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Prosecution? What will happen next

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jb

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You can't impose rules to say you must buy tickets before travel, then have onboard staff happily selling tickets to try and provide excellent customer service - it sends out mixed signals, and doesn't help the passenger on the day that it isn't a nice friendly conductor, but a revenue officer that will go for a prosecution or a hefty unofficial 'fine' of £80.

OK, let's take the above as given. What is the relative feasibility, in theory and in practice, of the following two options? Just to be clear, given the above they are mutually exclusive and comprehensive (there are no others).

1. No rules.

2. 100% implementation of rules.
 
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jon0844

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You bring in new rules that state you must have a ticket before travel. If you get on a train without one, you've broken the new rules and are dealt with accordingly. Ditto at the destination station, with a fraud prosecution should you just walk out without paying at all.

The exception being, of course, when you couldn't actually get a ticket before travel due to no fault of your own.

That seems quite simple to me. It's certainly how it works elsewhere, when penalty fares are in operation.
 

jon0844

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I think the current mix of signs that send out mixed signals is a mess. Some say you must buy in advance, then you see a sign/poster saying you can buy on the train but only a full-price anytime ticket.. then if you don't see the TM you get a £80 'penalty' at the gate.

The penalty fare system isn't perfect, but at least the rules are pretty clear. People can argue them if they want, but they're set out for all to see.
 

Flamingo

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Bottom line is, who is going to deal with them? As Guards, we get told avoid delays at all costs, avoid confrontations as our personal safety is at risk as lone workers, and hit revenue targets.

Trying to charge Full Open tickets goes against all our instructions, as if the person refuses to pay or give their details then there is nothing we can do, and if they kick off we get told we shouldn't have antagonised them.
 
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jon0844

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For Intercity services, I can see how you can sell full price tickets on board. There's a lot longer between stations for one thing.

But you must know that I wish you had more powers, or that management would back you up when you want to kick people off - on the basis that these delays would soon cease once offenders realised that was what was going to happen.

Hey, it's not going to happen though is it!
 

Flamingo

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Not any time soon. Although I hear rumours that our Revenue Protection side are shortly to prove they have teeth, in some parts of the country anyway! Not near London though, can't go upsetting the Reading corridor.
 

sheff1

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Bottom line is, who is going to deal with them? As Guards, we get told avoid delays at all costs, avoid confrontations as our personal safety is at risk as lone workers, and hit revenue targets.

Trying to charge Full Open tickets goes against all our instructions, as if the person refuses to pay or give their details then there is nothing we can do, and if they kick off we get told we shouldn't have antagonised them.

Any change needs to start at the top. Having rules and then not backing staff who try and enforce them is totally pointless.

Other European countries manage perfectly well - everyone knows no ticket = 'penalty' fare or worse. Complaints to 'customer services' will get you nowhere. Of course, a major advantage in said countries is that the carrying of ID for production to authorised persons is compulsory.
 
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island

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There won't be any change at the top until their incentives shift. The delay minutes system means that it's foolhardy for TOCs to intentionally delay a train for revenue reasons.
 

455driver

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The delay minutes system means that it's foolhardy for TOCs to intentionally delay a train for revenue reasons.

It also means TOCs wont hold a connection for a late running service (FGW excepted), surely its better to hold the connection and make everyone a little bit late rather than have an on time service with half the passengers left behind and them delayed by 30 minutes or even longer.

The thing with "the train must leave on time for the PPM" is that it doesnt actually take into account what is best for the passengers*, at Weybridge I will frequently delay my train by a couple of minutes (guard willing) to connect with the late runner just arriving from Chertsey because otherwise the passengers have to wait 27 minutes (fast train) or 30 minutes (stopper) for the next train.


* dont worry I havent gone soft, normal service will resume shortly! :lol:
 

Greenback

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The Swiss system is rightly held in high regard by enthusiasts in the UK. Yet they are very strict when it comes to invalid tickets or ticketless travel. What is is that is done well there that cnanot be done here? Is it just a cultural thing?
 

455driver

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The Swiss system is rightly held in high regard by enthusiasts in the UK. Yet they are very strict when it comes to invalid tickets or ticketless travel. What is is that is done well there that cnanot be done here? Is it just a cultural thing?

The Swiss have much longer station dwell times for a start, if we tried that here then the service would have to be reduced which would just increase the over-crowding problem.
 

island

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The Swiss system is rightly held in high regard by enthusiasts in the UK. Yet they are very strict when it comes to invalid tickets or ticketless travel. What is is that is done well there that cnanot be done here? Is it just a cultural thing?

