Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Bald Rick]

To chuck a further complicating factor into the mix, I also wonder if running HS2 trains through to (say) Ashford to allow an interchange with International services would assist in the viability of an alternative operator.

Well, it’s not physically possible, so I’d say no!

 

[Zomboid]

Probably wouldn't help much if it were possible.

If HS2 to HS1 was being built then operating from Birmingham to Paris would probably be the desirable service - perhaps those imaginary trains could call at a Kent station. A securable platform and customs facilities at Curzon St would be much more possible than closing the gap between railways.

 

[Snow1964]

Travel and Tour World has an article on expansion of Trenitalia (Italy) expansion of International services, and describes upcoming increase from 9 to 14 per day on Lyon services, and reintroduction of Paris-Milan.

However it also gives some more details of proposed tie up with Evolyn to introduce London services from 2029 (which is I think is year or two earlier than others are proposing, possibly because fleet is add on option to trains currently being delivered)

As international travel continues to rebound, Trenitalia, Italy’s national railway company, is making significant strides in enhancing its rail connectivity across Europe. With the expansion of its Frecciarossa high-speed train services, the company is not only meeting the growing demand for faster and more efficient travel but also opening up new avenues for tourists exploring popular French and Italian destinations. This expansion brings more accessible travel options to tourists, providing a convenient and sustainable alternative to flying.

Starting on December 14, 2025, Trenitalia will increase the frequency of its high-speed trains between Paris and Lyon, a key route for both business and leisure travelers. The company plans to operate 14 daily round trips, up from the current 9, catering to the rising demand for more frequent connections between the two cities. This expansion will offer greater flexibility for passengers, making it easier to travel between Paris, a cultural hub, and Lyon, known for its rich culinary scene and UNESCO World Heritage sites.

In addition to the Paris–Lyon route, Trenitalia is bringing back its Paris–Milanservice, which had previously been suspended. This popular route will now operate with two daily round trips, providing convenient connections through the scenic Alps. Winter sports enthusiasts will benefit from the route, as it stops at key stations such as Chambéry, Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne, Modane, and Oulx, offering easy access to the ski resorts of the Alps. With tickets starting at €35, the reintroduction of the Paris–Milan service will appeal to travelers eager to explore both cities as well as the surrounding mountains.

Trenitalia is also enhancing its presence in southern France, with a new addition to its network. Since June 15, 2025, four daily round trips have been introduced between Paris and Marseille, a popular destination for those seeking the charm of the Mediterranean. This route connects Paris with major stops, including Lyon Saint-Exupéry Airport, Avignon TGV, and Aix-en-Provence TGV, making it an attractive option for those looking to explore southern France. Tickets for this route are available from €27, offering an affordable and efficient way to access the Mediterranean region, which is known for its warm weather, beautiful coastlines, and cultural attractions.

The new rail services are not only providing added convenience for passengers but also making travel more sustainable. By offering high-speed trains as an alternative to domestic flights, Trenitalia is contributing to reducing carbon emissions in the travel sector. Sustainable tourism is becoming an increasingly important factor for travelers, and Trenitalia’s services are supporting this shift toward eco-friendly travel.

Looking to the future, Trenitalia has ambitious plans to expand its high-speed network even further. The company, in collaboration with Evolyn, is working on a project to connect Paris and London with high-speed rail services by 2029. The project, which is expected to cost around €1 billion, will offer a competitive alternative to the Eurostar and further strengthen the tourism connection between these two iconic capitals. With Frecciarossa trains offering premium service, this new route will provide tourists and business travelers alike with more options for crossing the English Channel quickly and comfortably.

This ambitious expansion is expected to boost tourism between France and Italy, providing more direct and faster connections for tourists exploring Europe. With increased train frequency, new routes to Southern France, and the upcoming Paris-London high-speed line, Trenitalia is positioning itself as a leading force in European rail travel. This expansion will not only improve accessibility for tourists but also offer greater flexibility for those traveling for business, particularly in the wake of increased demand for seamless connectivity between major European cities.

