with which it now works great, it's also Ubuntu certified, easily serviceable and well built.
Another thing is I laugh at people who buy Beats or other expensive consumer headphones. Instead I use Beyerdynamic DT250 80 ohm headphones. With an aftermarket cable (the official one proved to be the weak link, but at least is detachable) they're only just beginning to show their age nearly ten years on. And the sound quality is far better than more expensive consumer models, all for £120 at the time.
I'm sure there's also some bias in the 'this good old device is still going strong after all these others have broken' logic though. By definition it's already outlived crappier devices.
Like with hifi people say that's not built like it used to be. But compare that amplifier that cost several weeks wages from the 80s working perfectly with what most people bought (a crappy Amstrad system long gone in the bin) the decline looks less steep, to give you an extreme example.

Also not only about costs, believe Bentley is one of the less reliable car brands. At the other end I was leafing through an old issue of Which about washing machines. The most reliable brand? Miele. The second. White Knight. The first is a premium well made product, the second may be cheap but is simple with little to go wrong.

Points well made I think. And our Miele washing machine has done 25 years and not yet needed a service. I can't report back on Bentleys tho as unable to stretch to one of those...

 

[ComUtoR]

I can't report back on Bentleys tho as unable to stretch to one of those...

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[MattRat]

It's not just about quality. Most westerners wouldn't say the Russians make quality goods, but at least they are easy to repair.

 

[WesternLancer]

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You could get circa 15 miele washing machines for that.....

 

[MattRat]

You could get circa 15 miele washing machines for that.....

Also it's not the whole story, as most of the cost is really in fixing it

Only time it would make sense is if you made a YouTube channel about terrible car purchases.....

 

[XAM2175]

Indeed though Italian labour costs aren't especially low and I've had nothing but trouble with Italian engineering. I'm sure they make some good stuff.

At a cinema I used to work at we had two Cinemeccanica projectors that had been made in the early '60s and that are still going strong today, although in fairness they have had quite a few spare parts put into them over the years. We used to joke that you could tell when they were about to have a breakdown if they stopped leaking oil - because that meant there was none left inside it

 

[MattRat]

At a cinema I used to work at we had two Cinemeccanica projectors that had been made in the early '60s and that are still going strong today, although in fairness they have had quite a few spare parts put into them over the years. We used to joke that you could tell when they were about to have a breakdown if they stopped leaking oil - because that meant there was none left inside it

I'm pretty certain that applies to most things technically, as oil seepage is a thing.

 

[johnnychips]

I wonder if anybody still knows how to darn - I don’t but my grandma did - now that socks are five pairs for two quid, and their quality is certainly acceptable. Whether the conditions in the factory where they are made are is another matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wonder if anybody still knows how to darn - I don’t but my grandma did - now that socks are five pairs for two quid, and their quality is certainly acceptable. Whether the conditions in the factory where they are made are is another matter.

Some darning does occasionally go on in this household as it happens.

and if you want sock in your favourite fabric style you can't match that price I'm afraid

Socks

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[Strathclyder]

It's not just about quality. Most westerners wouldn't say the Russians make quality goods, but at least they are easy to repair.

The less complex it is, the less likely it is to conk out. And if it does conk out, it's easy to fix as you say.

Take the Lada Riva (or the VAZ family if you prefer) for instance, on the subject of Russian products: the butt of countless jokes and overall derided for being unrefined/cheap/poorly made/vastly inferior to it's rivals in general (these complaints weren't entirely without merit of course), but if/when something on it did end up breaking, chances are it could be easily fixed, even on the side of the road if need be. Mechanically, Rivas/VAZs are damn near bomb-proof. This is hardly surprising given how harsh & unforgiving Russian/Siberian roads can be, particularly in the winters they experience. They had to be durable, they had to be basic, they had to be easy to fix if something broke.

 

[dgl]

See you can have things made in places like China and still make a decent product, Music Tribe, who own a few live/professional/prosumer audio companies makes nearly everything in China (and Malaysia also soon), yet as it owns the factory complex (with workers quarters, leisure and heath facilities), and makes what it can on site, it can keep a good eye on quality. My keyboards, mixers and drumachines from their original company are built just fine.

Basically you can have quality goods made anywhere if the people are trained well enough and have the equipment required, a lot of british made stuff was terrible yet we do not have the low wage economy to blame for it.