Yes it is. A substantial selection of people here have it wedged in their head that paying for (a/the right) train ticket is optional unless the nasty man makes them pay or they run into some nasty ticket gates. People justify it to themselves in many different ways, including "the private companies are making too much profit/not paying enough tax", "it's too complicated to use a TVM", and "I've paid for my journey so why should it matter if I get on the wrong train/TOC/route/whatever".
 

samxool

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Yes it is. A substantial selection of people here have it wedged in their head that paying for (a/the right) train ticket is optional unless the nasty man makes them pay or they run into some nasty ticket gates. People justify it to themselves in many different ways, including "the private companies are making too much profit/not paying enough tax", "it's too complicated to use a TVM", and "I've paid for my journey so why should it matter if I get on the wrong train/TOC/route/whatever".

as a someone who has kept an eye out on blatant fare dodgers for many years, quite simply the staff are not strict enough.
Penalty fares of £20 is too low. 4 or 5 of those a year compared to the hundreds and probably into thousands saved a year is peanuts!
There should be far more barriers, and far more RPIs. And they must also be given the ability to physically restrain someone from leaving the station until they pay up, instead of giving the little darlings worthless warnings, and continue to let them get away with it.
I commute from barrierless station to barrierless station for 2 years in south London. I've never seen an RPI at either station or on the train. I do pay for my train ticket, but fare evasion must be rife, as it must surely be on the nearby tramlink or DLR.
In fact, its stupid. The honour system used at most stations in London are all in low income areas. It ridiculous. Of course people who sponge off benefits aren't going to pay a single sodding penny. Why should they when there's virtually no RPIs and no barriers.
Any public transport must have barriers and RPIs in poor areas. Even the new sodding Boris buses is bringing back the free bus.
You couldn't make it up.
Its the loony left's dream come true.
Give everything to the work-shy benefit scroungers, and make your average Joe pay for it.
thanks Labour!! never will I vote for those scoundrels.
 

185

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Give everything to the work-shy benefit scroungers, and make your average Joe pay for it.
thanks Labour!! never will I vote for those scoundrels.

Not necessarily. In the last 48 hours, the two committing the most serious fraud were infact both city professionals.
- Forged annual (£1170) season ticket, printed at home - doctor.
- Altered annual (£840) season ticket, done with pen, law firm employee, job unknown.

Quite proud to say, as much as I've been called a facist (and everything else) by fraudsters, I've treated them all the same.

Where the system falls down is the sentencing. Judges (who are main right-leaning are issuing hefty penalties to those who work than those who do not work.
 
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Muzer

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as a someone who has kept an eye out on blatant fare dodgers for many years, quite simply the staff are not strict enough.
Penalty fares of £20 is too low. 4 or 5 of those a year compared to the hundreds and probably into thousands saved a year is peanuts!
There should be far more barriers, and far more RPIs. And they must also be given the ability to physically restrain someone from leaving the station until they pay up, instead of giving the little darlings worthless warnings, and continue to let them get away with it.
I commute from barrierless station to barrierless station for 2 years in south London. I've never seen an RPI at either station or on the train. I do pay for my train ticket, but fare evasion must be rife, as it must surely be on the nearby tramlink or DLR.
In fact, its stupid. The honour system used at most stations in London are all in low income areas. It ridiculous. Of course people who sponge off benefits aren't going to pay a single sodding penny. Why should they when there's virtually no RPIs and no barriers.
Any public transport must have barriers and RPIs in poor areas. Even the new sodding Boris buses is bringing back the free bus.
You couldn't make it up.
Its the loony left's dream come true.
Give everything to the work-shy benefit scroungers, and make your average Joe pay for it.
thanks Labour!! never will I vote for those scoundrels.
OK, Mr. Farrage, time to go back to your home...


(Since when was Boris in the Labour party?)
 

maniacmartin

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...they must also be given the ability to physically restrain someone from leaving the station until they pay up ...

Given the quality of training with regards to the NRCoC and the Routeing Guide, I do not support this idea. By all means give RPIs the power to force passengers to disclose their names and addresses, so that a backoffice with access to all of the information can decide, but on the train where the documents aren't even available sounds like a bad idea.
 

455driver

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Where the system falls down is the sentencing. Judges (who are main right-leaning are issuing hefty penalties to those who work than those who do not work.

It all went wrong when the rules were changed so fines are now based on the guilty parties ability to pay, there is no point taking the scummers to court and getting awarded £3.50 to be repaid over a year when you can take some suit wearer to court and get several hundred pounds off them straight away.
 

sheff1

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In fact, its stupid. The honour system used at most stations in London are all in low income areas. It ridiculous. Of course people who sponge off benefits aren't going to pay a single sodding penny. Why should they when there's virtually no RPIs and no barriers.
Any public transport must have barriers and RPIs in poor areas. Even the new sodding Boris buses is bringing back the free bus.
You couldn't make it up.
Its the loony left's dream come true.
Give everything to the work-shy benefit scroungers, and make your average Joe pay for it.
thanks Labour!! never will I vote for those scoundrels.

I seem to have been redirected to the Daily Mail site - b****y hackers, they get everywhere.
 

Flamingo

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As a Labour supporter, I have to say he raises some good points, though.

Bean-counters will say to the penny how much can be saved by not having revenue / barrier staff. The money lost by the lack of them doesn't show on anybody's budget, therefore can be ignored.
 

30907

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The honour system used at most stations in London are all in low income areas.

Are they? I recall (in my younger days) my home station of Shortlands - and plenty of others in the wealthier suburbs - being good examples.
 

jon0844

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One difference between the benefits-claiming person travelling without paying against the lawyer faking a ticket is that the former probably doesn't really care much, and figures not a lot can really be done (and reality proves this). To some, even the threat of going inside (however slim) isn't a problem - some people really are happier inside.