Trenitalia’s new routes and expanded services are a positive development for the tourism industry in France and Italy. By improving connectivity between major cities and key travel hubs, the company is offering travelers more choices, ease, and convenience. Whether it’s the cultural appeal of Paris, the culinary delights of Lyon, or the Mediterranean allure of Marseille, Trenitalia’s services are ensuring that tourists have access to a broader range of destinations in a more sustainable manner.

Trenitalia’s expansion of its high-speed train services is a significant step forward for European tourism. Not only does it offer travelers more options and flexibility, but it also supports the growing trend toward sustainable travel. As Trenitalia continues to enhance its rail network, tourists can look forward to a more accessible, efficient, and eco-friendly way to explore some of the most popular destinations in Europe. The future of rail travel in Europe is looking brighter, with greater opportunities for exploration and enjoyment for travelers from around the world.

Trenitalia Expands Rail Services in France, Enhancing Travel for Tourists and Business Travelers - Travel And Tour World

Trenitalia France, high-speed train services, Paris Lyon route, Paris Milan rail, sustainable tourism Europe, Trenitalia new routes, rail travel France Italy, Paris Marseille train, winter sports travel Alps, eco-friendly rail travel, Frecciarossa services, Paris London high-speed rail...

www.travelandtourworld.com

 

[LLivery]

The House of Commons published a Research Briefing the other day on Eurostar and potential competitors

On Evolyn/Trenitalia is says:

Trenitalia France

Trenitalia France is a subsidiary of FS Group, the Italian state rail operator and co-owner of British train operator Avanti West Coast. 41 It currently operates services between Paris, Lyon and Milan, and between Paris and Marseilles.42 In April 2025, it announced plans to operate train services between London and Paris from 2029, initially comprising ten round trips per day between these cities. A second phase may include the expansion of services to intermediate stops (such as Ashford International) and other destinations in France and Italy (such as Lille, Marseilles and Milan).43 Services would be operated using Hitachi ETR1000 ‘Frecciarossa’ trains, the same type as are currently used on Trenitalia France services between Paris and Milan, and on some high-speed Trenitalia routes in Italy.44

Evolyn

Evolyn is part of the CMC group, a family business owned by the Cosmen family. 45 Initial plans are to operate trains between London and Paris, with potential to serve Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford International stations, as well as international destinations such as Brussels and Amsterdam.46 It plans to use Avelia Horizon double-decker trains from train manufacturer Alstom.47 Evolyn has been negotiating a Memorandum of Understanding with FS Group, parent company of Trenitalia France. However, as of 18 July 2025, a definitive agreement had not yet been reached.48

Summing up proposals:

• Eurostar: St Pancras - Geneva, Frankfurt (early 2030s; stock: up to 50 new trains)
• Evolyn: St Pancras (potentially HS1 calls) - Brussels, Amsterdam (no date; stock: Alstom Avelia Horizon)
• Trenitalia: 10 daily St Pancras (potentially Ashford) - Paris, further phase expansion to Marseilles and Milan (2029 launch; stock: Hitachi ETR1000)
• Gemini: 10 day Stratford - Paris; 8 daily Brussels (2029 launch; stock: we now know is Siemens Velaro Novo)
• Virgin: 13 daily London - Paris; 4 daily London - Brussels; 3 daily London - Amsterdam (2030 launch; stock: Alstom Avelia Stream)

Edit:

• DB in discussions with someone for London, Brussels - Köln - Frankfurt - Berlin
• UK & Swiss and UK & German governments have signed MOUs for working something out.

 

[Trainbike46]

I would hope that Trenitalia, given their maintenance facilities in Milan, would offer (at least) 1tpd London-MLV-(possibly intermediate stations)-Milan from the start, to serve these flows:
- London-Milan
- London-Disney
- Disney-Milan
- Connections offered at MLV (Lille, Brussels, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam to/from Milan; South of France to/from London)

On the way back it would have to be a MLV shuffle, so you can take non-London flows until there. Ideally, you'd offer through tickets with Eurostar and SNCF (including Ouigo) for the connections. This way, you make an advantage out of the need to get trains to Milan.

