Problem with customers

[Liam786]

Hello,

I need some advice.

I work in a shop at a railway station that sells alcohol.

We operate a Challenge 25 policy whereby we have to ask for ID from people who looked under age 25 when buying alcohol and cigarettes.

I'm finding there's a growing trend of people, sometimes obviously teenagers but also even adults, putting the money for the alcohol on the counter and just walking out with the alcohol.

What should I do? Should I report it to my manager or even the police? I fear I may be accused of selling to underage persons even though I do my due diligence in asking for ID.


Regards,

Liam

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Hello,

I need some advice.

I work in a shop at a railway station that sells alcohol.

We operate a Challenge 25 policy whereby we have to ask for ID from people who looked under age 25 when buying alcohol and cigarettes.

I'm finding there's a growing trend of people, sometimes obviously teenagers but also even adults, putting the money for the alcohol on the counter and just walking out with the alcohol.

What should I do? Should I report it to my manager or even the police? I fear I may be accused of selling to underage persons even though I do my due diligence in asking for ID.


Regards,

Liam

In my opinion, you should definitely report it to someone, not sure who but I think they might be technically stealing as you haven’t sold it, they’ve just tried to buy it without you agreeing, but I’m not the most knowledgeable in this area.

 

[Jan Mayen]

If the person was obviously an adult, and left enough cash to cover the goods taken, and the sale rung through the till (with any excess dealt with according to company policy) then I'd mention it to a manager.
If they weren't obviously an adult and/or didn't leave enough, then I'd report it straight away.

 

[jfollows]

Agreed, you should report to your manager on the basis that you can’t do your job properly because of customer behaviour and ask for guidance. Make it their problem, because they are responsible for implementing the policy.

 

[Bluejays]

Put it through the till properly to cover yourself in that regard.

Report each occasion to management. Maybe with a comment on if you thought said customer may have been underage. Basically just give yourself a verifiable trail of reports (text or email would suffice) for every occasion. I feel like that should be enough to cover you against any accusations of being complicit in underage selling.

Don't feel compelled to get into conflict situations with these customers, unless you want to and are comfortable it's safe to do so.

 

[12C]

Put it through the till properly to cover yourself in that regard.

Admittedly I’m no expert on these matters, but would putting it though the till not mean you had accepted the money for the sale, from a legal standpoint?

If goods are taken from a shop, without the consent of the seller agreeing to the sale, they are effectively stolen regardless of whether money was left. I’d personally reject the money and treat it as cash or belongings left by accident, putting it in the safe if you have one. Then report the incident to management and/or police.

 

[AlterEgo]

If goods are taken from a shop, without the consent of the seller agreeing to the sale, they are effectively stolen regardless of whether money was left.

Nope, not if the money has been left, because there is no dishonesty part of the offence committed.

 

[Msq71423]

As a former shop worker, I appreciate why you're concerned because I'm guessing you will be getting reminded very frequently by your employer, that you as a cashier (and not your manager or employer) are personally responsible for the crime if caught selling an under age product, of which the punishment can be a fine into the thousands of pounds.

However the young 'test purchasers' (usually a 13-15 year old child) recruited by local authorities to test retailers ask for ID by attempting to make an underage sale, would not leave cash on the counter and walk out. So in this scenario while you are correct to be concerned it is unlikely you will be caught.

As mentioned above raising the issue with your manager is the correct thing to do and see what they suggest to stop this happening going forwards.

 

[Bluejays]

Admittedly I’m no expert on these matters, but would putting it though the till not mean you had accepted the money for the sale, from a legal standpoint?

If goods are taken from a shop, without the consent of the seller agreeing to the sale, they are effectively stolen regardless of whether money was left. I’d personally reject the money and treat it as cash or belongings left by accident, putting it in the safe if you have one. Then report the incident to management and/or police.

Interesting point. I was thinking more along the lines that putting it through the till protects you from any accusations of pinching the money yourself. Unaccounted for money can have a habit of going walkies.

 

[12C]

Nope, not if the money has been left, because there is no dishonesty part of the offence committed.

