Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[D6130]

There is barely anyone in that stretch. Especially when the direct train from Brussels to Strasbourg only takes 3h30. For the investment it isn't worth at all.

In an ideal world, there would be much more than 2 direct trains a day between Brussels and Strasbourg.

But even without that, changing between Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est is one of the least painful changes in Paris. SNCF even sells 10min connections at CDG for the aventurous.

An underground passageway is currently under construction between Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est. I don't know whether or not it will incorporate travelators, but it will make the change between the two stations not much longer - timewise - than between Kings Cross and St Pancras in London.

 

[quantinghome]

There is barely anyone in that stretch.

Isn't that actually... good? The ideal rail investment is where you can connect large populations with a route that passes through flattish, sparsely populated, countryside.

Especially when the direct train from Brussels to Strasbourg only takes 3h30. For the investment it isn't worth at all.

Knocking an hour off the journey between UK/Netherlands/Belgium to Eastern France/SW Germany/Switzerland isn't worth it?

But even without that, changing between Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est is one of the least painful changes in Paris. SNCF even sells 10min connections at CDG for the aventurous.

Well that'll do, I guess... Heaven forbid that we seek to improve transport links above the merely adequate.

 

[NCT]

Can we get the topic from mainland Europe HSR masterplan back onto Channel Tunnel services please?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Can we get the topic from mainland Europe HSR masterplan back onto Channel Tunnel services please?

On that, does anyone know where Trenitalia is likely to build their new Paris depot? Word on the web is they will be running London services out of it

 

[30907]

There's a notably large "hole" in the European railway network, roughly in the triangle between Liege, Luxembourg and Cologne, which makes east/west travel a bit awkward; you are forced to choose between going around the top or the bottom of it. .

Last time I was in the area, it was a sort of upside-down hole aka the Eifel

 

[D6130]

On that, does anyone know where Trenitalia is likely to build their new Paris depot? Word on the web is they will be running London services out of it

There's the site of the old La Chapelle locomotive depot, just outside Gare du Nord....but I doubt that it would be long enough to maintain and stable eight car Frecciarossa units. Plus, I read somewhere that the city council have it earmarked for residential development....although nothing much seems to have happened in the ten years or so since SNCF stopped using it, apart from the demolition of a few outbuildings.

 

[London Trains]

Can we get the topic from mainland Europe HSR masterplan back onto Channel Tunnel services please?

It's quite sad that conversations aren't allowed to naturally flow on this forum because of the "off-topic police", and its even worse that this is happening in the speculation section of the forum.

 

[TheWierdOne]

There's the site of the old La Chapelle locomotive depot, just outside Gare du Nord....but I doubt that it would be long enough to maintain and stable eight car Frecciarossa units. Plus, I read somewhere that the city council have it earmarked for residential development....although nothing much seems to have happened in the ten years or so since SNCF stopped using it, apart from the demolition of a few outbuildings.

You could maybe squish 2-3 200m roads but I doubt that would be enough for the needs of Trenitalia

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2025 ==

Could Trenitalia go for a depot located on the LGV Interconnexion Est? That would be much easier to access for operations from both Gare du Lyon and Gare du Nord

 

[NCT]

It's quite sad that conversations aren't allowed to naturally flow on this forum because of the "off-topic police", and its even worse that this is happening in the speculation section of the forum.

Ordinarily I don't disagree with you.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Some news from HeuroTrain, the Dutch startup that popped up some years ago and then went quiet. After 3-4 years of absolute silence they’ve sent out an email advertising a crowdfunding campaign to launch a service on the Amsterdam-Paris route, with future expansions aiming for Germany and the UK. It’s an interesting idea certainly, and they claim to have track access almost secured and rolling stock “concepts” ready to go. What will come of it is anybody’s guess.

The crowdfunding page: https://platform.eyevestor.com/eyev...rYUOvSqf8ugF9a_DvIP4rtFrYJOoFkE-WcPpDS.Ururf2

Image below shows the email from Heurotrain, advertising an opportunity to invest their company.

 

[signed]

What will come of it is anybody’s guess.

Do we know whether DB 406s actually got sold (as that is clearly what's shown)?

The compeition on the route is ramping up with Arriva NL supposed start of 1 return per day Groningen-Paris slow using loco-hauled stock in June, though there have been only crickets from Arriva.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Do we know whether DB 406s actually got sold (as that is clearly what's shown)?

