Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[quantinghome]

Sleeper train?

This would be a good shout for London-Berlin. The Brussels-Berlin sleeper isn't really much use for London - the vagaries of the sleeper timings mean giving yourself a long connection at Brussels. Coupled with Eurostar check-in, you're looking at turning up at St. Pancras at midday, only to disembark bleary-eyed in Berlin shortly after 6am. Travelling from outside London it's even worse. You may as well get a train a bit earlier, get to Berlin in the evening on the same day and get a good night's sleep in a hotel.

By contrast a London-Berlin sleeper could leave as late as the French LGV lines allow, getting into Berlin at a far more civilised time.

 

[popeter45]

any idea where they could fit boarder checks at Manchester?
surely there must have been such plans when Regional Eurostar was being planned?

 

[Tester]

any idea where they could fit boarder checks at Manchester?
surely there must have been such plans when Regional Eurostar was being planned?

When Regional Eurostar was being planned, border controls would have been carried out on train.

 

[SynthD]

By contrast a London-Berlin sleeper could leave as late as the French LGV lines allow, getting into Berlin at a far more civilised time.

The French fast lines don't allow all that late, and the slow lines can only get you so far by the usual arrival time of sleepers. See Bald Rick's estimates from last year. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ight-journeys-from-london.273837/post-6947693

 

[HSTEd]

The last train from London to Brussels departs at around 1930.
You won't be able to leave much later than that if you want to use LGV Nord.

Using the slow lines, as noted, you will have to leave significantly earlier than that.

 

[Farigiraf]

I also believe that if International services were to return, advertisements promoting attractions from Ashford International to those coming from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and other countries would be necessary. Kent isn't short of attractions to see/market from Ashford International and would certainly help the local economy if such an International service resumed.

While elimination of the London doubleback is the most important reason for Ashford to deserve international calls, this does have a lot of potential. Admittedly it won't garner similar tourist numbers as Disneyland Paris, but from Ashford you have direct services or good connections to Canterbury, Battle and Brighton which all have some tourist draw. Battle particularly as a national pride landmark for the French
For Brighton to be more feasible via Ashford rather than St Pancras, Southern could accelerate a process of getting battery units to replace 171s (or fitting a battery on the 377s) and combine the Brighton-Eastbourne train with the Eastbourne-Ashford. This would beat Thameslink from St Pancras by journey time (just) and by convenience (considerably).

 

[NCT]

I think flogging Brighton in the hope of improving the Marshlink is scraping the barrel somewhat ...

 

[LLivery]

Agreed, it's certainly a start to reintroducing International rail services to Kent, even if it is to Lille, it's better than the current 'abandoned status' of Ashford and Ebbsfleet stations, and I would certainly be interested in trying such a service out.

A London - Brussels stopper would be great. Could even be a joint GBR/SNCF operation. Make it cheap enough and it could almost be like the Paris-Brussel Ouigo.

I would love to have cross-nightrains, but It makes much more financial sense to run a 900 pax High speed train than a 200 pax sleeper on very expensive high speed sections (not to talk about the cafuffle with the border controls)

True, but it's the length of the journey for a day service which surprised me. It'd be what? ~8hrs? And I don't know why, but I picture people being more willing to take a sleeper to Berlin (maybe that's leftover Eastern Bloc imagery).

 

[Elecman]

Well that's the bit of HS2 they've apparently re-started the process of selling off the acquired land for, so it's probably a few decades off now...

No it’s phase 2b they are selling off ( the East Midlands leg not phase 2a to Crewe

 

[signed]

True, but it's the length of the journey for a day service which surprised me. It'd be what? ~8hrs? And I don't know why, but I picture people being more willing to take a sleeper to Berlin (maybe that's leftover Eastern Bloc imagery).

9h something

Paris-Frankfurt-Berlin is 8h right now in ICE (I despise that service for exisiting, I understand it's political and that it's mostly made as just an extension of the Stuttgart-Paris to serve the intermediate stops, German railways don't need more of the extra-long services). From Brussels with a change in Cologne, it takes 6h30 right now.

 

[Zomboid]

By contrast a London-Berlin sleeper could leave as late as the French LGV lines allow, getting into Berlin at a far more civilised time.

Would it necessarily need to use them?

