Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Krokodil]

It says something about the European high speed rail network that we consider Berlin to be way too far. In fact the straight line distance from Lille to Berlin is around 100km less than Lille to Marseille. We wouldn't consider Marseille to be too far - indeed Eurostar has run there in the past. The difference, obviously, is that it's high speed rail the whole way to Marseille but a real patchwork to Berlin.

Eurostar used to run to Marseille. They no longer consider it worth the hassle. That's why Cologne and Frankfurt has a better chance of succeeding, particularly as it would be an extension of the existing Brussels service rather than taking up an extra path through the tunnel.

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar used to run to Marseille. They no longer consider it worth the hassle. That's why Cologne and Frankfurt has a better chance of succeeding, particularly as it would be an extension of the existing Brussels service rather than taking up an extra path through the tunnel.

Also worth pointing out they lost the 'starting-up' EU Funding for Marseille at just the same time as COVID hit.

 

[Austriantrain]

It says something about the European high speed rail network that we consider Berlin to be way too far. In fact the straight line distance from Lille to Berlin is around 100km less than Lille to Marseille. We wouldn't consider Marseille to be too far - indeed Eurostar has run there in the past. The difference, obviously, is that it's high speed rail the whole way to Marseille but a real patchwork to Berlin.

Yes, and Lille to Marseille has a continous HSL because Paris is so dominant in France and both are linked to it. Berlin is far from dominant in Germany and arguably rather better connected with HSR than economically much more important German cities such as Munich and Hamburg.

So no, Germany is never going to be France. It also has no nearly empty center where HSL can be built rather cheaply and without much opposition - at least, not in the „old Länder“.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2025 ==

If and when the Germans finally get their act together (which to be honest is only marginally better than us), Berlin would be eminently achievable by direct HSR, for now Frankfurt and Cologne would be more realistic

I always find it intriguing on this forum that whenever a proposal for new lines in the UK come up, everybody goes „It’s not needed“, „It’s not value for money“, „we don’t have the funds to build it“ and then the same forum turns on Germany: „when will they get their act together and build HS bypasses around their major metropolitan regions so that we Brits can go HS all the way to Berlin?“.

Not that these are necessarily the same users, but still…

 

[Trainbike46]

Not that these are necessarily the same users, but still…

This is of course the key point, however...

I always find it intriguing on this forum that whenever a proposal for new lines in the UK come up, everybody goes „It’s not needed“, „It’s not value for money“, „we don’t have the funds to build it“ and then the same forum turns on Germany: „when will they get their act together and build HS bypasses around their major metropoltitan regions so that we Brits can go HS all the way to Berlin?“.

My favourite example was, when someone recently proposed building a bypass line in Belgium bypassing both Brussels and Antwerp. That's never going to happen, because building it would be actively harmful to Belgium, compared to that suggesting a HSL to Berlin is coming back to reality!

 

[TheWierdOne]

This is of course the key point, however...

My favourite example was, when someone recently proposed building a bypass line in Belgium bypassing both Brussels and Antwerp. That's never going to happen, because building it would be actively harmful to Belgium, compared to that suggesting a HSL to Berlin is coming back to reality!

The trouble with Germany (historical joke here), is that it's extremely decentralised compared to France or Spain, meaning that there are fewer corridors that stand obviously above others in terms of the need for HSR. In France and Spain you have fewer cities with higher populations, lending themselves well to HSR corridors with few stops, centred on Paris and Madrid because that's where people want to go (but also to stop those pesky regions getting to far off the leash).

 

[Austriantrain]

This is of course the key point, however...

Of course…

My favourite example was, when someone recently proposed building a bypass line in Belgium bypassing both Brussels and Antwerp. That's never going to happen, because building it would be actively harmful to Belgium, compared to that suggesting a HSL to Berlin is coming back to reality!

The key point is that a Rhein-Ruhr avoider will never happen, considering that is the largest German conurbation. The corollary is that while Hamm - Hannover is an obvious missing HS link, every through train from Brussels to the North/North-East will always lose quite a lot of time.

Trains towards the south fare better because they can avoid the Ruhr. But even there, when everything planned is built, trains will still run through the likes of Mannheim (at least, a major hub and thus a useful stop for LD trains) and Ulm because German Federalism does not really have a mechanism to avoid the Länder blocking any proposal omitting those cities.

Coming from Austria where every train de facto has to stop in St. Pölten - 60T people, but the capital of Lower Austria - I can relate.