 

[StephenHunter]

I would hope that Trenitalia, given their maintenance facilities in Milan, would offer (at least) 1tpd London-MLV-(possibly intermediate stations)-Milan from the start, to serve these flows:
- London-Milan
- London-Disney
- Disney-Milan
- Connections offered at MLV (Lille, Brussels, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam to/from Milan; South of France to/from London)

On the way back it would have to be a MLV shuffle, so you can take non-London flows until there. Ideally, you'd offer through tickets with Eurostar and SNCF (including Ouigo) for the connections. This way, you make an advantage out of the need to get trains to Milan.

Not necessarily - Milano Centrale does have the space for border checks. It's a very big station, built in a Roman style so Il Duce could show off.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not necessarily - Milano Centrale does have the space for border checks. It's a very big station, built in a Roman style so Il Duce could show off.

It's great to hear there is space for border checks in Milan.

However, I would expect the cost of installing and staffing checks with a limited initial service, combined with the fact that it would prevent taking passengers on intermediat flows would make it uneconomic, and that was my reasoning for stating that an MLV shuffle would be necessary, unless passenger numbers grow very quickly.

It would require both the French exit and UK entry checks to take place at MLV, in contrast with how only French exit checks happened there back when Eurostar ran services to MLV. However, these checks could be shared with other services between London and MLV and beyond (if they happen).

 

[cle]

The House of Commons published a Research Briefing the other day on Eurostar and potential competitors

On Evolyn/Trenitalia is says:



Summing up proposals:

• Eurostar: St Pancras - Geneva, Frankfurt (early 2030s; stock: up to 50 new trains)
• Evolyn: St Pancras (potentially HS1 calls) - Brussels, Amsterdam (no date; stock: Alstom Avelia Horizon)
• Trenitalia: 10 daily St Pancras (potentially Ashford) - Paris, further phase expansion to Marseilles and Milan (2029 launch; stock: Hitachi ETR1000)
• Gemini: 10 day Stratford - Paris; 8 daily Brussels (2029 launch; stock: we now know is Siemens Velaro Novo)
• Virgin: 13 daily London - Paris; 4 daily London - Brussels; 3 daily London - Amsterdam (2030 launch; stock: Alstom Avelia Stream)

Thanks for collating this. If even half go ahead, it’d be very interesting times.

I wonder how they’d cope at Gare du Nord, which to me is even more constrained than St P for departures.

 

[signed]

Thanks for collating this. If even half go ahead, it’d be very interesting times.

Only one can go ahead for now, at least until someone decide to build another HS1 depot or do the service without any depot in the UK

 

[Sorcerer]

Trenitalia running to Milan even once daily would allow the fleet to receive heavy maintenance at their depot there rather than Temple Mills in London, so I can imagine any trains needing such work would be rostered to run on a daily service to Milan to later be taken to the depot while the rest of the fleet gets seen to in London and Paris. If nothing else it would make what would otherwise be an empty stock movement a little bit more lucrative, assuming that the ORR doesn't grant the depot space to someone else. At this point it might just be a question as to how much competition matters, otherwise Eurostar expansion would be an easy choice.

 

[Krokodil]

It's great to hear there is space for border checks in Milan.

However, I would expect the cost of installing and staffing checks with a limited initial service, combined with the fact that it would prevent taking passengers on intermediat flows would make it uneconomic, and that was my reasoning for stating that an MLV shuffle would be necessary, unless passenger numbers grow very quickly.

I would imagine that it would begin like Eurostar's Amsterdam service did. Once the service is established then build the border control infrastructure. Intra-Schengen passengers can still be carried - Eurostar used to do it, and just because they no longer view it to be worthwhile between Brussels and Lille, doesn't mean that it would not be worthwhile for Milan-Paris.

