Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[SynthD]

The 1986 treaty was two-party, with the French. In 1993 Belgium were part of a tripartite agreement. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1405/made may be what you’re looking for.

 

[Mikey C]

With new Eurostar destinations, it does feel that the security and passport issues at the stations will always be more of a issue to overcome than actually operating the services.

I was on the first Eurostar out of Amsterdam this morning, and was pretty unimpressed at the chaos there at the new facility. Told to arrive at 5:50 for the 6:40 service, got there at 5:45 to join a large crowd outside the checkin area, as it hadn't opened. The notices said that checkin would start at 5:40, though this eventually didn't happen until nearly 6.

Then inside, a full security check of all luggage and all passengers, with just 2 lines operating. It was just like being at an airport, and took forever, resulting in the train leaving 15 minutes late. The excuse given for the delay was a technical issue, but unless there were technical issues with the terminal itself, that was nonsense. I boarded the train after the departure time, and there were plenty of people behind me.

 

[Trainbike46]

With new Eurostar destinations, it does feel that the security and passport issues at the stations will always be more of a issue to overcome than actually operating the services.

I was on the first Eurostar out of Amsterdam this morning, and was pretty unimpressed at the chaos there at the new facility. Told to arrive at 5:50 for the 6:40 service, got there at 5:45 to join a large crowd outside the checkin area, as it hadn't opened. The notices said that checkin would start at 5:40, though this eventually didn't happen until nearly 6.

Then inside, a full security check of all luggage and all passengers, with just 2 lines operating. It was just like being at an airport, and took forever, resulting in the train leaving 15 minutes late. The excuse given for the delay was a technical issue, but unless there were technical issues with the terminal itself, that was nonsense. I boarded the train after the departure time, and there were plenty of people behind me.

This may be related to the refusal by the Dutch government to increase the border force / marechaussee staffing at Amsterdam. This is despite Eurostar paying for the Marechaussee, and despite Eurostar and NS requesting the extra staffing in line with the agreement between Eurostar/NS and the government.

This was reported to be expected to cause delays of up to thirty minutes, depending on passenger numbers. Sounds like you experienced it in practice, unfortunately

 

[Farnborough]

Plus Antwerp passengers could transfer in Brussels without too much faff anyway.

This.

I know that World Domination is the aim, but there are a finite number of paths between London and Lille - and having a reliable service should be the aim, rather than extending services across Europe.

IMVHO, it would be better for Eurostar to focus on its knitting, the London to Paris and Brussels services, and let passengers change for the extensive network of intra-Schengen services.

 

[Trainbike46]

This.

I know that World Domination is the aim, but there are a finite number of paths between London and Lille - and having a reliable service should be the aim, rather than extending services across Europe.

IMVHO, it would be better for Eurostar to focus on its knitting, the London to Paris and Brussels services, and let passengers change for the extensive network of intra-Schengen services.

I disagree - London Airports - The Netherlands Airports (Schiphol, Rotterdam, and Eindhoven) is one of the biggest air flows in Europe. Eurostar should compete with that, and that requires direct services to the Netherlands.

In any case, there are 4/5 London-Lille paths per hour, so you could do half-hourly Paris services + hourly Brussels services (extending to Amsterdam and Frankfurt alternatingly) + 1 or 2 extra services (MLV, Geneva, etc.) per hour.

 

[zwk500]

I know that World Domination is the aim, but there are a finite number of paths between London and Lille - and having a reliable service should be the aim, rather than extending services across Europe.

IMVHO, it would be better for Eurostar to focus on its knitting, the London to Paris and Brussels services, and let passengers change for the extensive network of intra-Schengen seservices.

The thing is, Eurostar has basically 'won' on London to Brussels, and can be more effective by reaching beyond. It's a big hub but in the scheme of European cities not *that* big as a city. Cologne, Frankfurt and Amsterdam offer significant enhancements to the connectivity.