 

[Krokodil]

Yes, and Lille to Marseille has a continous HSL because Paris is so dominant in France and both are linked to it. Berlin is far from dominant in Germany and arguably rather better connected with HSR than economically much more important German cities such as Munich and Hamburg.

Speaking selfishly, Hamburg is the most difficult place to get to in Germany for me. Berlin and Munich are just a single change from a Eurostar onto a direct train (even if it is a sleeper) but to get from where I live to Hamburg (and hence on to Denmark etc.) will be a very long day with multiple changes and all of the jeopardy that involves with DB.

I always find it intriguing on this forum that whenever a proposal for new lines in the UK come up, everybody goes „It’s not needed“, „It’s not value for money“, „we don’t have the funds to build it“ and then the same forum turns on Germany: „when will they get their act together and build HS bypasses around their major metropolitan regions so that we Brits can go HS all the way to Berlin?“.

Not just Germany, I'd like the French to run more trains around the Interconnexion Est for my benefit so that I don't have to trek across Paris when going to Switzerland.

I'll just keep quiet about the fact that we are struggling to get HS2 to actually be anything more than an Acton-Aston shuttle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2025 ==

Coming from Austria where every train de facto has to stop in St. Pölten - 60T people, but the capital of Lower Austria - I can relate.

I had an Austrian Interrailer on one of my trains a few years ago. I asked where she was from and she thought that I wouldn't have heard of St Polten. I've never stepped off of a train there but...

 

[Austriantrain]

Speaking selfishly, Hamburg is the most difficult place to get to in Germany for me. Berlin and Munich are just a single change from a Eurostar onto a direct train (even if it is a sleeper) but to get from where I live to Hamburg (and hence on to Denmark etc.) will be a very long day with multiple changes and all of the jeopardy that involves with DB.

Hamburg might actually be a more attractive proposition for E* than Berlin. It is a very long journey of course, and both are a stretch. Berlin as a destination is well known though to be commercialy difficult, hence not very attractive to airlines (and the new NJ sets are not planned to go there either, indeed it was difficult to reintroduce a night train from Vienna at all). Also, there is nothing else around Berlin - Warsaw is very far away.

Not just Germany, I'd like the French to run more trains around the Interconnexion Est for my benefit so that I don't have to trek across Paris when going to Switzerland.

The difference between Germany and France in a nutshell. Germany has many trains on very bad infrastructure; France as few services on excellent infrastructure.

 

[popeter45]

Hamburg could work by using Altona for Juxaposed Control (especially if factored into Altona's replacement) with a setdown only stop at Hamburg Hbf from London for connections

 

[chris2]

I’m headed to Gothenburg in a couple of weeks. Hamburg is as far as you can get in a day from London. Brussels, Cologne are the intermediates. I’m not sure I’d want to go all that way on a single train. It’s nicer to get off for an hour or two, have a wander, grab some food, then do another leg. That said, on first look, going direct to Cologne gets you one step closer to lots of Germany. And perhaps if the Aachen bypass line were built that could give you a journey time around 3.5hrs.

However, Jon Worth’s report rules out the Hbf as impractical for an international terminal. I’m not sure if another Cologne station gives you the same onward connectivity options and I doubt Cologne is a big enough market on its own.

Anyway, say a solution were found for Cologne then you add 4hrs to Hamburg and all in all that’s relatively painless for the distance travelled.

Hamburg -> Copenhagen is currently a direct train in 5hrs and onwards to Gothenburg is another 3.5hrs. Which on its own isn’t too bad. Once Fehrmann is open and the German line upgraded, I think the time to Copenhagen drops to around 2.5hrs? With further improvements to the west coast line in Sweden and perhaps if the Oresundstag were to venture down to Hamburg, you could plausibly see direct trains in 6hrs. Especially because the Danes have done precisely what would apparently be economic suicide for the Belgians and built a bypass of Copenhagen central station.

 

[HSTEd]

I’m headed to Gothenburg in a couple of weeks. Hamburg is as far as you can get in a day from London. Brussels, Cologne are the intermediates. I’m not sure I’d want to go all that way on a single train. It’s nicer to get off for an hour or two, have a wander, grab some food, then do another leg. That said, on first look, going direct to Cologne gets you one step closer to lots of Germany. And perhaps if the Aachen bypass line were built that could give you a journey time around 3.5hrs.

However, Jon Worth’s report rules out the Hbf as impractical for an international terminal. I’m not sure if another Cologne station gives you the same onward connectivity options and I doubt Cologne is a big enough market on its own.

