Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[cle]

News that ORR has pre-approved upto 20 Virgin trains daily from 1st October 2030 to 31 Dec 2040. London to Paris / Brussels / Amsterdam


Appear to have given Virgin just 3 weeks to enter into agreement with St Pancras station

Green light for Virgin Trains international services | Office of Rail and Road

www.orr.gov.uk

Great news for competition...

I wonder if this will see - Rotterdam calls, and even Antwerp (knowing that station, it'd be very hard to section off for security, customs etc even if the demand was there to invest in it between the carriers)


Side note, but I wonder if it will join Skyteam as it were... w code share numbers and earning: many Virgin and especially KLM and AF 'elites' at each end who probably fly more than train currently for the points. Could see the Schiphol conversation reborn too.

 

[signed]

Side note, but I wonder if it will join Skyteam as it were... w code share numbers and earning: many Virgin and especially KLM and AF 'elites' at each end who probably fly more than train currently for the points. Could see the Schiphol conversation reborn too.

Eurostar was supposed to partner with Skyteam because of them running KLM's rail&air but crickets since 2024

 

[Sorcerer]

News that ORR has pre-approved upto 20 Virgin trains daily from 1st October 2030 to 31 Dec 2040. London to Paris / Brussels / Amsterdam


Appear to have given Virgin just 3 weeks to enter into agreement with St Pancras station

Green light for Virgin Trains international services | Office of Rail and Road

www.orr.gov.uk

Three weeks does seem like a very short-time for a business deal. Otherwise I'd say this is good news for them because up until now any future competition with Eurostar was mostly conceptual. But while up to 20tpd have been approved I think finding the specific paths might prove to be a bit trickier, especially when there is also the Channel Tunnel and continental side to get through.

Do we have any idea how well Virgin are progressing in the "secure access to other rail networks, and obtain safety approvals from ORR and the relevant authorities in the EU." part?

I imagine that would come later such as when trying to find paths on HS1, the tunnel, LGV Nord and HSL1. As far as I'm aware though they legally have to allow some competition on the EU side, but that doesn't mean they can't block them in other ways. I think this is something we'll have to wait and see for.

 

[Trainbike46]

Reporting in Dutch railway media says the below:

De ORR moest goedkeuring geven voor de overeenkomst zodat Virgin en HS1 deze binnenkort kunnen ondertekenen.

Which translates to:

ORR permission was required to enable signing of the agreement between Virgin and HS1 in the near future.

Assuming the reporting is accurate, it seems to mean that Virgin and LSPH have come to an agreement, and that the ORR has given permission for this agreement to be signed. If so, ensuring the signing happens this month should not be a problem for either party.

 

[Snow1964]

Do we have any idea how well Virgin are progressing in the "secure access to other rail networks, and obtain safety approvals from ORR and the relevant authorities in the EU." part?

No info yet, but I think EU expects upto 40% of high speed and key EU network to be offered to open access.

To some extent, these days, only need to get type approval in one EU country, then providing have correct safety equipment (eg compatible signalling, correct gauge etc), can operate on lines of any EU member. It's a bit more detailed in practice, but it's not like getting a full approval from scratch from all 3 countries

 

[TheWierdOne]

To some extent, these days, only need to get type approval in one EU country, then providing have correct safety equipment (eg compatible signalling, correct gauge etc), can operate on lines of any EU member. It's a bit more detailed in practice, but it's not like getting a full approval from scratch from all 3 countries

Given that HS1 is essentially a French high speed line hiding in a patent English leather trenchcoat, would approval to run on HS1 facilitate approval to run on European lines?

 

[Snow1964]

Given that HS1 is essentially a French high speed line hiding in a patent English leather trenchcoat, would approval to run on HS1 facilitate approval to run on European lines?

If it did pre Brexit, doesn't anymore as UK has moved away from same rules, even if it pointlessly adds complications to cross border moves.

 

[TheWierdOne]

If it did pre Brexit, doesn't anymore as UK has moved away from same rules, even if it pointlessly adds complications to cross border moves.

Would Brexit have affected much in this regard? Railway rules haven’t moved all that much in either country as far as I’m aware.

 

[martin2345uk]

Will never understand why the operating rules for HS1 and the LGVs couldnt have been more aligned when HS1 opened

 

[zwk500]

If it did pre Brexit, doesn't anymore as UK has moved away from same rules, even if it pointlessly adds complications to cross border moves.