The lawyer probably thinks s/he won't get caught and is of course a huge problem, but I suspect rather rarer than people who simply don't want to pay and laugh in the face of authority. [That said, I am sure we don't appreciate the full scale of fake tickets in use, if the London Travelcards are as big a problem as had been suggested elsewhere on here]

Of course, it's quite obvious that the railway industry would want to go after the people faking or tampering with season tickets, and are more likely to secure a prosecution and a hefty fine. It would justify lengthy investigation, monitoring and a sting with the police cooperating (and taking an interest).

I don't see a relevance of arguing about which group of people commit the most/worst crimes as there are bad people in ALL walks of life.. but making it as easy as it is to just skip paying your fare is still a bad thing - and having a generation of people that only pay if they have to, and actually blame others when they're caught for having the nerve to treat them like criminals, is the problem.

It's not necessarily better to have people just say 'Fair enough mate, you got me' when caught over 'Haven't you f***** jobsworths go anything better to do than pick on me?' but there is a big difference in mindset that has repercussions in all other parts of daily life.
 
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Fare-Cop

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'Having a generation of people that only pay if they have to, and actually blame others when they're caught for having the nerve to treat them like criminals, is the problem.

It's not necessarily better to have people just say 'Fair enough mate, you got me' when caught over 'Haven't you f***** jobsworths go anything better to do than pick on me?' but there is a big difference in mindset that has repercussions in all other parts of daily life.


Well said Jon, that sums a huge part of the problem perfectly well for me

A further factor that cannot be overlooked is that when these people are caught and ask for advice of those of their peers who ought to know better, (some actually work in the industry) a great many go out of their way to find reasons to excuse that largely anti-social behaviour.
 

Flamingo

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Well said Jon, that sums a huge part of the problem perfectly well for me

A further factor that cannot be overlooked is that when these people are caught and ask for advice of those of their peers who ought to know better, (some actually work in the industry) a great many go out of their way to find reasons to excuse that largely anti-social behaviour.

Well said both.
 

jon0844

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It's why I think that small crimes not being dealt with seriously only encourages things to get worse over a fairly short space of time. Short sharp shocks might appear to some do-gooders as being unfair, nasty or over the top, but not if it sorts out the problem before people are expanding their twisted logic of law abiding to push the boundaries even further - having the belief that they're untouchable.

It disappoints me that there are many people in the railway that seem to think it's not worth pursuing some people, without realising that their decision is what makes the problem worse.

Imagine if venues turned a blind eye to people sneaking in to cinemas, theatres, concert halls, or nightclubs, without buying a ticket. Get caught sneaking in, and you'll almost certainly be thrown out very quickly - quite possibly not in a very nice way.

Sure, there's no 'delay' that might cause other problems, but the principle is the same. As a result, I doubt many people go out with the view of sneaking in to somewhere (Not the same as trying to blag your way into a nightclub) even if they'll gladly walk through an open gate to get on a train if the opportunity exists - then get into a strop if caught.
 

jb

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It disappoints me that there are many people in the railway that seem to think it's not worth pursuing some people, without realising that their decision is what makes the problem worse.

I'm sure at least some of them do realise it, and I expect it does their collective head in.

Whilst some of the issue is down to practicability, and there is no doubt that operators "could do more", I think it unrealistic to imply (as the above quote seems to) that these problems are substantially resolvable through unilateral action on the part of the operators. I really don't think they are, except for horrendously expensive and impractical-seeming options such as massive increases in barriering and/or staffing.

Imagine if venues turned a blind eye to people sneaking in to cinemas, theatres, concert halls, or nightclubs, without buying a ticket. Get caught sneaking in, and you'll almost certainly be thrown out very quickly - quite possibly not in a very nice way.

All of those examples have closely controlled access of each and every patron. If every station were barriered or in some other way every user of the railway inevitably passed through an access check, the analogies would be valid - as it is they seem pretty shaky.
 

Fare-Cop

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All of those examples have closely controlled access of each and every patron. If every station were barriered or in some other way every user of the railway inevitably passed through an access check, the analogies would be valid - as it is they seem pretty shaky.


I'm certain that it isn't indicative of your attitude jb, but for the majority of the public, what this ignores is the real social malaise, which these days seems to suggest that it is 'OK to abuse trust and not pay as long as you are not asked to do so.'
 
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34D

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Bottom line is, who is going to deal with them? As Guards, we get told avoid delays at all costs, avoid confrontations as our personal safety is at risk as lone workers, and hit revenue targets.

Trying to charge Full Open tickets goes against all our instructions, as if the person refuses to pay or give their details then there is nothing we can do, and if they kick off we get told we shouldn't have antagonised them.

Possibly if commission were taken away from guards, they would be more effective at conveying the 'buy at the station' message?
 

Fare-Cop

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Possibly if commission were taken away from guards, they would be more effective at conveying the 'buy at the station' message?


Exactly so, but that would require additional commitment from the TOCs to improved pay rates for those staff otherwise it is certain to be firmly opposed
 
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