Anyway, say a solution were found for Cologne then you add 4hrs to Hamburg and all in all that’s relatively painless for the distance travelled.

Hamburg -> Copenhagen is currently a direct train in 5hrs and onwards to Gothenburg is another 3.5hrs. Which on its own isn’t too bad. Once Fehrmann is open and the German line upgraded, I think the time to Copenhagen drops to around 2.5hrs? With further improvements to the west coast line in Sweden and perhaps if the Oresundstag were to venture down to Hamburg, you could plausibly see direct trains in 6hrs. Especially because the Danes have done precisely what would apparently be economic suicide for the Belgians and built a bypass of Copenhagen central station.

A direct train is the best way you are going to reach Hamburg in time for the sleeper to Scandinavia or destinations further ease.
If you can't do that in one day, you may as well just spend the night in Brussels.

 

[zwk500]

However, Jon Worth’s report

While what he says isn't mad, it's worth pointing out that this 'report' is basically just a really long blog post by him.

 

[Austriantrain]

Especially because the Danes have done precisely what would apparently be economic suicide for the Belgians and built a bypass of Copenhagen central station.

Not comparable in any way. Would you suggest freight trains should go into Copenhagen Main Station for reversal? I won‘t judge the merits of maybe using it for daytime trains in the future (AFAIK there aren‘t any at the moment), but is has nothing to do with building an entire Brussels/Antwerpen HS avoiding line.

Again, it is asking other people to use their tax Euros to build new lines that are absolutely useless to them so that you can reach your holiday destination faster. The equivalent would be the French complaining that there is no London HS avoiding line (and I am not even speaking about a short HS1-HS2 connection, since the equivalent of it does exist in Brussels), because they want to be in Liverpool faster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2025 ==

A direct train is the best way you are going to reach Hamburg in time for the sleeper to Scandinavia or destinations further ease.
If you can't do that in one day, you may as well just spend the night in Brussels.

In any case, London - Hamburg should be marginally shorter than London - Berlin, if suitable paths are available. Around 8 to 8:30 hours should be possible. And probably achieve higher yields, especially with the Scandinavia connections - not a cheap destination in any way.

But since I don’t actually believe in London - Berlin (Sounds more Like a marketing ploy), I don‘t so so in London - Hamburg either. A single connection in Cologne would be great though, so it all comes down to finding a platform for E*.

 

[quantinghome]

So no, Germany is never going to be France. It also has no nearly empty center where HSL can be built rather cheaply and without much opposition - at least, not in the „old Länder“.

What intrigues me about the German high speed network is that it is really quite extensive and a lot (maybe most) of it has been built through both populated areas or more challenging hillier terrain (see superimposed map of HSL and elevation below). And then they just... stopped. Two-thirds of what would form a truly comprehensive network is already there.

 

[30907]

What intrigues me about the German high speed network is that it is really quite extensive and a lot (maybe most) of it has been built through both populated areas or more challenging hillier terrain (see superimposed map of HSL and elevation below). And then they just... stopped. Two-thirds of what would form a truly comprehensive network is already there.

View attachment 193639

Less obvious are the pale green and brown sections of "Ausbaustrecke" (200/230km/h) which complement the HS network - DB has plenty of those (particularly in the "West" - or the gap-filling that is planned.
But the real problem is, as others have said, is the number of significant medium-sized cities which are difficult commercially to bypass.

 

[BRX]

A eurostar to cologne would certainly be handy in that it would get you, in one leg, to somewhere with lots of onwards connections to the rest of Germany. But you could achieve similar by having more ICEs running from Brussels to German destinations (like say hamburg) without having to build new border infrastructure. London to Hamburg with a single change at Brussels would be just as good as London to Hamburg with a single change at Cologne.

 

[Austriantrain]

What intrigues me about the German high speed network is that it is really quite extensive and a lot (maybe most) of it has been built through both populated areas or more challenging hillier terrain (see superimposed map of HSL and elevation below). And then they just... stopped. Two-thirds of what would form a truly comprehensive network is already there.

You are right of course, since Merkel, Germany has lost all ambition for any kind of new infrastructure, not only rail. I don't defend the Germans, I am just pointing out that some of the more outlandish ideas here will never happen, for very good reason. That doesn't mean that there aren't any HSL that should rather urgently be built in Germany. Indeed, there are plans for most of them - Frankfurt - Mannheim, Ulm - Augsburg, Hanau - Fulda, Bielefeld - Hannover, Hannover - Hamburg etc. They just don't get off the ground.