So if someone without a driving licence or insurance broke into a car with a for sale sign parked on someones driveway and drove it away, but shoved the market value in cash through the owners letter box would that be ok?

Maybe an extreme example but it is dishonest to take anything if the seller does not consent to the item being sold. If a customer fails to provide ID to buy alcohol, the seller cannot sell the item or accept money for it and would face being fined or worse if caught doing so, so taking the item without consent is stealing, regardless of any money being left on the counter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2024 ==

Interesting point. I was thinking more along the lines that putting it through the till protects you from any accusations of pinching the money yourself. Unaccounted for money can have a habit of going walkies.

I was just thinking that putting it through the till is effectively accepting the sale, which is illegal if no ID shown. Unless CCTV was good quality, the customer could argue the seller didn’t even question it.

To be honest the OP is best asking his employer for their policy on this, rather than on a rail forum.

 

[zero]

So if someone without a driving licence or insurance broke into a car with a for sale sign parked on someones driveway and drove it away, but shoved the market value in cash through the owners letter box would that be ok?

I would be very happy for that to happen to me, and it isn't my problem if the "buyer" is unlicenced or uninsured.

Whereas it is the cashier's problem if the alcoholic drinks buyer is underage.

 

[PupCuff]

If this were me, I'd be reporting the theft of the item to the police via a non-emergency number and asking my manager how I should account for monies which have been found where no transaction had taken place.

It's no water off my back as an employee if someone walks out with my employers stock and leaves random money in my shop as long as I do the right thing and don't pocket the money

It's up to the police if they then choose to prosecute the person.

 

[12C]

I would be very happy for that to happen to me, and it isn't my problem if the "buyer" is unlicenced or uninsured.

Whereas it is the cashier's problem if the alcoholic drinks buyer is underage.

It would be if the paperwork hadn’t been sorted out properly, the car flew though several speed cameras and crashed into another car while still being in your name.

Maybe not the best example but the consequences of taking something illegally can also have repercussions for the other party, as they would for the seller if someone underage illegally bought alcohol.

 

[AlterEgo]

So if someone without a driving licence or insurance broke into a car with a for sale sign parked on someones driveway and drove it away, but shoved the market value in cash through the owners letter box would that be ok?

No, but not because it would be necessarily theft. It would be firstly criminal damage, and then “taking without owner’s consent” - a specific offence relating to vehicles. They would also be driving unlicensed and uninsured. That’s not the same as leaving the correct money for a can of Coke on the counter and leaving with it, without it going through the till.

If a customer fails to provide ID to buy alcohol, the seller cannot sell the item or accept money for it and would face being fined or worse if caught doing so, so taking the item without consent is stealing, regardless of any money being left on the counter.

It’s not a theft. Your rationale does not work. That is not what makes something a theft.

 

[12C]

No, but not because it would be necessarily theft. It would be firstly criminal damage, and then “taking without owner’s consent” - a specific offence relating to vehicles. They would also be driving unlicensed and uninsured. That’s not the same as leaving the correct money for a can of Coke on the counter and leaving with it, without it going through the till.


It’s not a theft. Your rationale does not work. That is not what makes something a theft.

I’m sure anything taken without the owners consent is theft, regardless of any unwanted payment being left. In this case, the owner of the goods, I.e. the shop owner, would (hopefully) never consent to selling alcohol to anyone underage, so for the person to take the item without the owners consent would be stealing.

 

[GusB]

What should I do? Should I report it to my manager or even the police? I fear I may be accused of selling to underage persons even though I do my due diligence in asking for ID.

You should be reporting this to your manager; they bear the responsibility for what happens in their shop and they need to be aware of what's going on. Do you work for a shop that's owned by a national organisation, a franchised store trading under a national brand that's locally managed, or an independent trader? If you don't feel comfortable answering that question, that's fair enough.

You should be refusing a sale if you suspect that the persons trying to purchase alcohol are under age, or if you suspect that adults are buying alcohol on behalf of people who are under age; however, if they're simply taking the booze and leaving the money it doesn't give you the opportunity to refuse the sale and I don't see why you should get into trouble for "selling" it. You can't control the stuff leaving the shop and it's ultimately the responsibility of the management to put measures in place to ensure that this doesn't happen.