 

[Krokodil]

The last train from London to Brussels departs at around 1930.
You won't be able to leave much later than that if you want to use LGV Nord.

You wouldn't want to depart later anyway, not if you're going to want to get to Berlin by 10am with allowances for diversions.

 

[LLivery]

9h something

Paris-Frankfurt-Berlin is 8h right now in ICE (I despise that service for exisiting, I understand it's political and that it's mostly made as just an extension of the Stuttgart-Paris to serve the intermediate stops, German railways don't need more of the extra-long services). From Brussels with a change in Cologne, it takes 6h30 right now.

7hrs I can manage, 8 is a push, but 9? I'm not sure I'd fancy that without a bed.

Has the Paris - Berlin service been reliable?

The London-Berlin service does seem to be the same kind of political idea, agreed in the Kensington Treaty, and Steinmeier has just secured a state visit to the UK.

 

[quantinghome]

I would love to have cross-nightrains, but It makes much more financial sense to run a 900 pax High speed train than a 200 pax sleeper on very expensive high speed sections (not to talk about the cafuffle with the border controls)

You'd get a lot more than that if you used the full available length of 400m - the new Nightjet fits in 40 in a couchette/mini-cabin carriage, 20 in a sleeping carriage. 500 without breaking sweat.

 

[signed]

You'd get a lot more than that if you used the full available length of 400m - the new Nightjet fits in 40 in a couchette/mini-cabin carriage, 20 in a sleeping carriage. 500 without breaking sweat.

Fair

 

[Trainlog]

While elimination of the London doubleback is the most important reason for Ashford to deserve international calls, this does have a lot of potential. Admittedly it won't garner similar tourist numbers as Disneyland Paris, but from Ashford you have direct services or good connections to Canterbury, Battle and Brighton which all have some tourist draw. Battle particularly as a national pride landmark for the French
For Brighton to be more feasible via Ashford rather than St Pancras, Southern could accelerate a process of getting battery units to replace 171s (or fitting a battery on the 377s) and combine the Brighton-Eastbourne train with the Eastbourne-Ashford. This would beat Thameslink from St Pancras by journey time (just) and by convenience (considerably).

Absolutely, I wouldn't expect it to make Disneyland Paris levels of tourism, but there is plenty of potential in tourism terms if the link was restored. There are plenty of Castles, two cathedrals, several coastal towns and beaches, numerous
museums, shopping outlets, zoos, and heritage railways that could be promoted should such a link return.

I think flogging Brighton in the hope of improving the Marshlink is scraping the barrel somewhat ...

I don't know, I would suggest going to Rye on a Saturday, granted I went during August, but the turbostar was rather packed both ways. The Marshlink could definitely qualify for some more passing loops to enable a half-hourly rather than hourly service.

A London - Brussels stopper would be great. Could even be a joint GBR/SNCF operation. Make it cheap enough and it could almost be like the Paris-Brussel Ouigo.

That would definitely be a service I would like to stop at Ashford, especially with Brussels being a good hub for onward travel to places such as the Netherlands and Germany. With it being cheap, it would be even more welcome.

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely, I wouldn't expect it to make Disneyland Paris levels of tourism, but there is plenty of potential in tourism terms if the link was restored. There are plenty of Castles, two cathedrals, several coastal towns and beaches, numerous
museums, shopping outlets, zoos, and heritage railways that could be promoted should such a link return.

If you were doing touristy things in Kent, you are probably driving there. There's a small market in people who don't want to drive on the other side of the road but might go to Canterbury Cathedral or Dover Castle, but this is going to be pretty low level.

I don't know, I would suggest going to Rye on a Saturday, granted I went during August, but the turbostar was rather packed both ways. The Marshlink could definitely qualify for some more passing loops to enable a half-hourly rather than hourly service.

The level of connecting traffic between Marshlink and HS1 at Ashford will be very low, certainly not enough to drive infrastructure change on it's own. Marshlink might make a case for extending the double-track for a half-hourly service between Hastings and Rye on it's own, but the idea that hordes of people from the East Sussex coast will be travelling to Ashford for the continental train is rather optimistic

That would definitely be a service I would like to stop at Ashford, especially with Brussels being a good hub for onward travel to places such as the Netherlands and Germany. With it being cheap, it would be even more welcome.

