Prosecution? What will happen next

[chloek1990]

I was asked for my train ticket and showed this to the Ticket Inspectors. They asked me why I only have a ticket from Harlow Town to Liverpool Street. I stated I am living in Hatfield Heath but stayed at grandparents on the night of the 25th. I advised I ran for a ticket the morning of the 26th , but the train was leaving so I had to jump on. I had no intention to not buy a ticket and was to buy the additional fare at Harlow Town (where staff has confirmed this is fine to do) where I was to meet my boyfriend, where we normally get on together. The inspector asked for my current address and gave Hatfield Heath along with my number and occupation. He then advised me he is going to give me a caution and will have to go to court where I can lose my job as I work in the financial sector. I stated I am more than willing to pay the difference now instead of getting it at Harlow or pay the penalty fare. He said it was too late and will receive a letter in the post advising what action will next be taken. The man made a call to check the address I provided where we have recently moved in and stated it will not be in my surname as I live with my partner parents with their surname. I again advised that it may not appear in their name due to the recent move and will appear in another name. He said that was wrong as well and been advised a different name. I gave the man my ID stating my Elsenham address and my train tickets up to Friday 28th from Harlow Town. The ticket inspector said he doesn’t believe me and thinks I buy tickets from Harlow Town to avoid fares. He then gave speech ‘anything you do say will be given as evidence’ and asked me questions

- (I think) Why don’t I have a ticket from Elsenham?
- What ticket do I have? From and To?

I then advised I need to get off at Harlow Town and all got off together. The second man kept telling me I will go to court and lose my job. At this point I broke down in tears as felt I was being bullied and pressured; I repeatedly asked if I could pay a fine. The man then asked for my signature after writing my train tickets down and took my 2 old tickets. The man asked me numberous of times if I want to change my story now and tell the truth. I confirmed I was telling the truth and I didn’t want to sign as haven’t gone through all his notes, he advised it was all I told him and said if I didn’t it would go down that I had not co-operated and will make things worse for me at court.

 

[telstarbox]

The second man kept telling me I will go to court and lose my job. At this point I broke down in tears as felt I was being bullied and pressured; I repeatedly asked if I could pay a fine. The man then asked for my signature after writing my train tickets down and took my 2 old tickets. The man asked me numberous of times if I want to change my story now and tell the truth. I confirmed I was telling the truth and I didn’t want to sign as haven’t gone through all his notes, he advised it was all I told him and said if I didn’t it would go down that I had not co-operated and will make things worse for me at court.

You need to wait for the letter from Greater Anglia (who run the trains on your route) to arrive before you can do anything else. Please try not to worry too much in the meantime, but do write down (for your own use) as much as you can remember about what happened while it is still in your mind.

Did you board the train at Sawbridgeworth‎?

It is an offence to board a train without buying a ticket at the station where there are ticket facilities available (either a ticket office or a ticket machine). Unfortunately being in a rush is not accepted as an excuse.

 

[chloek1990]

I had got on at elsenham which is quite a few stops. The train isn't very frequent either which is worst because otherwise I would have waited for the next train. Thank you for your help

 

[jon0844]

When you got to Liverpool Street, were you 100% going to queue up and buy your ticket from Elsenham to Harlow?

If so, wouldn't it have been quicker to get the ticket beforehand and get the later train? You might queue ages at Liverpool Street.

 

[chloek1990]

I was going to get off at Harlow Town to buy the difference where I was still going to meet my other half, we work and travel together, plus means I get stansted express which is quicker.
I have had to do it before when the machine didnt print my tickets and elsenham and took my money, I still got off at harlow Town and bought my tickets! I again already had a ticket for Harlow Town to Liv street.

 

[silencio]

Slightly off topic (but on topic in a way) people are always going on about how it is an offence to board a train without a valid ticket due to the Byelaws (which has been discussed plenty - some people think it's black and white and some see grey areas) but when I was in Hamilton recently the ticket machine wasn't working and so I boarded the train without a ticket. As I was getting on the train I looked at the wall where a sign stated that if you board a train without a ticket that only full price fares would be available on board. I wish Id have spotted it earlier so I could have taken a photo but under no circumstances did it advise you that you were committing an offence by not purchasing a ticket prior to boarding.

Looks like heavy handed tactics from train companies again in this thread.

 

[island]

We have had this discussion at great length before and it is clear that the law on buying a ticket before you board if working facilities are available still applies even if there isn't a sign saying so, or you don't see it, or it's behind a tree, or it's on the other platform.