The compeition on the route is ramping up with Arriva NL supposed start of 1 return per day Groningen-Paris slow using loco-hauled stock in June, though there have been only crickets from Arriva.

Still for sale according to DB's website, although given their record of poor reliability I would be surprised if they are sold for anything other than scrap.

 

[Schweir]

London St Pancras revamp aims to cut Eurostar waiting time to 15 minutes

Planned £100mn overhaul of train station will seek to end ‘holding pen’ experience for passengers

www.ft.com

Turn up 15 mins before departure!? Surely this cannot be sustainable if the majority of a train decide to turn up 15 mins before departure!

 

[TheWierdOne]

London St Pancras revamp aims to cut Eurostar waiting time to 15 minutes

Planned £100mn overhaul of train station will seek to end ‘holding pen’ experience for passengers

www.ft.com

Turn up 15 mins before departure!? Surely this cannot be sustainable if the majority of a train decide to turn up 15 mins before departure!

They wouldn’t stake their reputation to it if it wasn’t possible.

 

[Santa Claus]

After 3-4 years of absolute silence they’ve sent out an email advertising a crowdfunding campaign to launch a service on the Amsterdam-Paris route, with future expansions aiming for Germany and the UK. It’s an interesting idea certainly, and they claim to have track access almost secured and rolling stock “concepts” ready to go.

“almost secured” = we have an offer and ‘just’ need the money to pay for it?

What will come of it is anybody’s guess.

More Locomore?

»Since June 2015, Locomore had raised funds through a crowdfunding campaign, […] On 26 January 2016 the company announced that they had successfully raised the capital necessary to launch the train service. […] On 11 May 2017, Locomore announced that it had filed for insolvency in district court. Service was terminated as new investors could not be found to keep the railroad company operational.« —https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomore

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2025 ==

Do we know whether DB 406s actually got sold (as that is clearly what's shown)?

Are they even usable? German Wikipedia says they lost their license for France when TVM was removed to create room for ETCS. (»Zudem wurden die ICE 3MF mit ETCS für Fahrten nach Belgien und in die Niederlande umgerüstet. Bei dieser Modernisierung wurde u. a. aus Platzmangel das französische TVM durch den ETCS-Fahrzeugrechner ersetzt, ohne jedoch TVM als STM anzuschließen. Sie verloren damit ihre bisherige Zulassung für Frankreich.« —https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_406)

Also, my memory tells me that I’ve read somewhere about a problem with needed ETCS (hardware) upgrades, requiring relicensing after this, and the bad cost-benefit-ratio for such a small class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2025 ==

Turn up 15 mins before departure!? Surely this cannot be sustainable if the majority of a train decide to turn up 15 mins before departure!

Then don’t sell the majority of tickets as Premier Class. Can’t read the article without subscription. Does it mention which classes will get which checkin-in deadlines?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Eurostar and Virgin given extension to finalise Temple Mills agreement

Operators working on draft access agreement to share Temple Mills International Depot.

www.railmagazine.com

A small tidbit of news on Virgin’s progress to slide in to Temple Mills. Summary: Negotiations are ongoing but it appears to be progressing well. Virgin and Eurostar sent a joint request to the ORR to extend the deadline of having a initial agreement on depot access, but both appear optimistic an agreement can be reached by mid-February, with Virgin still appearing confident of having bums on seats by 2030.

 

[Snow1964]

Just published in English on a French site

Italian rail operator Trenitalia is one step closer to launching a rival service to Eurostar’s Channel Tunnel service between London and Paris, following a €1 billion partnership with an American investment firm.

It plans to provide 10 London-Paris round-trips by 2029 via the Channel Tunnel.

The funds from investment firm Certares are part of a wider deal to grow Trenitalia operations in Europe outside of Italy, including in France and other cross-border journeys.

Around €300 million of the investment is reported to be going towards the UK-France expansion.

Trenitalia, managed by the Italian state rail operator FS Italiane, already operates several domestic lines in France following the EUs forced opening of the nations rail routes to others

These include services between Paris and Lyon – soon to reach 14 round-trips per-day – as well as routes to Marseille (via Avignon), Alpine ski stations, and international services between France and Italy.

Tickets have mainly been cheaper on Trenitalia trains compared to SNCF but with fewer daily services, and it can be more difficult to obtain refunds following delays, according to a report by the French consumer association UFC-Choisir.