Still, Germany will never be a country where an HS train will ever travel hundreds of kilometers nonstop at 320 km/h. This is just a fact, and once again, there are very good reasons for it and a couple of direct E* trains a day will never change the equation, even though they might be very practical.

 

[chris2]

A eurostar to cologne would certainly be handy in that it would get you, in one leg, to somewhere with lots of onwards connections to the rest of Germany. But you could achieve similar by having more ICEs running from Brussels to German destinations (like say hamburg) without having to build new border infrastructure. London to Hamburg with a single change at Brussels would be just as good as London to Hamburg with a single change at Cologne.

I agree, but the question is whether the demand for all those connections from Brussels is there and if there is capacity to have all those trains go the same way to Cologne first and then split. Given that all those connections are already operating from Cologne, it might be better to get there. However, then the question becomes whether Cologne can support the international operations, a question Jon Worth’s report says an emphatic no to.

 

[TheWierdOne]

News from Trenitalia, as alerted by European rail guru Jon Worth. Trenitalia is searching for a depot location in/near Paris, which they will use to, among other things, maintain trains that they would run to Paris. Presumably this also gives them more independence rather than relying on SNCF depots. Article is in French

"Nous serons en perte cette année et en 2026": après 4 ans en France et 4,7 millions de personnes transportées, Trenitalia renforce son offre et vise la clientèle pro

Le premier concurrent de SNCF Voyageurs sur la grande vitesse dresse un bilan positif et va encore, dès ce mois de décembre, consolider son offre vers Lyon avec au total 14 rotations quotidiennes en lorgnant spécifiquement les voyageurs professionnels. De quoi peser encore plus face à l'opérateur...

www.bfmtv.com

Trenitalia va également construire un centre de maintenance près de Paris pour faciliter ses opérations, un investissement de plusieurs millions d'euros mais un investissement surtout stratégique. Ce centre qui devrait ouvrir d'ici quatre à cinq ans, a vocation à être un des noeuds de l'opérateur dans son dessein d'offre pan-européenne interconnectée notamment vers Londres. Ecarté par le régulateur britannique du centre de maintenance londonien au profit de Virgin, Trenitalia pourra s'appuyer sur son site parisien pour envoyer des trains vers la capitale anglaise.

Sorry if my translation below is a bit off

Trenitalia will also construct a maintenance centre near Paris to facilitate these operations, un investment of several million euros but above all a strategic investment. This centre which will open in 4-5 years, is designated to be a node of the operator [Trenitalia] in their offer of pan-European connectivity notably towards London. Ruled out by the British regulator from the London maintenance centre to the benefit of Virgin, Trenitalia will be able to lean on their Parisian site to send trains towards the English capital.

 

[m0ffy]

According to FT Eurotunnel has pulled the proposed UK rail investments including Barking freight terminal which would have allowed truck carrying trains to work a Barking - Dorges (near Lille) service. This is because of massive jump in business rates

Channel Tunnel owner cancels UK rail projects over rise in business rates

Eurotunnel said expected tripling of levy makes planned freight investments untenable

www.ft.com

This is an interesting decision from Getlink, and one I think they’ll come to regret. Unaccompanied freight is a growing market and it’s one that they can’t compete in without building facilities like these, and it’s more traffic lost to ferry companies.

 

[Austriantrain]

I agree, but the question is whether the demand for all those connections from Brussels is there and if there is capacity to have all those trains go the same way to Cologne first and then split. Given that all those connections are already operating from Cologne, it might be better to get there. However, then the question becomes whether Cologne can support the international operations, a question Jon Worth’s report says an emphatic no to.

Given that for connections, Cologne is essential if you want to make a E* to Germany work, I believe DB will find a way if they want such a service. Going nonstop to Frankfurt reduces the market potential so much that I don‘t think it could work.

Mind, if DB finds a way, there is no guarantee that that way will enable on-time operation.

 

[30907]

Given that for connections, Cologne is essential if you want to make a E* to Germany work, I believe DB will find a way if they want such a service.

The conflicting movements to access P1 London-bound would be awkward, but we are only talking about a handful of trains a day, not an hourly service..
You would have to prioritise the trains coming off the Hohenzollern Bridge over everything else, and have some pathing time to ensure a smooth departure towards Aachen.

 

[NCT]

Can Cologne afford to have something disrupting what wants to be an hourly takt even if it's just the odd hours?

