Public TRUST system

[atwales]

Is there any public TRUST system that allows people of the public to gain access to the same information that people on the railway can find out?

This would be really helpful to see what sets are booked for what services etc...

I have been told by a few LM guards that GEMINI is public but have never found out how this works or where to find it..

Does anyone know of any similar pieces of software or online equipment that can be used to find this information?

Thanks

 

[Ferret]

Is there any public TRUST system that allows people of the public to gain access to the same information that people on the railway can find out?

This would be really helpful to see what sets are booked for what services etc...

I have been told by a few LM guards that GEMINI is public but have never found out how this works or where to find it..

Does anyone know of any similar pieces of software or online equipment that can be used to find this information?

Thanks

Things like Gemini and Genius are only public because some mongtards leak the passwords. I'd hate to be the first person to be sacked for that, but believe me, that's coming....

 

[8J]

Things like Gemini and Genius are only public because some mongtards leak the passwords. I'd hate to be the first person to be sacked for that, but believe me, that's coming....

I think the word mongtards is an understatement. I don't go spotting, but speak to people who regularly do and I almost think that not knowing what is diagrammed to run makes their experience better. The element of suprise if you like...

 

[DarloRich]

Is there any public TRUST system that allows people of the public to gain access to the same information that people on the railway can find out?

This would be really helpful to see what sets are booked for what services etc...

I have been told by a few LM guards that GEMINI is public but have never found out how this works or where to find it..

Does anyone know of any similar pieces of software or online equipment that can be used to find this information?

Thanks

No there isn't a public version of the system. Why? Because you dont need it!

As Ferret says it is only in the public domain because of leaks.

 

[Ferret]

I think the word mongtards is an understatement. I don't go spotting, but speak to people who regularly do and I almost think that not knowing what is diagrammed to run makes their experience better. The element of suprise if you like...

I don't see why anyone would risk their job so that a spotter on the end of the platform can be in the know! Ludicrous behaviour!

 

[8J]

I don't see why anyone would risk their job so that a spotter on the end of the platform can be in the know! Ludicrous behaviour!

There is no harm in informing a spotter of a loco etc that you or a member of staff knows is running, but giving them open access is a no go. Where I work, we don't get many "special workings" anyway

 

[Ferret]

There is no harm in informing a spotter of a loco etc that you or a member of staff knows is running, but giving them open access is a no go. Where I work, we don't get many "special workings" anyway

This. Controlled passing info of charters or special workings is the accepted norm and serves the enthusiast community well. Wanting full access to Genius etc is laughable!

 

[greatkingrat]

A year or two ago the idea of having full access to the WTT data and real time running information would have been considered laughable.

I am sure information about which units are running each train will enter the public domain sooner or later.

 

[GB]

I am sure information about which units are running each train will enter the public domain sooner or later.

Well untill it is, the stuff remains private and those with legitimate access should be using some discretion as well as a bit of common sense.

 

[michael769]

It is enevitable that it will go public, and why not. As long as the railways recieve subsidy from the taxpayers it must accept that its activities should be subject to detailed public scrutiny.

There is no reason to prevent access other than being awkward for the sake of being awkward, or perhaps because if the real reasons behind some disruptions and delays became public it might result in the industry having some explaining to do (like NRs recently revealed inability to adequately maintain the latches on their toilet doors).

But that is not good good reason for staff to be leaking passwords without authorisation!

 

[DarloRich]

It is enevitable that it will go public, and why not. As long as the railways recieve subsidy from the taxpayers it must accept that its activities should be subject to detailed public scrutiny.

There is no reason to prevent access other than being awkward for the sake of being awkward, or perhaps because if the real reasons behind some disruptions and delays became public it might result in the industry having some explaining to do (like NRs recently revealed inability to adequately maintain the latches on their toilet doors).

But that is not good good reason for staff to be leaking passwords without authorisation!

what spotter wibble. Most people who know this system exists want this information to provide some sort of pathetic one upmanship over other spotters.

What reason is there for this information to be made public?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I agree with much of what has been said so far on this thread, what I find strange is that NR can or will not put up the internet the TD mapping screens that they have and are presumably now running all over their WAN. Instead they give raw data to various organisations/individuals to work out what to do with it themselves ("open train times" has come up with a simulation of this for a minor piece of the network, well done, more routes please).
As for unit/loco allocations, that is possibly of less interest or use to the public in general but it would be nice to see wxw.whatismytrainformedoftoday.xxx but we may have to wait a long time for that.

 

[pjnathanail]

How easily accessible are the passwords and login areas-are they googleable?
If so, surely the TOCs/NR would have changed the passwords by now, or is it not as simple as that?

 

[Ferret]

what spotter wibble. Most people who know this system exists want this information to provide some sort of pathetic one upmanship over other spotters.

What reason is there for this information to be made public?