I'd argue that Eurostar should focus less on any extension on the French side as the Paris side is still facing stiff competition from air. But extensions beyond Brussels are the natural next step for Eurostar.

 

[Bald Rick]

The thing is, Eurostar has basically 'won' on London to Brussels, and can be more effective by reaching beyond. It's a big hub but in the scheme of European cities not *that* big as a city. Cologne, Frankfurt and Amsterdam offer significant enhancements to the connectivity.

I'd argue that Eurostar should focus less on any extension on the French side as the Paris side is still facing stiff competition from air. But extensions beyond Brussels are the natural next step for Eurostar.

Exactly this, except for Geneva. Big market to chase there.

 

[Zomboid]

Amsterdam they should definitely be serving. The Dusseldorf/ Koln area is probably worthwhile as well.
Beyond that might be too far.

France is a bit low density, the next big cities are a long way away.

 

[NCT]

Amsterdam is already in the rail/air competitive zone. Brussels really needs to be half-hourly with hourly extensions to Amsterdam.

 

[Farnborough]

Exactly this, except for Geneva. Big market to chase there.

St Pancras to Geneva (via Lille and Lyon): 7 1/2 hours
Heathrow to Geneva (direct): 1 1/2 hours

Even allowing for the changes in Lille, that's still going to be 6 1/2 hours for a direct train... I'm still going to take the plane.

 

[Trainbike46]

St Pancras to Geneva (via Lille and Lyon): 7 1/2 hours
Heathrow to Geneva (direct): 1 1/2 hours

Even allowing for the changes in Lille, that's still going to be 6 1/2 hours for a direct train... I'm still going to take the plane.

You might choose to fly, but the market to Geneva is big enough that even a relatively modest percentage of people switching to rail is enough to fill 1-2 trains per day. Bald Rick did the maths earlier in this thread.

Your earlier post argued for axing the Amsterdam/Rotterdam services (as you said Eurostar should only do Paris and Brussels), despite it being only 3h16m/4h04m to Rotterdam/Amsterdam respectively, and the passenger numbers being high and increasing quickly. I would say there is a strong case for expanding the Eurostar service to Amsterdam further, beyond the already planned expansion to 4tpd in September and 5tpd in December.

Amsterdam is already in the rail/air competitive zone. Brussels really needs to be half-hourly with hourly extensions to Amsterdam.

Agreed that would be a very good long-term aim, but that does require more stock and likely the start of Koln/Frankfurt services, as the demand from Brussels isn't large enough to sustain an half-hourly service by itself.

 

[zwk500]

I would say there is a strong case for expanding the Eurostar service to Amsterdam further, beyond the already planned expansion to 4tpd in September and 5tpd in December.

Agreed.

Agreed that would be a very good long-term aim, but that does require more stock and likely the start of Koln/Frankfurt services, as the demand from Brussels isn't large enough to sustain an half-hourly service by itself.

I don't think 2tph from Brussels is required any time soon, it's only 1tp2h today, although it should certainly factor into Eurostars next stock procurement. 2tph to Brussels would probably put too much pressure on Temple Mills as well.

In the immediate future, 1tph to Brussels with 1tp2h alternating between Cologne and Amsterdam seems a sensible level to aim for. The 2nd tph to Brussels could then be introduced later potentially as a way to reopen one or both of the Kent stops.

 

[Zomboid]

I wonder if a Kodama style service would attract enough custom to be worth running, calling at every station (except possibly Stratford) along the route.

I suspect it might struggle to justify opening the border controls at Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais.

 

[Bald Rick]

St Pancras to Geneva (via Lille and Lyon): 7 1/2 hours
Heathrow to Geneva (direct): 1 1/2 hours

Even allowing for the changes in Lille, that's still going to be 6 1/2 hours for a direct train... I'm still going to take the plane.

It is:
2h18 St Pancras to Paris Nord non-stop
3h11 Paris Lyon to Geneva C with two stops (neither of which Eurostar will call at)
2h29 longer (approx) from London via LGV Interconnection to the LGV Sud Est than it is from Paris Gare de Lyon, assuming one stop at either CDG or MLV.