 

[silencio]

The sign advised only that should you buy on board that there would be no discount fares, not that you have to buy prior to boarding.

Ill see if my mate can take a picture next time he's at the station.

 

[island]

You do not need to be told about the law in order for it to apply.

 

[benk1342]

You do not need to be told about the law in order for it to apply.

True, but I think such signs do imply (probably unintentionally) that it is ok to buy on board if you don't mind paying full fare.

 

[silencio]

You do not need to be told about the law in order for it to apply.

Well that's very misleading, perhaps leaning towards entrapment.

Anyhow, Ill post the pic once I have it. Lets not derail the thread any further.

 

[Mojo]

Well that's very misleading, perhaps leaning towards entrapment.

Anyhow, Ill post the pic once I have it. Lets not derail the thread any further.

I really don't think that will assist. Pretty much every company has a similar notice and I think we've all seen them. In fact the only companies who I've seen signs warning of a prosecution are Arriva Wales, Northern Rail and on TfL Rail services (Trams, Overground, DLR and Underground) - there may be more but I haven't seen them. Other companies, and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, only imply that you will be sold the full fare, or issued a Penalty fare where appropriate.

I do agree that it is misleading, but we have had that discussion fairly recently, and this is not really the place to have it. The facts of the matter are that if you board the train without a valid ticket and are stopped by an Inspector then anything can happen along the range of being advised not to do it again to being taken to Court!

 

[island]

Well that's very misleading, perhaps leaning towards entrapment.

Anyhow, Ill post the pic once I have it. Lets not derail the thread any further.

Entrapment has a specific legal definition, and this isn't it.

 

[reb0118]

............... but when I was in Hamilton recently the ticket machine wasn't working and so I boarded the train without a ticket. As I was getting on the train I looked at the wall where a sign stated that if you board a train without a ticket that only full price fares would be available on board. I wish I'd have spotted it earlier so I could have taken a photo but under no circumstances did it advise you that you were committing an offence by not purchasing a ticket prior to boarding.

I assume you mean Hamilton (Central or West) in Lanarkshire and not Hamilton Square (Birkenhead)? If so Scotrail does not have a prosecution department. NB private prosecutions in Scotland are virtually unheard of.

That said you can be reported for prosecution by the BTP, however as the Procurator Fiscal's office has stated that it takes a dim view of people being reported for avoiding £3 fares (fact!) it is also highly unlikely that one would be reported by the BTP either.

The usual response is that the avoider is made to purchase a ticket by the BTP and the matter is closed. That said compared to down south there does not seem to be the same level of fare dodging up in Scotland. Possibly a cultural thing but also due to the fact that Scotrail seem to staff all trains with either a guard or a ticket examiner. Most guards take a dim view of fare evaders up here and usually insist that you pay or leave at the next stop (due consideration for vulnerable persons applied though).

Serious frauds against Scotrail will, however, be pursued vigorously.

 

[Harlesden]

We have had this discussion at great length before and it is clear that the law on buying a ticket before you board if working facilities are available still applies even if there isn't a sign saying so, or you don't see it, or it's behind a tree, or it's on the other platform.

Totally agree. It all boils down to that little thing called Common Sense.
This "confusion" about being required to have a valid ticket before boarding the train certainly didn't exist in the 1960's and 1970's. Buying a ticket before boarding was kind of an automatic thing. You just did it and that is the principal reason for train operators appearing much less lenient now. Too many people demanding to see the requirement printed on a poster or something before they accept it.

 

[Greenback]

Totally agree. It all boils down to that little thing called Common Sense.
This "confusion" about being required to have a valid ticket before boarding the train certainly didn't exist in the 1960's and 1970's. Buying a ticket before boarding was kind of an automatic thing. You just did it and that is the principal reason for train operators appearing much less lenient now. Too many people demanding to see the requirement printed on a poster or something before they accept it.

The thing is, that in the old days the majority of stations had ticket offices that were open quite long hour sby modern standards.

Today, we have a plethora of TOC's, a numbe rof different policies depending on which company operates a service and in which part of the UK we are talking about, and large number of stations where there ar eno ticket purchasing facilities at all.

I think it is understandable that there is genuine confusion about whether one has to buy a ticket before boarding at all times.