Quite. Your aim at the head of the nail is very accurate this evening DarloRich!

Is it any wonder spotters are seen is geeks when people post drivel like that?!

 

[michael769]

What reason is there for this information to be made public?

Because many travellers are tired of having to put up with vague, innacurate pr non-existant explanations of what is going on when trains are messed up.

It's not about spotterish one upmanship, it is about ordinary travellers being told the truth in a timely manner when things go wrong, and taxpayers getting to see what all that subsidy is getting to pay for.

And to be honest it would probably help front line staff to keep passengers informed given how often they too appear to be left if the dark without support when it all goes wrong.

 

[DarloRich]

Because many travellers are tired of having to put up with vague, innacurate pr non-existant explanations of what is going on when trains are messed up.

It's not about spotterish one upmanship, it is about ordinary travellers being told the truth in a timely manner when things go wrong, and taxpayers getting to see what all that subsidy is getting to pay for.

And to be honest it would probably help front line staff to keep passengers informed given how often they too appear to be left if the dark without support when it all goes wrong.

it isn't some magical silver bullet to end all of the passengers woes you know! The system isn't an oracle - What do you think it actually tells you?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Back in the bad old days of Central Trains and Railtrack I stood on Kidderminster station waiting for my morning commute to hear a member of station staff announce over the PA:

I forget the exact words so no quote marks!

We have just heard on BBC radio that there will be no services until about lunchtime.

That is why passengers need more access to online data. as for spotterinfo.com who knows.

 

[DarloRich]

and as i always say there isn't a big Haynes manual of railway operations on the shelf in control.

"whats that drive? You have lost all air pressure? OK let me turn to page 45678 appendix f subsection iv - it says 'ere class 150 total air loss - 57 minutes till you will be rolling again!"

 

[snail]

Because many travellers are tired of having to put up with vague, innacurate pr non-existant explanations of what is going on when trains are messed up.

Knowing what kind of rolling stock is on my delayed train doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me. The information now in the public domain about running times is perfectly sufficient for travellers. Publishing additional information for the sake of people stood at platform ends with cameras and notebooks does sound like a step too far.

 

[Tomnick]

Isn't there already limited delay attribution information in the public domain? I'm sure I've seen reasons given for delays on one of the 'open data' sites. I'm not sure it's generally much use though - is it that helpful to know that the delay to your local train from Manchester has been attributed to a failed freight train at Eastleigh? Also bear in mind that delays can be wrongly attributed and then disputed - is it fair to publicly blame Network Rail, for example, for something that ends up recoded to a TOC?

As for releasing details of what's working a particular train - I'm struggling to understand that one, other than for the benefit of enthusiasts (which doesn't present a very good case, I'm afraid!).

 

[Ferret]

Knowing what kind of rolling stock is on my delayed train doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me. The information now in the public domain about running times is perfectly sufficient for travellers. Publishing additional information for the sake of people stood at platform ends with cameras and notebooks does sound like a step too far.

And guess what - when there's disruption, Genius/Gemini/whatever does not necessarily get updated immediately with unit allocations. That often gets done when the controller has got the service back in some sort of order...

 

[Welshman]

No there isn't a public version of the system. Why? Because you dont need it!

As Ferret says it is only in the public domain because of leaks.

I can see it having a limited appeal in the public domain.

For example, I once had a seat booked in Coach "K" of the 1500 from Rhyl to London Euston. I have sufficient knowledge to know that Coach "K" is the equivalent of Coach "D" in a double Voyager, and that the 1500 departure [1358 off Holyhead], is the only up service from Rhyl to be formed of a double Voyager.

But which way round would the sets be formed? And to complicate matters, which way round would the individual sets be formed?

There are no "Wait here for Coach..." markers at Rhyl, as the need does not normally arise, being served mainly by 2 or 3 car ATW dmus. Fortunately, there was a member of the station staff around, of whom I enquired, and he consulted his computer, informing me that on that particular day,Coach "K" would be the second coach from the front, and which lamp-post to stand by accordingly. Saving me a possible sprint from one end of the train to the other along a crowded platform as the train was drawing in with heavy luggage [remembering there are no corridor connections from one Voyager set to the other].

On another occasion, my wife was travelling with her bicycle [ticket provided - all above board], and the cycle space on ATWs 175s is in Coach "C". But would "C" be at the rear or the front? [There's no yellow on the coupling bar of a 175 as there's no first class]. Now you can't go through the train with a bike, nor is it good and safe practice to be charging up and down the platform with one in the minute or so the train is scheduled to stop. Again, my friendly station assistant was very useful. But what if it had been an unsupervised station?

Why is there such reluctance for such information to be in the public domain? What safety-critical issue is being served by it's remaining a secret? One thing that impressed me with travel in Germany was every train had a detailed diagram of how many coaches in the consit and where on the platform each particular coach would be. None of this simply grudging "First-class at the rear/front" or "This train is formed of 8 coaches" stuff, but really useful information to make the journey far less stressful.