The police should also be made aware but it's probably quite far down on the list of their priorities; unless you're being left in charge of the shop it should be down to your boss to deal with them. I'd hope that there would be CCTV footage that would back you up.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m sure anything taken without the owners consent is theft, regardless of any unwanted payment being left.

You can be sure, but you would be wrong as the briefest check even of Wikipedia would tell you.

No, it is not the case that “anything taken without the owner’s consent is theft”, there are numerous parts to the offence that need be proven. As I have already stated, correctly.

 

[12C]

You can be sure, but you would be wrong as the briefest check even of Wikipedia would tell you.

No, it is not the case that “anything taken without the owner’s consent is theft”, there are numerous parts to the offence that need be proven. As I have already stated, correctly.

Out of interest I’ve just briefly checked the Wikipedia definition of theft and it states:

Theft is the act of taking another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Theft - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In this case the rightful owner would be the shop proprietor and they presumably would not consent or give permission to sell alcohol to anyone underage.

 

[zero]

Out of interest I’ve just briefly checked the Wikipedia definition of theft and it states:

Theft - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In this case the rightful owner would be the shop proprietor and they presumably would not consent or give permission to sell alcohol to anyone underage.

The citations for that statement relate to the USA.

You may wish to scroll down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft#United_Kingdom

 

[Bantamzen]

Hello,

I need some advice.

I work in a shop at a railway station that sells alcohol.

We operate a Challenge 25 policy whereby we have to ask for ID from people who looked under age 25 when buying alcohol and cigarettes.

I'm finding there's a growing trend of people, sometimes obviously teenagers but also even adults, putting the money for the alcohol on the counter and just walking out with the alcohol.

What should I do? Should I report it to my manager or even the police? I fear I may be accused of selling to underage persons even though I do my due diligence in asking for ID.


Regards,

Liam

Whatever you do don't take Wikipedia references as accurate!

Personally in the first instance I would seek advice from your manager, and ask what their policy is on this. As I understand it Challenge 25 is not a legal requirement anyway (apart from in Scotland), just something the trade brought in to effectively cover themselves from risking selling alcohol to under 18's. What is a legal requirement is that retailers have a proof of age policy, so this is what you need to clarify with your employer. So ask if you should be treating this as a breach of policy but accepting the sale, or as theft (I find it hard to believe the latter would apply if I'm honest).

In the meantime I would as others have suggested simply put the sale through to cover yourself, and report each instance to your manager.

 

[railfan99]

How do you ring up the sale if you don't know exactly what they've taken?

Wouldn't you normally need a barcode? This aids the stocktake, plus knowing how many of brand X are left in stock.

 

[E27007]

I think it is correct, the minimum age to purchase alcohol is 18 years, therefore the situation you describe, an under-age individual depositing the money on the counter and leaving, is commiting the real offence and the party the police would seek to apprehend and report for a crime..

 

[randyrippley]

OP
The important point here is that it's your management teams problem as to how this is dealt with, not yours.
They have the responsibility for the shop, not you.
Report it, request direction on what to do. Make a note of when you did this, so you have a record. If necessary make the report in writing.
Key thing is to protect your backside.

As for putting the money through the till, can you actually do that without either being able to scan the taken goods, or otherwise ID them?

 

[Busaholic]

Be under no illusion that if Trading Standards performed what might be called a 'sting' operation, your shop, its management, the cashier on duty, etc would be in trouble, almost certainly leading to the shop's loss of alcohol licence, or threat of. Actually, the cashier would probably not face further sanctions should they have done their best to challenge the 'customer.'

Doing nothing should be removed from the list of options, common though it has become in British mentality.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

OP
The important point here is that it's your management teams problem as to how this is dealt with, not yours.
They have the responsibility for the shop, not you.
Report it, request direction on what to do. Make a note of when you did this, so you have a record. If necessary make the report in writing.
Key thing is to protect your backside.