Therefore, removing the two stops between Paris and Geneva (Bellegarde and Bourg en Bresse) from the London - Geneva train will result in an end to end time of 5h30, assuming one stop (most likely MLV, possibly CDG or Lille Europe).

Accepting that many will still take the plane, there were also many who were happy to take the Eurostar to Moutiers / Bourg St Maurice on the ski trains, and that was longer; similarly the Avignon / Marseille train.

Also, plenty of people take the train London - Glasgow (4h30 typical time), and more people fly London - Geneva than London - Glasgow. There is potential for a rail market share of around 20-30%, IMHO. Add in some MLV traffic and that’s enough for 3-4 trains each way a day.

 

[Trainbike46]

In the immediate future, 1tph to Brussels with 1tp2h alternating between Cologne and Amsterdam seems a sensible level to aim for. The 2nd tph to Brussels could then be introduced later potentially as a way to reopen one or both of the Kent stops.

Agreed.

 

[popeter45]

I wonder if a Kodama style service would attract enough custom to be worth running, calling at every station (except possibly Stratford) along the route.

I suspect it might struggle to justify opening the border controls at Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais.

if you could get away with somthing as short as a tunnel rated 395 i always wondered if a comuter service to Calais would have worked that stopped at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford, maybe with a agreement between France/UK to enable such cross boarder work

 

[Krokodil]

Amsterdam is already in the rail/air competitive zone. Brussels really needs to be half-hourly with hourly extensions to Amsterdam.

Steady on, we've not even got hourly Brussels yet!

 

[Mikey C]

This may be related to the refusal by the Dutch government to increase the border force / marechaussee staffing at Amsterdam. This is despite Eurostar paying for the Marechaussee, and despite Eurostar and NS requesting the extra staffing in line with the agreement between Eurostar/NS and the government.

This was reported to be expected to cause delays of up to thirty minutes, depending on passenger numbers. Sounds like you experienced it in practice, unfortunately

If the border/security staff has started earlier, then a lot of the issues would have been avoided. Not opening check in until almost 6am for a 6:40 train was ridiculous, and makes a mockery of the gates closing 30 minutes before departure instruction.

 

[RT4038]

If the border/security staff has started earlier, then a lot of the issues would have been avoided. Not opening check in until almost 6am for a 6:40 train was ridiculous, and makes a mockery of the gates closing 30 minutes before departure instruction.

Which may not be in the control of E* of course....

 

[The exile]

Is there any precedent for a train carrying domestic passengers to then carry international passengers the same day?

Was it not possible at one time to board Brussels (and Paris?) bound Eurostars at Lille?

 

[D6130]

Was it not possible at one time to board Brussels (and Paris?) bound Eurostars at Lille?

Only the Brussels trains, IIRC.

 

[Trainbike46]

If the border/security staff has started earlier, then a lot of the issues would have been avoided. Not opening check in until almost 6am for a 6:40 train was ridiculous, and makes a mockery of the gates closing 30 minutes before departure instruction.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Dutch government is willing to entertain even that. The minister who made this decision, the minister for asylum and migration, was both widely regarded as utterly incompetent, and clearly has a dislike for railways.

The Dutch government charges Eurostar for the border force present, but does NOT charge airports or airlines for the border force, to give you an idea of the attitude of the Dutch government to Eurostar. Similarly, the London-bound trains started years later than planned because the Dutch government wasn't willing to make an agreement with the UK (and Belgium and France) to allow UK border force to do checks in the Netherlands. It is clear that the Eurostar service is operating despite Dutch government interference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

Was it not possible at one time to board Brussels (and Paris?) bound Eurostars at Lille?

It is still possible to buy tickets for, and board, Brussels and Amsterdam-bound Eurostars at Lille

 

[D6130]

Unfortunately, I don't think the Dutch government is willing to entertain even that. The minister who made this decision, the minister for asylum and migration, was both widely regarded as utterly incompetent, and clearly has a dislike for railways.