In general, competition on lines reduces prices on services.

However, several steps are required by the rail operator before UK-France services can be launched.

Is a 2029 opening feasible?​

The Eurostar Group (currently owned by the SNCF, Belgian rail operator SNCB, and private investment firms) have held a monopoly on Channel Tunnel passenger rail services since they began in 1994.

This looks certain to end in the coming years, with several companies announcing interest in running direct London-Paris trains.

Increased competition is desired by both the British rail authorities and tunnel operator Getlink, with more trains expected to dramatically increase revenues and create hundreds of jobs.

The operator says that around twice as many passenger trains (excluding Le Shuttle services transporting vehicles) could run through the tunnel as are currently scheduled, due to recent upgrades.

The London St Pancras terminal is also looking to greatly increase the number of passengers it can handle per hour – up to a maximum 5,000 – and station managers are hoping for more services to be launched.

Until the Trenitalia announcement, Virgin seemed the furthest along with its plans to bring in a rival service.

In October 2025, it was given authorisation to use the ‘Temple Mills’ train depot in London to store trains.

The depot is the only location in the UK currently capable of storing passenger trains that run through the Channel, which have different requirements to domestic trains (until now, only Eurostar has been authorised to use it).

Virgin looked to have scuppered any other rival services, as the agreement saw them gain access to all the remaining spots in the UK depot.

If Trenitalia or any other competitor wished to store trains in the UK, a new depot would need to be constructed, or Temple Mills expanded.

In the case of the latter, Eurostar, FS Italiane and Evolyn (a Spanish operator that is also looking to run a London-Paris service) have all expressed interest in expanding the depot, but only if costs are shared between all operators.

However, Marco Caposciutti, CEO of Trenitalia France, said to Railway Gazette International that the 10 trains Trenitalia plan to use for the Channel Tunnel route would all initially be maintained in a newly-proposed €100 million depot near Paris, circumventing the need for a UK base.

Alongside these logistical factors however, any operator looking to run a service needs to reach a commercial agreement with Eurostar, alongside achieving safety and other technical milestones, before launching the route.

Virgin had set a 2030 launch date for its Channel Tunnel service, but may attempt to bring forward plans following the Trenitalia announcement.

The Italian operator seems intent to aggressively tackle the route, and claims that increased rail travel could eliminate the need for flight routes between the two capitals.

Currently, around 40% of passengers between London and Paris fly.

Trenitalia points to other European routes of a comparable distance including Rome-Milan, Madrid-Barcelona, and international connections such as Paris-Brussels, which have all seen direct flights largely replaced by rail services.

Trenitalia targets launch of London–Paris Channel Tunnel trains by 2029

Italian state rail company aims to be first to provide rival service to Eurostar after investment boost from American fund

www.connexionfrance.com

 

[Mikey C]

Surely most people fly London to Paris, because they are connecting to a long haul flight from Heathrow or CDG? The number of people flying point to point will be tiny,

 

[zwk500]

Surely most people fly London to Paris, because they are connecting to a long haul flight from Heathrow or CDG? The number of people flying point to point will be tiny,

People will fly London to Paris point-to-point on low-cost airlines as well. Easyjet are flying 2-4 times daily to CDG from both Luton and Gatwick this month. Using A319s/A320s that's an average 6*180=1080 passengers per day each way, or more than 30,000 passengers a month.

 

[NCT]

People will fly London to Paris point-to-point on low-cost airlines as well. Easyjet are flying 2-4 times daily to CDG from both Luton and Gatwick this month. Using A319s/A320s that's an average 6*180=1080 passengers per day each way, or more than 30,000 passengers a month.

Or 1 train a day.

 

[zwk500]

Or 1 train a day.

Which isn't a tiny number. Eurostar run 14 to 16 trains between London and Paris per day, so Easyjet's offering from 2 airports (it's adding a Stansted Route later) is equal to 6% of Eurostar's core market.

Compare that to a route like Birmingham-Berlin, which has 2-3 flights per week.

 

[Farnborough]

[deleted]

 

[Krokodil]

British Airways and Air France have enough flights per day between LHR-CDG and back to cast doubt on this assertion.

Not really, the assertion was that such flights mostly exist as feeders for long haul and few people just do the short hop.