No cross-channel operation will be cheap. HS1 Charges for track occupancy by the minute, and the tunnel charges a fee per path and per passenger.

 

[Zomboid]

Ashford would be largely for British people from Kent and Sussex. It's got a nice big car park, isn't far from the motorway, and is pretty well connected by rail to Kent. There ought to be a market for more than zero trains per day from such a place.

 

[TrainTraveler]

There are multiple aspects to the additional channel tunnel services question.

I suspect the alternative service operator would prefer St Pancras but from my experience the current terminal is often uncomfortably full and expanding the secure area by chucking out the adjacent retail will only get you a modest expansion.

There are built but unused facilities at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International and Ashford International. Each has its merits, Ashford has useful onward rail connections, Stratford International is walkable to the main Stratford and Ebbsfleet is close to the M25.

If the service were to terminate short of St Pancras then Stratford International doesn't seem ideal.

Both Ebbsfleet and Ashford look like they might be possible terminating locations for trains from continental Europe but I guess they may not individually have the capacity for a Eurostar trainload of passengers to be marshalled.

Perhaps a service starting at Ebbsfleet and picking up additional passengers at Ashford would work.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Ryanair famously advertises Charleroi as 'Brussels' (nearly 30 miles distant) and Gatwick isn't much nearer to central London. If access fees could be made more competitive to operators then surely 'low-cost' continental services from the likes of Ebbsfleet or even Ashford might have a market?

 

[Palmerston]

This might be answered somehow else, but have we passed the "point of no return" of connecting HS1 to HS2? I know the link got canned, but is anything in its way yet, that would make building it vastly more expensive than originally planned?

It felt to me this link could have made Stratford International an actual international station, as trains could have stopped there and bypassed St Pancras without bypassing London altogether.

 

[zwk500]

This might be answered somehow else, but have we passed the "point of no return" of connecting HS1 to HS2? I know the link got canned, but is anything in its way yet, that would make building it vastly more expensive than originally planned?

Yes. The design for OOC precludes the inclusion of another tunnel portal. And I don't really know how it'd have connected to HS1. We'd need a significant advancement of technology or a major service disruption on each line to adjust the tunnels.

 

[Zomboid]

At this stage any HS2-1 link needs to look at whether there's a way to get a line from HS2 onto a route which has access to the NLL.

And I don't think there really is given how much of it is in a tunnel south of Aylesbury. The Colne valley viaduct is about the only open air section, and whilst it's close to the Chiltern line it's not a great place to build a junction with all that water. But if you did I suppose it could run down past Greenford to somewhere near OOC where the NLL crosses... You'd never get anywhere near a decent BCR for that though.

 

[JamesT]

I think the key question, regardless of how technically feasible such a link is; how much of the demand of Eurostar is for central London, either as a source or a destination? Are you going to fill trains with passengers on a service that misses it out?

 

[zwk500]

At this stage any HS2-1 link needs to look at whether there's a way to get a line from HS2 onto a route which has access to the NLL.
And I don't think there really is given how much of it is in a tunnel south of Aylesbury. The Colne valley viaduct is about the only open air section, and whilst it's close to the Chiltern line it's not a great place to build a junction with all that water. But if you did I suppose it could run down past Greenford to somewhere near OOC where the NLL crosses... You'd never get anywhere near a decent BCR for that though.

The only sensible place to leave HS2 is just east of Old Oak Common, and the station box does not leave any provision for an additional tunnel portal (even single track). IIRC the preferred design for the link had a single-track tunnel coming up in between the two main running tunnels of HS2 so that trains could filter on or off without impeding the flow of a following HS2 train to/from Euston.
When HS1 was being planned into St Pancras, there was probably an option to secure enough land around the railway corridor to safeguard a potential HS1-HS2 link, but alas now that boat has largely gone with the scale of development now.

 

[bspahh]

This might be answered somehow else, but have we passed the "point of no return" of connecting HS1 to HS2? I know the link got canned, but is anything in its way yet, that would make building it vastly more expensive than originally planned?

It felt to me this link could have made Stratford International an actual international station, as trains could have stopped there and bypassed St Pancras without bypassing London altogether.