As for putting the money through the till, can you actually do that without either being able to scan the taken goods, or otherwise ID them?

This +1

 

[AlterEgo]

Out of interest I’ve just briefly checked the Wikipedia definition of theft and it states:

Theft - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In this case the rightful owner would be the shop proprietor and they presumably would not consent or give permission to sell alcohol to anyone underage.

Perhaps I was wrong to say “the briefest check”. It will help you to scroll down the page to see what the law is in England and Wales.

As you can see, it says the following:

1.-(1) A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.

As you can see, as I repeat again, it is not the case that simply taking an item without consent constitutes theft.m, which was your assertion. That’s wrong. It must be done dishonestly, and the test of that is that the person who has taken the property must have done so with a guilty mind.

If I go into a shop, see a can of Coke is advertised to be £1, leave £1 on the counter for the clerk and leave with the can, I have not committed a theft.

 

[Busaholic]

Perhaps I was wrong to say “the briefest check”. It will help you to scroll down the page to see what the law is in England and Wales.

As you can see, it says the following:

1.-(1) A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.

As you can see, as I repeat again, it is not the case that simply taking an item without consent constitutes theft.m, which was your assertion. That’s wrong. It must be done dishonestly, and the test of that is that the person who has taken the property must have done so with a guilty mind.

If I go into a shop, see a can of Coke is advertised to be £1, leave £1 on the counter for the clerk and leave with the can, I have not committed a theft.

With respect, the problem the OP alludes to has nothing to do with theft, it's to do with serving or selling alcohol to potentially underage customers. The underage customer hasn't committed a specific offence by buying or attempting to buy alcohol, anymore than an under 16 has by having sex with an over 16 year old.

Now let's say theft is out of the equation and get focussed on the real concern.

 

[simonw]

Hello,

I need some advice.

I work in a shop at a railway station that sells alcohol.

We operate a Challenge 25 policy whereby we have to ask for ID from people who looked under age 25 when buying alcohol and cigarettes.

I'm finding there's a growing trend of people, sometimes obviously teenagers but also even adults, putting the money for the alcohol on the counter and just walking out with the alcohol.

What should I do? Should I report it to my manager or even the police? I fear I may be accused of selling to underage persons even though I do my due diligence in asking for ID.


Regards,

Liam

You should report each case to your manager. You should ask your manager what the firms policy is and follow that.

In law, your shop is displaying goods as an 'offer to treat'. Someone coming in and taking them to the till is offering to buy them. If you accept payment,you have agreed the sale. However you are free to not accept the offer to buy unless you are doing so in a way that is discriminatory.

Someone leaving the money and walking out has made an offer which you could still reject. But we are getting into the reeds.

So to repeat ask your manager what the firms policy is and report all such activity.

 

[Bevan Price]

I suggest there is a flaw in how shops operate. Customers should not have direct access to items (e.g. alcohol) where an age-checking policy operates - they should have to request shop staff the get the item after providing proof of age evidence.
(Of course most supermarkets would object to such a policy as it might reduce sales of alcohol)

 

[WestCoast]

Be under no illusion that if Trading Standards performed what might be called a 'sting' operation, your shop, its management, the cashier on duty, etc would be in trouble, almost certainly leading to the shop's loss of alcohol licence, or threat of. Actually, the cashier would probably not face further sanctions should they have done their best to challenge the 'customer.'

Doing nothing should be removed from the list of options, common though it has become in British mentality.

I have a close family member that’s been in that line of work for some time. The only legally punishable offence in England and Wales is if the shop sells alcohol or other age restricted items to under 18s. Test purchases which the local authority will carry out from time to time will include under 18s trying to buy alcohol in the normal way, they’re not allowed to attempt to deceive or lie about their age if challenged. They’re often super obvious too, buying a single can or whatever. There’s no legal requirement for ID either, but challenge 21/25 is implemented as a voluntary precaution by many shops (in Scotland it is part of the legal framework though). Big shop chains will likely also carry out their own checks with 18-25 year olds to check that IDs are asked for, but that’s not a legal issue at all (In England and Wales).