 

[Qwerty133]

Isn't there already limited delay attribution information in the public domain? I'm sure I've seen reasons given for delays on one of the 'open data' sites. I'm not sure it's generally much use though - is it that helpful to know that the delay to your local train from Manchester has been attributed to a failed freight train at Eastleigh? Also bear in mind that delays can be wrongly attributed and then disputed - is it fair to publicly blame Network Rail, for example, for something that ends up recoded to a TOC?

As for releasing details of what's working a particular train - I'm struggling to understand that one, other than for the benefit of enthusiasts (which doesn't present a very good case, I'm afraid!).

err so if you can be bothered to look you will know the train is shortformed and if it shows which way round the train is you can stand at the best place on the platform

 

[DarloRich]

EDIT - post deleted - I give up

 

[Yew]

What reason is there for this information to be made public?

So that I can arrange my travel around sprinters instead of pacers? I'm sure Paul will agree

 

[DarloRich]

So that I can arrange my travel around sprinters instead of pacers? I'm sure Paul will agree

:roll: That is a joke right?

 

[wensley]

it isn't some magical silver bullet to end all of the passengers woes you know! The system isn't an oracle - What do you think it actually tells you?

There is certainly some information that the public shouldn't see...information on incidents is a case of 'too much information', and there is no good reason for the average person to see sensitive information, be that commercially or operationally.

Next people will be calling for control logs to be published

 

[Tom]

As for releasing details of what's working a particular train - I'm struggling to understand that one, other than for the benefit of enthusiasts (which doesn't present a very good case, I'm afraid!).

For charters, I see no good reason.

For actual passenger services, the numbers aren't the valuable data - the metadata that you can extrapolate from it. Here's a couple of ideas that we can't do at the moment that would be helpful...

* Toilets - are there any on board?
* What end is first class?
* How many seats are on board?
* Is it short formed?
* Cycle spaces, how many? Are they reserved? (for instance on SWT, a cycle space on a 159 is generally reserved but a 444 isn't)
* Number of disabled spaces and more importantly where they will be

And from that you can make recommendations if a user provides criteria. For instance, you can say whether someone should look to travel on another service.

Those are some of the things that I'd like in Realtime Trains.

 

[yorkie]

As for releasing details of what's working a particular train - I'm struggling to understand that one, other than for the benefit of enthusiasts (which doesn't present a very good case, I'm afraid!).

This cropped up last August.

As someone who wouldn't know the difference between one class and another, I do still have a very real need to know . . . .

When I take my bike on East Coast trains, I need to know which end of the platform to be standing at when boarding at an intermediate station. It can even come as a surprise to dispatch staff to find that an electric set has been substituted for a booked HST or vice versa, and if that happens, then running along 200 meters of platform full of passengers with a bike can be quite hazardous.
But to be helpful, then the information would have to reflect the actual running set, and not just the 'booked' set. It would be enough if the information was available to platform staff (via radio to the Station Management Office), but I've known that information to come back to them with the class of the 'booked' set, and not the running set.
A similar need to know applies to sets running in reverse formation. I've known that information to be communicated to a station if the Guard has notified the station by phone while en route, and not otherwise communicated by any on-line systems being used by Station staff. (FGW seem to be more effective at identifying reverse formation HSTs than EC, in my experience, but whether that is because they use another layer of procedures and comms., or they use available data more effectively, I couldn't tell)

Hope that helps.

I don't care what number the loco or coaches are or anything like that, but as DaveNewcastle says, I am very interested in what type of train it is. Which way round the train is would be nice to have too - but less important.

As others have said, it can be useful to know of short-formed trains and trains in reverse formation.

In addition, one of my reasons for wanting such a feature is to see whether a service is diagramed to be run by appropriate stock, for example if there's a choice it would be more comfortable to make a long journey on a regional express unit than a class 150. For really long journeys it would also be useful to be able to pick a service equiped with a buffet car for an evening meal....

Yes, I know many spotters & bashers would like to know where a unit they 'require' will be, and I also know that some people would give that as a good reason not to let that information be public () and I can't find any justifiable reason for the general public to know exactly which unit or loco number is allocated, but the type of train (and which way round it is) would be useful to "normal" passengers.

 

[wbbminerals]

I see no harm in releasing loco / unit numbers, especially on passenger trains. The information that could be gained could benefit regular passengers as well as enthusiasts.

Talking about spotters thinking they are somewhat 'elite' knowing this information, well surely this is the case now with those having logins to 'Genius' or whatever. Releasing this information would mean anyone could access the data so why would any 'spotterish one upmanship' still occur?

It is great that there is already so much 'gen' out there thanks to Network Rail and sites such as Realtime Trains.