 

[signed]

At this point it might just be a question as to how much competition matters, otherwise Eurostar expansion would be an easy choice.

Does Eurostar even needs extra depot space to run the Frankfurt and Geneva services?

 

[Snow1964]

The House of Commons published a Research Briefing the other day on Eurostar and potential competitors

On Evolyn/Trenitalia is says:

Summing up proposals:

• Eurostar: St Pancras - Geneva, Frankfurt (early 2030s; stock: up to 50 new trains)
• Evolyn: St Pancras (potentially HS1 calls) - Brussels, Amsterdam (no date; stock: Alstom Avelia Horizon)
• Trenitalia: 10 daily St Pancras (potentially Ashford) - Paris, further phase expansion to Marseilles and Milan (2029 launch; stock: Hitachi ETR1000)
• Gemini: 10 day Stratford - Paris; 8 daily Brussels (2029 launch; stock: we now know is Siemens Velaro Novo)
• Virgin: 13 daily London - Paris; 4 daily London - Brussels; 3 daily London - Amsterdam (2030 launch; stock: Alstom Avelia Stream)

It is not clear if Trenitalia and Evolyn are still competing (the Government report was in the summer), the Travel and Tour World interview is October and refers to a collaboration.

 

[Sorcerer]

Does Eurostar even needs extra depot space to run the Frankfurt and Geneva services?

I expect they might need some for an order of up to 50 new trains, and even if they ended up with no depot space at Frankfurt and Geneva I don't think that would concern the ORR since their only consideration is Temple Mills depot space. That said the remaining eleven Class 373s which make up almost half the cross-channel fleet will need replacements soon, so any new orders will probably cover that as well as their respective depot slots.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Sorry if this is a repeat question, but do we the great unwashed masses know what criteria the ORR are using to decide who gets depot space at TMI?

 

[SynthD]

There was a public letter several pages back about permitting a viable candidate to the depot, but it didn’t clear up our questions about multiple candidates. In the way Sorcerer sets out in #1510, it would be helpful if the ORR said Temple Mills should host multiple new providers even if they can’t do heavy maintenance for their own trains on site. It’s the secure storage that is key, plus light work like fuel and toilet tanks.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Everyone seems to be chatting to the Times these days, Trenitalia have claimed they will be reopening Ashford International in the event of a favourable ORR decision.

Rival to Eurostar says it will reopen Ashford International

Italian operator plans to plough £1 billion into UK economy and resuscitate railway station if it gets the green light for a Channel Tunnel service

www.thetimes.com

Italy’s state-owned train operator is planning to plough up to £1 billion into the UK economy and reopen Ashford International railway station in Kent, if it gets the go-ahead for a rival to Eurostar.

Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane (FS) says it is the best-placed competitor to provide a credible alternative to Eurostar, which has enjoyed a monopoly on train services through the Channel Tunnel since 1994.

It is one of a clutch of train companies — including Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Group — looking to launch a rival to Eurostar.

Francesco De Leo-Kaufmann, the international head of FS, said that the Italian operator was one step ahead of its rivals because it already holds the necessary accreditation for operating on the European continent, as well as having access to a pipeline of new trains.

 

[LLivery]

Milan would be very interesting, especially after the new route is complete. And with a a serious food offering onboard, I'll happily do it. If South of France worked, I can see Milan working.

Thanks for collating this. If even half go ahead, it’d be very interesting times.

I wonder how they’d cope at Gare du Nord, which to me is even more constrained than St P for departures.

Only wish it started sooner!

Paris - I've been wondering the same. It's not the most pleasant at the moment in the Eurostar Hall. Maybe there's plans to board the trains quicker as planned for London?