Did we leave the ERA? Even if we did, I think the Channel Tunnel/HS1 safety rules recognise ERA approval as good enough, subject to certain exceptions

 

[TheWierdOne]

Virgin moves closer to Eurostar challenge as ORR pre-approves HS1 access

Virgin Trains has received a key approval from the UK rail regulator for its future services through the Channel Tunnel.

www.railwaypro.com

A RailwayPro article gives quite a bit more detail on the announcement. Virgin report that they are in “advanced stages” of discussion with Alstom about rolling stock, and with the Dutch, Belgian and French authorities about track access.

Virgin told RailwayPRO that finalising its rolling stock order with Alstom will be the next major milestone, followed by securing access through the Channel Tunnel.

Discussions with Alstom are now at an “advanced stage”, although Virgin has not given a date for the signing of a firm contract.

The group announced in 2025 that it was working with Alstom on a fleet of 12 Avelia Stream high-speed trains. Virgin itself described the arrangement at the time as preparation to “soon place an order”, meaning the trains have not yet been covered by a final purchase contract.

Asked by RailwayPRO about access to the French, Belgian and Dutch networks, as well as the necessary cross-border approvals, the company said discussions are also at an “advanced stage”.

 

[Snow1964]

Competition is incoming, so it smells like the incumbents are rushing to close the manufacturers' doors from the competition by mass ordering, and it's good PR to quote a London service.

Half of those London services won't ever see the light of day until serious station work is done at St Pancras and Gare du Nord anyways.

You also have Gemini, Claret, Illisto (Kevin Speed), that will be on the market (assuming they really have intentions to do so) in the near future for stock. If everyone orders at the same time, the new entrants will be in a proper pain situation

I have been doing a bit of internet sleuthing, but having to use google translate from French, so some accuracy might have been lost.

As far as I can work out TrenItalia have now confirmed their train order (basically a common fleet of Hitachi Frecciarossa 1000 with their French Operations). That puts them ahead of Virgin who have a letter of Intent with Alstom for 12 Avelia Stream (but I can't find anything saying order has since been confirmed).

Also most of the articles I looked at for TrenItalia simply refer to London (or Londres because they were French), doesn't actually say the station. However at least one article seemed to mention Stratford International.

I might be going off at a tangent, but I wonder what the relative costs of staffing Stratford International are, compared to cost of paying fees to use St Pancras International. Assuming trains reverse at Camden spur and are serviced at the new Paris depot, do they even need to serve St Pancras. I guess it is a rail equivalent of not serving Heathrow, but instead accepting an alternative airport.

At the moment, details are so vague, that can't really say what is planned, or what tricks they might have up their sleeve, although not announcing stops competition planning so is commercially clever. Although whilst St Pancras isn't confirmed I don't think can rule out terminating at another UK station, and Stratford is effectively London if you are starting from Paris area.

 

[Bald Rick]

I might be going off at a tangent, but I wonder what the relative costs of staffing Stratford International are, compared to cost of paying fees to use St Pancras International. Assuming trains reverse at Camden spur and are serviced at the new Paris depot, do they even need to serve St Pancras. I guess it is a rail equivalent of not serving Heathrow, but instead accepting an alternative airport.

They would have to pay to use Stratford too. As stated ad infinitum ad nasueam, Stratford is not sized to process a train load, or even half a trainload, of passengers boarding.

 

[Frothy]

I might be going off at a tangent, but I wonder what the relative costs of staffing Stratford International are, compared to cost of paying fees to use St Pancras International. Assuming trains reverse at Camden spur and are serviced at the new Paris depot, do they even need to serve St Pancras.

Gemini, who were proposing to use Stratford as an international station, had written in their submission to the Temple Mills adjudication that they would reverse their trains in the platforms at St Pancras. But not take on any passengers there, given the station capacity constraints!

 

[TheWierdOne]

Gemini, who were proposing to use Stratford as an international station, had written in their submission to the Temple Mills adjudication that they would reverse their trains in the platforms at St Pancras. But not take on any passengers there, given the station capacity constraints!

Makes sense, the track access fees to run to St P are likely identical to running to the Camden Spur, and there would have been capital cost involved in installing signalling on the spur.

 

[CdBrux]

track access fees etc... (and I would have thought costs of staffing St P vs Stratford) seem all rather irrelevant unless a way to solve Stratford capacity as frequently mentioned by Bald Rick is found

 

[cle]

Is the trackwork required at Stratford that challenging?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the trackwork required at Stratford that challenging?

Yes. it would need the whole trench lengthening. Also that would then lead to departing and arriving passengers using the same platform which means the station buildings themleves would need reconfiguring.

 

[Sorcerer]

Realistically I don't think any prospects of using Stratford International as a terminus station is realistic. Even if you could get the right train movements you'd be dealing with a station not designed as a terminus and would be upfronting the cost of border and security checks for a lower catchment than St Pancras. Economics just don't support using it right now. It would be a lot easier if the UK were in Schengen because then you could just treat it as a normal station along with Ebbsfleet and Ashford, but good luck getting that through the current political climate.