 

[34D]

Totally agree. It all boils down to that little thing called Common Sense.
This "confusion" about being required to have a valid ticket before boarding the train certainly didn't exist in the 1960's and 1970's. Buying a ticket before boarding was kind of an automatic thing. You just did it and that is the principal reason for train operators appearing much less lenient now. Too many people demanding to see the requirement printed on a poster or something before they accept it.

I suspect part of it is the modern-day obsession with wriggling out of speeding and parking tickets: people expect to be able to do the same with rail tickets.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The thing is, that in the old days the majority of stations had ticket offices that were open quite long hour sby modern standards.

Today, we have a plethora of TOC's, a numbe rof different policies depending on which company operates a service and in which part of the UK we are talking about, and large number of stations where there ar eno ticket purchasing facilities at all.

I think it is understandable that there is genuine confusion about whether one has to buy a ticket before boarding at all times.

To some extent this ignores the fact that 'in the old days' of the 1960s & 70s, no stations had TVMs and there wasn't an option of buying in advance from a plethora of agents or the internet

Leaving aside the issue of local company policies, which may allow pay-on-train where advertised, the Railway Byelaws and other rulings are national legislation and apply equally to all the TOCs unless there is a specific instruction to the contrary.

I suspect part of it is the modern-day obsession with wriggling out of speeding and parking tickets: people expect to be able to do the same with rail tickets.

I agree that is crux of the issue and believe that it began in the 1980s with the changed moral values, dominated by a culture of greed, which became prevalent in many quarters

 

[Greenback]

To some extent this ignores the fact that 'in the old days' of the 1960s & 70s, no stations had TVMs and there wasn't an option of buying in advance from a plethora of agents or the internet

Leaving aside the issue of local company policies, which may allow pay-on-train where advertised, the Railway Byelaws and other rulings are national legislation and apply equally to all the TOCs unless there is a specific instruction to the contrary.

I won't disagree with any of that. But I do have some sympathy with someone who lives in an area like mine where it is permissible (and not necessarily advertised) to buy on board, and then find themselves in trouble and possibly facing prosecution when they do the same thing in a different area where such things are not tolerated.

The legislation is quite clear, but just not enforced consistently and I don't think it is as clear cut as the post I was responding to implied.

 

[Flamingo]

I won't disagree with any of that. But I do have some sympathy with someone who lives in an area like mine where it is permissible (and not necessarily advertised) to buy on board, and then find themselves in trouble and possibly facing prosecution when they do the same thing in a different area where such things are not tolerated.

The legislation is quite clear, but just not enforced consistently and I don't think it is as clear cut as the post I was responding to implied.

Arriva are starting to (finally) clamp down on ths "pay when challenged (and then buy short)" fare evasion.

 

[island]

Arriva are starting to (finally) clamp down on ths "pay when challenged (and then buy short)" fare evasion.

Can I have an SDS from Neath to Swansea please? Actually make that Llansamlet

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Arriva are starting to (finally) clamp down on ths "pay when challenged (and then buy short)" fare evasion.

TVM's planned for Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The legislation is quite clear, but just not enforced consistently and I don't think it is as clear cut as the post I was responding to implied.

It was exactly that view that lead to the ATOC Code of Practice in relation to dealing with these issues, which was rolled out recently.

This followed extensive consultation with Passenger Focus, the TOCs and the agencies that provide administrative & prosecution support for the TOCs.

I believe that it is slowly developing a more consistent process across much of the network.

 

[Muzer]

I really don't think that will assist. Pretty much every company has a similar notice and I think we've all seen them. In fact the only companies who I've seen signs warning of a prosecution are Arriva Wales, Northern Rail and on TfL Rail services (Trams, Overground, DLR and Underground) - there may be more but I haven't seen them. Other companies, and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, only imply that you will be sold the full fare, or issued a Penalty fare where appropriate.

SWT did have signs warning of prosecutions. They also heavily push the existence of penalty fares, though RPIs are comparatively rare (at least in my area).

 

[Greenback]

Arriva are starting to (finally) clamp down on ths "pay when challenged (and then buy short)" fare evasion.

That is excellent news. I did write and praise a guard who wanted to know how someone got through the barrier at Swansea when they requested a Swansea - Llanelli single one evening. They eventually admitted they had got on at Pyle.

However, every day I see people paying on board afte rhaving not bothered to buy from the TVM or ticket office (am) in Llanelli. There also now appears to be a TVM in Gowerton, yet still there are plenty of people paying for their tickets on board every morning.