 

[signed]

Surely most people fly London to Paris, because they are connecting to a long haul flight from Heathrow or CDG? The number of people flying point to point will be tiny,

I assume a lot of whether this is true or not goes with the exorbitant prices of Eurostar, but there are certainely a lot of point-to-point travellers on flights (and indeed most to all LCC flyers won't be connecting same day).

 

[zwk500]

I assume a lot of whether this is true or not goes with the exorbitant prices of Eurostar,

£39 fares still available in January. And for that you get your bags included!


This was the cheapest Easyjet would do for the same day as that £39 E* fare - £70.47 one-way (incl. a Hold bag).

Easyjet/Ryanair are only actually cheap if you take nothing more than a rucksack with you.

Important caveat - E* will only sell you the £39 fare as part of a return trip, and it's only on the 06.01 train. The comparable 18.01 train starts from £75.

 

[Mikey C]

Which isn't a tiny number. Eurostar run 14 to 16 trains between London and Paris per day, so Easyjet's offering from 2 airports (it's adding a Stansted Route later) is equal to 6% of Eurostar's core market.

So still a low percentage. And some of those will be people living near the airport, or travelling to places near the airports, rather than the centre of London or Paris, so choosing a route because of its specific convenience to them.

It's possible, indeed likely, that lower prices through competition would grow the overall market from London to Paris and Brussels, the additional cheeky day trip or weekend break, but that would be mainly new business rather than people changing modes.

 

[zwk500]

So still a low percentage. And some of those will be people living near the airport, or travelling to places near the airports, rather than the centre of London or Paris, so choosing a route because of its specific convenience to them.

Your contention was that the number was tiny. Yes there are many reasons why they are choosing to travel by air, but it's instructive to see that the air market remains substantive to Paris, compared to Brussels where direct flights from London are very hard to come by.

It's possible, indeed likely, that lower prices through competition would grow the overall market from London to Paris and Brussels, the additional cheeky day trip or weekend break, but that would be mainly new business rather than people changing modes.

Lower prices would definitely grow the overall market. I am less convinced that competition will actually lower prices given that the new operators won't be able to get a significantly higher seat density, they won't be able to get substantively lower track and station access charges as that's all regulated for competition anyway, there'll only be at most 3 companies running the trains which isn't really a market, and the airlines have been competing for ages so Eurostar fares are already structured in a way that offers low fares for "early bird" pickings and increases it's yield management to maximise revenue.

I think the double-decker trains Eurostar have just chosen may offer a few more tickets at the £39 price band, but that's because of higher seat density of the trainset not competition. The per-passenger charges for access to the Channel Tunnel mean £39 is probably as low as fares can go in the current charging regime.

 

[Snow1964]

What I think is interesting about today's TrenItalia announcement is not the proposed 10 trains per day, but is the proposed €100m maintenance depot near Paris to get around the lack of access to Temple Mills.

That suggests it will be circuits from Paris to London (say 5 to 5.5 hour out and back), couple of circuits per day for each set, maybe earliest starters getting in 3 daily returns.

4 or 5 trains needed, likely double sets so 8-10 units. But they have 10 options in existing order of multi-system units. Furthermore maybe they could swap the units around allocating 2028 build rather than waiting for the options which might only be delivered 2029 or 2030. If they can get going year or two ahead of Virgin then logically could grab a share of the market whilst competition is not ready.

An airline like EasyJet can easily reallocate planes to other routes if London-Paris is undercut. Just because they operate it now whilst Eurostar has no rail competition, doesn't mean it will continue into 2030s if rail competition forces a price war.

 

[zwk500]

An airline like EasyJet can easily reallocate planes to other routes if London-Paris is undercut. Just because they operate it now whilst Eurostar has no rail competition, doesn't mean it will continue into 2030s if rail competition forces a price war.

Very true, although as pointed out above, the rail costs on a per-path and per-passenger basis mean that the existing lowest fare of £39 is unlikely to be able to be reduced significantly without dropping below the bottom line.

The prices above £39 are offered progressively as trains fill up, and there's no reason to think that any new entrant will be doing anything differently. After all, that's what the airlines do.

Maybe the new entrants will try the Low-cost airline trick of offering a lower headline price but charging separately for seat selection, baggage.

 

[signed]

On that stretch the plane serves quite a wildly different market to the train, I am unconvinced that EasyJet or Vueling will leave the market even if a price war ensues on the ground.