 

[MontyP]

Also the costs. AIUI (from a ‘well placed source’) the ski trains in particular were very costly to operate, not least the cleaning and repair costs to to the interior after all nighter full of skiers and boarders.

I did the overnight Eurostar once and it was a very quiet affair with everyone trying to sleep as much as possible in the seats. Unlike the old couchette train from Gare du Nord to Bourg St Maurice which was a non-stop party, that would have required some serious cleaning!

 

[zwk500]

Is the trackwork required at Stratford that challenging?

For context, you need the trackwork at this end: https://maps.app.goo.gl/LK8TVYGe3bfPCTDc8 to allow movements from the outer loops to either tunnel, if you want to avoid the need for wrong-road running to/from Dagenham.

 

[Snow1964]

They would have to pay to use Stratford too. As stated ad infinitum ad nasueam, Stratford is not sized to process a train load, or even half a trainload, of passengers boarding.

That has been said before, but unless anyone knows differently I assume it is based on a train calling there for 2-3 minutes.

If a train is sitting in the platform loop for say 30 minutes, filling up gradually, then some will board early which eases space in the building and the platform.

If they are only running a train every hour (or less) and no other trains are booked to use the International platforms then not getting in way of anything on through roads.

Perhaps @Bald Rick can clarify if the sizing he refers to is for trains calling, rather than slowly filling whilst parked, or applies to both

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps @Bald Rick can clarify if the sizing he refers to is for trains calling, rather than slowly filling whilst parked, or applies to both

Both, although clearly it os worth for those calling!as they all have to be processed first then held. There is not space to put more than 2, perhaps 3, desks for each of check in, Security, UK Border Control and French Border control, and with that in place little in the way of waiting space. Optimistically, assuming you can process one of person per channel of check in, security, and 2x Border Control in 60 seconds, that means (with three channels of desks) 180 people an hour. Even a half length train will have seats for 4-500. That means having the train in, serviced, crewed, and ready to go at least 2.5hrs before departure. That’s a lot of standing around doing nothing for £40m worth of rolling stock 10 x a day.

I’m sure whichever operator wants to use it will find out a way. Probably the hard way.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Eurostar appeals against Virgin Trains’ HS1 access approval

Eurostar has appealed the decision to pre-approve Virgin Trains’ access to HS1, calling the process unfair, discriminatory and non-transparent.

www.railwaypro.com

In its appeal, Eurostar argues that the procedure leading to the decision was “wholly non-transparent as well as unfair and discriminatory.”

The operator also alleges that the HS1 infrastructure manager is effectively reserving capacity for Virgin while withholding the same capacity from other applicants and prospective operators.

“HS1 is in effect unlawfully reserving capacity for VTE [Virgin Trains] as an access applicant and withholding that same capacity from other applicants, including Eurostar, and aspirant operators,” Eurostar said in its appeal application.

The company argues that Virgin’s application should not have been assessed in isolation and that all relevant applications for HS1 capacity should be considered alongside one another.

Well this took all of five minutes. Eurostar has challenged the ORR over the way Virgin has been awarded track access.

 

[LLivery]

As I expected.

The fact ORR said this was an objection, from not only Eurostar, made it inevitable

 

[TheWierdOne]

Are there any realistic grounds of this challenge actually doing anything other than holding up the inevitable ?

 

[NCT]

Have Eurostar made any applications? Aren't track access applications first come first served?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Have Eurostar made any applications? Aren't track access applications first come first served?

As far as I’m aware only Virgin have made a formal application, although no doubt Trenitalia have had informal discussions.

 

[Sorcerer]

Eurostar appeals against Virgin Trains’ HS1 access approval

Eurostar has appealed the decision to pre-approve Virgin Trains’ access to HS1, calling the process unfair, discriminatory and non-transparent.

www.railwaypro.com

Well this took all of five minutes. Eurostar has sued the ORR over the way Virgin has been awarded track access.

I'm lead to question whether Eurostar's concerns about reserving the capacity actually applies to aspirant operators or is just lip service given that they have a business interest in keeping the monopoly on Channel Tunnel passenger trains. Personally I don't expect this to hinder Virgin's application too much, but I can't say that I'm surprised this has happened at all to be honest.

 

[zwk500]

Well this took all of five minutes. Eurostar has sued the ORR over the way Virgin has been awarded track access.

Important distinction - has Eurostar taken the ORR to court, or are they appealling the ORR's decision under the ORR's own processes?

The article isn't clear but the context of the objections lodged suggests that they're appealing to the ORR, rather than suing the ORR in court.