The Dutch government charges Eurostar for the border force present, but does NOT charge airports or airlines for the border force, to give you an idea of the attitude of the Dutch government to Eurostar. Similarly, the London-bound trains started years later than planned because the Dutch government wasn't willing to make an agreement with the UK (and Belgium and France) to allow UK border force to do checks in the Netherlands. It is clear that the Eurostar service is operating despite Dutch government interference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==


It is still possible to buy tickets for, and board, Brussels and Amsterdam-bound Eurostars at Lille

I don't know whether it is still the case post-Covid, but at one time there was a considerable commuter traffic between Lille and Brussels. Property prices/rents are/were much cheaper in Lille than in Greater Brussels and a fair number of lower-graded EU bureaucrats commuted from there on a daily basis.

 

[HSTEd]

Was it not possible at one time to board Brussels (and Paris?) bound Eurostars at Lille?

It was yes, the so called "Lille Loophole".

As I never did it, I don't know if those people were able to bypass the security check or merely the passport check.
Obviously if they go through security they can still be considered "secure" from that perspective.

The issue would be if it was simply open boarding on the domestic service.

 

[NCT]

Unfortunately, I don't think the Dutch government is willing to entertain even that. The minister who made this decision, the minister for asylum and migration, was both widely regarded as utterly incompetent, and clearly has a dislike for railways.

The Dutch government charges Eurostar for the border force present, but does NOT charge airports or airlines for the border force, to give you an idea of the attitude of the Dutch government to Eurostar. Similarly, the London-bound trains started years later than planned because the Dutch government wasn't willing to make an agreement with the UK (and Belgium and France) to allow UK border force to do checks in the Netherlands. It is clear that the Eurostar service is operating despite Dutch government interference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==


It is still possible to buy tickets for, and board, Brussels and Amsterdam-bound Eurostars at Lille

Do we know the security / border staffing level obligation that Eurostar has paid for? I.e. is the late start a function of Eurostar not paying for an earlier shift start or Dutch government not honouring its contractual obligation?

If the former - I wonder if once Eurostar ramps up to (even just) 1tp2h, there'll be a consistent work load for terminal and border staff that shifts become more efficient, so that Eurostar can pay for better staffing levels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

It was yes, the so called "Lille Loophole".

As I never did it, I don't know if those people were able to bypass the security check or merely the passport check.
Obviously if they go through security they can still be considered "secure" from that perspective.

The issue would be if it was simply open boarding on the domestic service.

Unless things have changed from my last observation, the Brussels Midi stop of the London to Amsterdam service is made in an open environment. While the Brussels - Amsterdam leg is not bookable on that service, there's nothing stopping somebody from boarding that train (unless all doors are staffed and monitored).

 

[Mikey C]

Which may not be in the control of E* of course....

Of course, but it's pointless planning extensions across Europe unless the governments of the target countries are on board as well.

I can see why they might be reluctant, as you're having to effectively create and staff a mini airport terminal.

 

[RT4038]

Do we know the security / border staffing level obligation that Eurostar has paid for? I.e. is the late start a function of Eurostar not paying for an earlier shift start or Dutch government not honouring its contractual obligation?

Perhaps the problem is E* scheduling an 06h40 departure when they know the border and/or security staff are not starting until 06h00?

 

[Cach17]

if you could get away with somthing as short as a tunnel rated 395 i always wondered if a comuter service to Calais would have worked that stopped at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford, maybe with a agreement between France/UK to enable such cross boarder work

I would wholeheartedly welcome a resurrection of the Transmanche Metro idea from years back... https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/could-a-transmanche-metro-between-101800/

 

[Trainbike46]

It was yes, the so called "Lille Loophole".

As I never did it, I don't know if those people were able to bypass the security check or merely the passport check.
Obviously if they go through security they can still be considered "secure" from that perspective.