 

[MattRat]

See you can have things made in places like China and still make a decent product, Music Tribe, who own a few live/professional/prosumer audio companies makes nearly everything in China (and Malaysia also soon), yet as it owns the factory complex (with workers quarters, leisure and heath facilities), and makes what it can on site, it can keep a good eye on quality. My keyboards, mixers and drumachines from their original company are built just fine.

Basically you can have quality goods made anywhere if the people are trained well enough and have the equipment required, a lot of british made stuff was terrible yet we do not have the low wage economy to blame for it.

Wasn't that always a management issue, like British Leyland?

 

[birchesgreen]

The less complex it is, the less likely it is to conk out. And if it does conk out, it's easy to fix as you say.

Take the Lada Riva (or the VAZ family if you prefer) for instance, on the subject of Russian products: the butt of countless jokes and overall derided for being unrefined/cheap/poorly made/vastly inferior to it's rivals in general (these complaints weren't entirely without merit of course), but if/when something on it did end up breaking, chances are it could be easily fixed, even on the side of the road if need be. Mechanically, Rivas/VAZs are damn near bomb-proof. This is hardly surprising given how harsh & unforgiving Russian/Siberian roads can be, particularly in the winters they experience. They had to be durable, they had to be basic, they had to be easy to fix if something broke.

My first car was a Riva, as you can imagine the heater in a Riva is amazing. At this time of year i wish my Fiesta had the same!

 

[dgl]

My first car was a Riva, as you can imagine the heater in a Riva is amazing. At this time of year i wish my Fiesta had the same!

One of the nice things about my Sisters car is that it has automatic climate control, great on a winters day as it won't turn on the blower until there is heat in the system.

Of course whilst it's true that simpler things are simpler to fix it's also true that the extra complexities in modern vehicles do mean that they need to be maintained less often, so it's wings and roundabouts. Modern technology also allows cars to run a lot better and you no longer get the issues with carbourettors or points.

 

[Peter Sarf]

One of the nice things about my Sisters car is that it has automatic climate control, great on a winters day as it won't turn on the blower until there is heat in the system.

Of course whilst it's true that simpler things are simpler to fix it's also true that the extra complexities in modern vehicles do mean that they need to be maintained less often, so it's wings and roundabouts. Modern technology also allows cars to run a lot better and you no longer get the issues with carbourettors or points.

I am tempted to argue the other way. A lot of clever features mean the car has more to go wrong on it and more parts that can go obsolete.

What I have not noticed on my Vectra is the hot air blower for the windscreen - must be an electric heater in there as I do not have to wait for the engine to warm up.

 

[Strathclyder]

My first car was a Riva, as you can imagine the heater in a Riva is amazing. At this time of year i wish my Fiesta had the same!

Aye, that was always an advantage the Riva range had over it's contemporaries; hardly surprising given the market it was primarily designed for.

 

[MattRat]

I am tempted to argue the other way. A lot of clever features mean the car has more to go wrong on it and more parts that can go obsolete.

Shame the public don't think that way. They had to put a bunch of tech in the Dacia cars to satisfy customers, defeating the point of those cars

 

[DerekC]

Based on my experience, cars are very much more reliable than they used to be, tech and all - and they need a lot less servicing, too. And the same is true of things like consumer electronics.

 

[MattRat]

Based on my experience, cars are very much more reliable than they used to be, tech and all - and they need a lot less servicing, too. And the same is true of things like consumer electronics.

But they'd be even more reliable with less tech. And is it wrong for me to want a basic car with no added fat?

 

[Peter Sarf]

But they'd be even more reliable with less tech. And is it wrong for me to want a basic car with no added fat?

Added fat. Yes I have noticed that as engines have got more economical the cars they are in are getting bigger. The Fiat 500 is a lot bigger than it used to be. My Vauxhall Carlton (Executive Class car from 1994) is now lower than most new/current "small" family cars.

 

[MattRat]

Added fat. Yes I have noticed that as engines have got more economical the cars they are in are getting bigger. The Fiat 500 is a lot bigger than it used to be. My Vauxhall Carlton (Executive Class car from 1994) is now lower than most new/current "small" family cars.

Part of that is to do with all the 'safety tech' which apparently means structural parts need to be thicker than the Fort Knox vault and filled with all kinds of rubbish, rather than just building a better shape. If you want to understand my point, look at 2000s cars in particular compared to now. A bigger focus on safety, but you could still get a small car.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes. I notice my Vectra (2005) is smaller on the inside than my slightly smaller on the outside Carlton (1993) of about twice the age.