Can I have an SDS from Neath to Swansea please? Actually make that Llansamlet

I have to say that in my experience hardly any guards seem to be concerned about collecting fares between Neath and Swansea, so if someone buys a Llansamlet - Swansea ticket that is probably more than they would normally end up paying!

This followed extensive consultation with Passenger Focus, the TOCs and the agencies that provide administrative & prosecution support for the TOCs.

I believe that it is slowly developing a more consistent process across much of the network.

That is to be welcomed.

 

[Welshman]

The legislation is quite clear, but just not enforced consistently and I don't think it is as clear cut as the post I was responding to implied.

How very much I agree with you.
Lack of consistency is the problem - not only between TOCs but within them.

For example, in my part of ATW-land, on the North Wales Coast,dire warning notices have appeared in stations, timetables, websites and other publicity material about how you must purchase a ticket before boarding or pay the full fare.
And yet on the train, conductors seem perfectly happy to sell the full range of tickets to people who have obviously boarded where there is a booking-office or TVM.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Totally agree. It all boils down to that little thing called Common Sense.
This "confusion" about being required to have a valid ticket before boarding the train certainly didn't exist in the 1960's and 1970's. Buying a ticket before boarding was kind of an automatic thing. You just did it and that is the principal reason for train operators appearing much less lenient now. Too many people demanding to see the requirement printed on a poster or something before they accept it.

Indeed - in those days, with fully-staffed booking offices and ticket barriers in operation for the whole time the station was open, trying to get on to the train without a ticket was unthinkable.

Ironically,though, I do feel that the railways themselves inadvertently helped to change this culture in the 1970s, with their introduction of "Pay Trains" on certain routes. I know they were an economic necessity, but then, it became a "bus culture" where it was pefectly acceptable to board without a ticket, expecting to pay on board, and the deeply ingrained "no ticket, no-access to the trains" idea, began to be eroded.

The railways then added to the growing erosion by introducing "open stations" - then you were seen to be invited to board without purchasing a ticket beforehand - the message removed ticket barriers gave was "it doesn't matter" Slowly, the cuture changed, and it became a challenge to some people to then try to ride without paying.

 

[jb]

How very much I agree with you.
Lack of consistency is the problem - not only between TOCs but within them.

Agreed, but many who call for consistency should be careful about what they wish for. Were consistency really implemented, the length and loudness of the squealing up and down the country would be positively deafening.

For example, in my part of ATW-land, on the North Wales Coast,dire warning notices have appeared in stations, timetables, websites and other publicity material about how you must purchase a ticket before boarding or pay the full fare.
And yet on the train, conductors seem perfectly happy to sell the full range of tickets to people who have obviously boarded where there is a booking-office or TVM.

But yet you would acknowledge what would surely happen if they did try and implement the rules fully, don't you?

 

[jon0844]

And yet on the train, conductors seem perfectly happy to sell the full range of tickets to people who have obviously boarded where there is a booking-office or TVM.

This needs to be sorted I guess. I am sure there's a mix of conductors being resistant to change (as in any profession), or not feeling that they're doing anything wrong and are actually trying to help people.

The problem is that good intentions actually helps encourage those who are less honest to try and 'play the system'.

Sadly, if you want to make people pay before travelling, you need to stop gladly selling tickets onboard unless there were no facilities on the day (closed ticket office, broken TVM or machine unable to take your chosen form of payment).

 

[jb]

This needs to be sorted I guess. I am sure there's a mix of conductors being resistant to change (as in any profession), or not feeling that they're doing anything wrong and are actually trying to help people.

You could easily make a straightforward revenue argument, coupled with a pretty understandable desire to limit unpleasantness as far as possible. It doesn't take many 10 minute stand-offs (quite possibly punctuated liberally with "**** ***" and the like), each of which result in zero revenue collected, for one to conclude that cheerily selling tickets instead, with chunks of revenue being gathered every 30 seconds, is better all round.

Sadly, if you want to make people pay before travelling, you need to stop gladly selling tickets onboard unless there were no facilities on the day (closed ticket office, broken TVM or machine unable to take your chosen form of payment).

The travelling public actually supporting the implementing of the rules would help.

 

[jon0844]

You can't impose rules to say you must buy tickets before travel, then have onboard staff happily selling tickets to try and provide excellent customer service - it sends out mixed signals, and doesn't help the passenger on the day that it isn't a nice friendly conductor, but a revenue officer that will go for a prosecution or a hefty unofficial 'fine' of £80.