The issue would be if it was simply open boarding on the domestic service.

The Lille loophole was only a thing in the London-bound direction, not in the Brussels-bound direction which is what the post you're referring to was talking about.

Lille to Brussels, Rotterdam, and Amsterdam tickets are available, but in that direction only.

Do we know the security / border staffing level obligation that Eurostar has paid for? I.e. is the late start a function of Eurostar not paying for an earlier shift start or Dutch government not honouring its contractual obligation?

If the former - I wonder if once Eurostar ramps up to (even just) 1tp2h, there'll be a consistent work load for terminal and border staff that shifts become more efficient, so that Eurostar can pay for better staffing levels.

My understanding is that Eurostar pays for the number of border officials that actually work, but Eurostar requested an increase in line with the agreement between NS/Eurostar and the Dutch government, and the Dutch government refused the requested increase, despite the framework agreement not actually allowing for that. Any claims that there are insufficient border staff is clearly nonsense given the current other duties the border staff is being deployed on.

Perhaps the problem is E* scheduling an 06h40 departure when they know the border and/or security staff are not starting until 06h00?

The late start is likely a separate issue, normally the security and border open 90 minutes before departure, at least in Rotterdam.

 

[cle]

Amsterdam they should definitely be serving. The Dusseldorf/ Koln area is probably worthwhile as well.
Beyond that might be too far.

France is a bit low density, the next big cities are a long way away.

The Lyon/Avignon/Aix/Marseille route was the only one that thread enough markets to be viable.
Bordeaux is lovely, and on a new HSR - but largely out by itself and quite seasonal (more so than SoF), with less business demand than Lyon, or Marseille for example.

Amsterdam is already in the rail/air competitive zone. Brussels really needs to be half-hourly with hourly extensions to Amsterdam.

Frequency matters for Amsterdam - and distribution. You can fly there from all 5 London airports - plus other places a little further out like Southampton, Birmingham and East Midlands. So getting people to a single station in Central London isn't always easy.
Amsterdam is really the broader UK's main hub airport - KLM and Emirates its most inclusive airlines! Easyjet is huge to AMS too.

It is:
2h18 St Pancras to Paris Nord non-stop
3h11 Paris Lyon to Geneva C with two stops (neither of which Eurostar will call at)
2h29 longer (approx) from London via LGV Interconnection to the LGV Sud Est than it is from Paris Gare de Lyon, assuming one stop at either CDG or MLV.

Therefore, removing the two stops between Paris and Geneva (Bellegarde and Bourg en Bresse) from the London - Geneva train will result in an end to end time of 5h30, assuming one stop (most likely MLV, possibly CDG or Lille Europe).

Accepting that many will still take the plane, there were also many who were happy to take the Eurostar to Moutiers / Bourg St Maurice on the ski trains, and that was longer; similarly the Avignon / Marseille train.

Also, plenty of people take the train London - Glasgow (4h30 typical time), and more people fly London - Geneva than London - Glasgow. There is potential for a rail market share of around 20-30%, IMHO. Add in some MLV traffic and that’s enough for 3-4 trains each way a day.

This is quite crayon-y for you! Ha. I do agree re Geneva, I think it needs the MLV call to reinstate that demand (MLV-Geneva is also a new pairing, but CDG-Geneva might also be worth it for some) - it's at the edge of viable journey times, but definitely has a lot of year round demand, nice leisure/business mix, obvious corporate deals to do (P&G) and rail-friendly culture. 5 would be far better.

The issue with Geneva is that many go for 1 day, 2 day business trips, where this is more proportionately train time. Even if you are highly productive the whole way (side note - Eurostar should offer tiny call booths one can book in 15/30min increments for meetings)

The reality of this is that many will go one-way train, and fly back. But with point of sale at both ends, that might even out! I do that with Amsterdam a lot. Paris, no - flying is horrible there, although Orly is getting it's ish together, and the metro is there now. CDG is hell.