Trenitalia running to Milan even once daily would allow the fleet to receive heavy maintenance at their depot there rather than Temple Mills in London, so I can imagine any trains needing such work would be rostered to run on a daily service to Milan to later be taken to the depot while the rest of the fleet gets seen to in London and Paris. If nothing else it would make what would otherwise be an empty stock movement a little bit more lucrative, assuming that the ORR doesn't grant the depot space to someone else. At this point it might just be a question as to how much competition matters, otherwise Eurostar expansion would be an easy choice.

That would be a very interesting work around at least for the interim. As they're 8 cars, I imagine you could double them up as well?

 

[Howardh]

Could eurotunnel trains start and finish at Stratford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet? Thinking much smaller ones for a more "local" service; and also as a starting point could take pressure off St Pancras as the new protocols begin? Has it ever been considered in the past?

 

[Trainbike46]

Could eurotunnel trains start and finish at Stratford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet? Thinking much smaller ones for a more "local" service; and also as a starting point could take pressure off St Pancras as the new protocols begin? Has it ever been considered in the past?

In theory yes.

But, if finishing in Stratford, that would require running empty into St Pancras (and back) to turn the train around.

For all three of those stations, the border capacity was never designed to host anything close to a full train, so that is further challenge (or more likely), full blocker.

In the medium term St Pancras isn't a block to expansion anyway, so why would you not serve it?

 

[LLivery]

Everyone seems to be chatting to the Times these days, Trenitalia have claimed they will be reopening Ashford International in the event of a favourable ORR decision.

Rival to Eurostar says it will reopen Ashford International

Italian operator plans to plough £1 billion into UK economy and resuscitate railway station if it gets the green light for a Channel Tunnel service

www.thetimes.com

Well, that's good. Ashford International deserves its International back.

Could eurotunnel trains start and finish at Stratford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet? Thinking much smaller ones for a more "local" service; and also as a starting point could take pressure off St Pancras as the new protocols begin? Has it ever been considered in the past?

I would love to see a Oresundstag style stopper, but post-Brexit, I'd be astounded

 

[Sorcerer]

That would be a very interesting work around at least for the interim. As they're 8 cars, I imagine you could double them up as well?

You probably could double them up actually, yes. I believe high-speed line platforms on the continent are long enough to accommodate a 404m long double set. The question is whether it would be worth the cost because I can't imagine a London to Milan rail route would demand more than a single set because of the time and distance. Perhaps it would though, the only way to know for sure is if Trenitalia go for it.

Speaking of Trenitalia, I welcome their proposal to reopen Ashford. Having a Kent parkway station will save many southerners from double-backing in London and in return would also relieve capacity at St. Pancras. Though I am lead to wonder whether they will be prepared to subsidise it's operation or whether it'll fall on the DfT to keep the station going. Eurostar don't seem to be willing to at the moment though, that's for sure.

 

[Cach17]

Could eurotunnel trains start and finish at Stratford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet? Thinking much smaller ones for a more "local" service; and also as a starting point could take pressure off St Pancras as the new protocols begin? Has it ever been considered in the past?

A Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille local service, even if just a few trains a day each way, is something I'd welcome wholeheartedly.

 

[zwk500]

Milan would be very interesting, especially after the new route is complete. And with a a serious food offering onboard, I'll happily do it. If South of France worked, I can see Milan working.

South of France worked pre-Brexit, and hasn't returned since COVID. AIUI the Avignon Eurostar market was largely driven by Brits with homes in the south of France (either as immigrants or seasonal visitors), with travel being either the owners travelling between the UK and France or people going to visit them. Milan would be a totally different market.

I think Milan would be a very hot contender if the security check-in was not required. With it adding an hour to the effective journey time, I can't see the train being too competitive against the range of flights from the UK to northern Italy.

A Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille local service, even if just a few trains a day each way, is something I'd welcome wholeheartedly.

But are there enough people to fill a full-length train at a useful enough frequency to drive that market, especially since Brexit?

Sorry if this is a repeat question, but do we the great unwashed masses know what criteria the ORR are using to decide who gets depot space at TMI?