 

[quantinghome]

Still, Germany will never be a country where an HS train will ever travel hundreds of kilometers nonstop at 320 km/h. This is just a fact, and once again, there are very good reasons for it and a couple of direct E* trains a day will never change the equation, even though they might be very practical.

It's not just Eurostar though. Even now the quickest way to get from Brussels to the Upper Rhine region is via Paris. That's a journey in which you start off going in the completely opposite direction to where you're aiming for, where you travel for nearly two hours before you're any closer to your destination than when you started your journey, and it's STILL quicker!

In fact it wouldn't be a bad idea to build a cut-off high speed line between LGV Est and LGV Nord, say between Champagne-Ardennes and Haute-Picardie stations - that would get you from Lille to Strasbourg in 2 hours, and Brussels to Strasbourg in 2.5 hours. This would easily be the quickest way from Belgium and Netherlands to south-west Germany and Switzerland. Extend the cut-off to Amiens and up to the Channel (effectively resurrecting LGV Picardie) and you could do London-Strasbourg in little over 3 hours, opening up a whole host of journeys, as well provide significantly faster direct internal services within France.

Maybe Germany is happy for other countries to take on the role of providing cross-European high speed services.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's not just Eurostar though. Even now the quickest way to get from Brussels to the Upper Rhine region is via Paris. That's a journey in which you start off going in the completely opposite direction to where you're aiming for, where you travel for nearly two hours before you're any closer to your destination than when you started your journey, and it's STILL quicker!

It actually is the logical route to take and historically, trains from Brussels in this direction never touched Germany, because it makes no sense to first travel into the center of Germany to then go southwest again. The „detour“ via Paris is simply a consequence of the distorting effect of HSLs, meaning that this route is now much faster than the original one via Luxembourg.

If there is a deficit there, it is the lack of a decent Brussels- Lille - Charles de Gaulle - Strasbourg offer, which is entirely down to SNCF and the French rules of HSL use.

In fact it wouldn't be a bad idea to build a cut-off high speed line between LGV Est and LGV Nord, say between Champagne-Ardennes and Haute-Picardie stations - that would get you from Lille to Strasbourg in 2 hours, and Brussels to Strasbourg in 2.5 hours. This would easily be the quickest way from Belgium and Netherlands to south-west Germany and Switzerland. Extend the cut-off to Amiens and up to the Channel (effectively resurrecting LGV Picardie) and you could do London-Strasbourg in little over 3 hours, opening up a whole host of journeys, as well provide significantly faster direct internal services within France.

Another crayonista proposal which will never happen.

Maybe Germany is happy for other countries to take on the role of providing cross-European high speed services.

You do have a special place in your heart for German railways, do you?

 

[Farnborough]

Frankfurt has the business travel and Cologne is a useful hub for connecting to everywhere else in Germany.

Interestingly, British Airways has recently announced that it is cutting flights from Heathrow to Cologne and Stuttgart.

 

[quantinghome]

Another crayonista proposal which will never happen.

Well this is the speculative thread isn't it?

 

[BRX]

There's a notably large "hole" in the European railway network, roughly in the triangle between Liege, Luxembourg and Cologne, which makes east/west travel a bit awkward; you are forced to choose between going around the top or the bottom of it. The hole in HS lines is of course even larger.

 

[signed]

In fact it wouldn't be a bad idea to build a cut-off high speed line between LGV Est and LGV Nord, say between Champagne-Ardennes and Haute-Picardie stations - that would get you from Lille to Strasbourg in 2 hours, and Brussels to Strasbourg in 2.5 hours. This would easily be the quickest way from Belgium and Netherlands to south-west Germany and Switzerland. Extend the cut-off to Amiens and up to the Channel (effectively resurrecting LGV Picardie) and you could do London-Strasbourg in little over 3 hours, opening up a whole host of journeys, as well provide significantly faster direct internal services within France.

There is barely anyone in that stretch. Especially when the direct train from Brussels to Strasbourg only takes 3h30. For the investment it isn't worth at all.

In an ideal world, there would be much more than 2 direct trains a day between Brussels and Strasbourg.

But even without that, changing between Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est is one of the least painful changes in Paris. SNCF even sells 10min connections at CDG for the aventurous.

 

[Tester]

There's a notably large "hole" in the European railway network, roughly in the triangle between Liege, Luxembourg and Cologne, which makes east/west travel a bit awkward; you are forced to choose between going around the top or the bottom of it. The hole in HS lines is of course even larger.

Yes - that's where the erstwhile Vennbahn (well worth checking out - a strip of Belgian territory within Germany) would have filled the gap nicely.

On my list to walk.