Given sufficient concrete, in civil engineering, many things are possible. The problem with an HS1 to HS2 link is a political one. It would cause a huge amount of inconvenience and cost a lot, to help the journeys for relatively few people.

There was a thread earlier this year which discussed if it was possible to build a link between HS1 and HS2

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

Was cancelling the HS2-HS1 tunnel between Old oak Common and St Pancras a mistake , if anything i think this is one of the most short-sighted cancellations of HS2 as it prevents linking the larger European rail network to the Uk's that would potentially provide an international rail link from...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you don't want to read 10 pages of posts, post #248 is a good place to start

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

I Think the best way to.make this work is to terminate HS2 trains at Euston. Fully segregated track work to reduce delays, i can just imagine the reliability issues you would have trying to intertwine HS2, javelin and eurostar services would be disastrous running through St Pancras. My honest...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[RT4038]

Ashford would be largely for British people from Kent and Sussex. It's got a nice big car park, isn't far from the motorway, and is pretty well connected by rail to Kent. There ought to be a market for more than zero trains per day from such a place.

There wasn't much market from Ashford when E* trains did stop there. What has changed since then to make any material difference?

 

[NCT]

There might just be a case if the cost of providing an Ashford call is just standard railway costs.

 

[Snow1964]

This might be answered somehow else, but have we passed the "point of no return" of connecting HS1 to HS2? I know the link got canned, but is anything in its way yet, that would make building it vastly more expensive than originally planned?

It felt to me this link could have made Stratford International an actual international station, as trains could have stopped there and bypassed St Pancras without bypassing London altogether.

The answer is yes and no
Yes, currently descoped, no is it could still be done as follows.

One version of the plan had step plate style junctions in the Camden area, it is not too late to include these, as tunnels in that area have not been started. Strictly an access area that will eventually become a ventilation headhouse was started in Camden area, but work on it was included in the pause, so remains in a part built safe stop state.

There is already one step plate style divergence planned (the HS2 tunnels run at different levels near Camden, and the southbound towards Euston splits into two, one going to either side of the platform fan, the leaving Euston northbound tunnel is in the centre of the platform fan). This is to minimise crossing conflicts.

As Euston might now be smaller, it might be possible to still add another junction in same area, even if at this stage no HS1-HS2 link is dug. Many people think it would be foolish not to add junction provision, especially with a reduced size Euston (lack of it will permanently prevent both European services getting to Birmingham, and some services from Midlands and North being extended to Ebbsfleet or Ashford for International connections).

HS1 has provision for a spur towards the north London line at Camden Road, and from memory one of two tracks was laid. It might be possible to instead build a diving ramp towards HS2 from these spurs. Wouldn't be high speed (as in 100+mph) due to curvature, but as trains on HS1 run relatively slowly as they curve into St Pancras, and trains on HS2 will only be about mile or two from Euston they won't be at very high speed either, so even a link line at about 50-60mph is not going to eat capacity (at least not whilst less than around 18 trains per hour is usage rate of HS2).

Really it is a question of money, in two stages, build junction provision, then second phase build link. Technically from construction point of view, there is no reason cannot be done.

 

[Cach17]

I've thought for ages that advertising Canterbury as a connecting destination would be a boon for Ashford regarding international train calls. Plenty of French school kids have paid the city a visit, certainly.

Given sufficient concrete, in civil engineering, many things are possible. The problem with an HS1 to HS2 link is a political one. It would cause a huge amount of inconvenience and cost a lot, to help the journeys for relatively few people.

There was a thread earlier this year which discussed if it was possible to build a link between HS1 and HS2

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

Was cancelling the HS2-HS1 tunnel between Old oak Common and St Pancras a mistake , if anything i think this is one of the most short-sighted cancellations of HS2 as it prevents linking the larger European rail network to the Uk's that would potentially provide an international rail link from...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you don't want to read 10 pages of posts, post #248 is a good place to start

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

I Think the best way to.make this work is to terminate HS2 trains at Euston. Fully segregated track work to reduce delays, i can just imagine the reliability issues you would have trying to intertwine HS2, javelin and eurostar services would be disastrous running through St Pancras. My honest...

www.railforums.co.uk

The utterly unhinged assertions made by supposed expert Mr. Jefkins will never not entertain me.