Yes, all the relevant documents are published on the ORR Website

A page on the ORR website called 'Capacity at Temple Mills International Depot' has a lot of it: https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-consultations/capacity-temple-mills-international-depot,
It also has all correspondence regarding TMI at it's active Depot Access Page: https://www.orr.gov.uk/rail-guidanc...ss/station-depot/depot-applications-decisions
And has published a 40-page document detailing it's consideration process for Depot Access Applications: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...r-the-approval-of-depot-access-agreements.pdf

The precise weighting of each criterion in the Temple Mills Case may not (yet) have been published as the ORR do state they consider each situation on it's own basis when different requirements are in conflict.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Yes, all the relevant documents are published on the ORR Website

A page on the ORR website called 'Capacity at Temple Mills International Depot' has a lot of it: https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-consultations/capacity-temple-mills-international-depot,
It also has all correspondence regarding TMI at it's active Depot Access Page: https://www.orr.gov.uk/rail-guidanc...ss/station-depot/depot-applications-decisions
And has published a 40-page document detailing it's consideration process for Depot Access Applications: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...r-the-approval-of-depot-access-agreements.pdf

The precise weighting of each criterion in the Temple Mills Case may not (yet) have been published as the ORR do state they consider each situation on it's own basis when different requirements are in conflict.

Thank you kindly, some excellent bedtime reading.

 

[Trainbike46]

South of France worked pre-Brexit, and hasn't returned since COVID. AIUI the Avignon Eurostar market was largely driven by Brits with homes in the south of France (either as immigrants or seasonal visitors), with travel being either the owners travelling between the UK and France or people going to visit them. Milan would be a totally different market.

I think Milan would be a very hot contender if the security check-in was not required. With it adding an hour to the effective journey time, I can't see the train being too competitive against the range of flights from the UK to northern Italy.

I think Milan is only going to happen if an operator (e.g. Trenitalia) who needs to get trains between Milan and London for maintenance purposes were to start running trains from the UK. Even then, I suspect the main markets will be London-MLV and Milan-MLV, both for Disneyland traffic and connections, with the UK-Italy market a nice extra.

A Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille local service, even if just a few trains a day each way, is something I'd welcome wholeheartedly.

I agree it would be lovely, but I can't see it happening without subsidy, and I don't see either the UK or France subsidising it.

If you were to run something like this, it would likely continue to St Pancras and serve that as well, you need to run it until there anyway, so why not?

 

[NCT]

How many calls does Calais-Frethum get?

 

[Trainbike46]

How many calls does Calais-Frethum get?

From trains to/from the UK currently? None

 

[30907]

From trains to/from the UK currently? None

And historically: a few (IIRC mainly aimed at travel to/from London rather than to/from Pas de Calais).

 

[zwk500]

And historically: a few (IIRC mainly aimed at travel to/from London rather than to/from Pas de Calais).

The June 2013 timetable is viewable online: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/19586318/view-timetable-eurostar

Calais receives stops only in the Brussels Services, with Calais, Ashford and Ebbsfleet having very sporadic services throughout the day. That pattern presumably changed over time - I have a memory of going to Paris by train in the mid-2000's and am fairly sure we stopped at Frethun (having boarded at Ashford late-morning)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

I think Milan is only going to happen if an operator (e.g. Trenitalia) who needs to get trains between Milan and London for maintenance purposes were to start running trains from the UK. Even then, I suspect the main markets will be London-MLV and Milan-MLV, both for Disneyland traffic and connections, with the UK-Italy market a nice extra.

That would be an extremely niche maintenance need!

London-Milan has c.14 flights tomorrow (Monday) using a mix of A319/A320/B737s spaced at roughly hourly departures, with some tighter groupings, https://uk.flightaware.com/live/findflight?origin=ZLN&destination=LIMC
If we take 150 as the average passenger capacity, that's a current approximate market of 2k seats being offered per day, one-way. That's going to make it very hard to sustain the train at a level where the overheads for the terminals etc are amortised sufficiently at a competitive fare, but not impossible.