Pride liveried units

[ValleyLines142]

444019 has recently been updated for SWR
334008 for Scotrail

334006 is the Pride unit for ScotRail.

 

[TheSel]

There are a couple of "trainbows" in SE England though these aren't complete wraps:
Thameslink 700155
Southeastern (I think 395012)

... and East Midlands Railways' 158773, with a 'trainbow' and the legend 'Let's roll with pride' (my pics below)

 

[Pdf]

Looks like the TfL one is made up of the various line colours? Interesting way to do it.

 

[12LDA28C]

When colleagues and passengers don’t get abused etc then perhaps it might not be needed.

Did those against Pride liveries complain about the white ribbon for violence against women or the wraps for remembrance.

I'm curious to know how putting a rainbow on a train prevents railway staff and passengers being abused.

Maybe a more effective approach might be to attempt to engender a more inclusive and tolerant attitude across wider society via education and discussion rather than engaging in lip service and empty gestures.

 

[Pdf]

Maybe a more effective approach might be to attempt to engender a more inclusive and tolerant attitude across wider society via education and discussion

We could do that, but sticking some rainbow decals on a train is much easier.

 

[Turtle]

Personally, I don't know what these railway companies are playing at covering their trains in such a livery, they should stick to trying to run trains, not virtue signalling.

Quite

 

[Nym]

... and East Midlands Railways' 158773, with a 'trainbow' and the legend 'Let's roll with pride' (my pics below)

View attachment 138172

View attachment 138173

Probably one of the most tasteful ones I've seen, and not ridiculously wasteful on materials either.

 

[bramling]

Baseless hyperbole.

It *really* doesn’t look good spending money on this sort of thing when we have an organisation which claims to be severely cash-strapped. Whichever way one looks at it, this is an extravagance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

Really having to dig hard there to find something you can openly be bitter about, eh?

Not really, there’s a reason why the industry has tended to move away from vinyl wrap liveries, and that reason is that they trap water ingress.

 

[jon0844]

I'm curious to know how putting a rainbow on a train prevents railway staff and passengers being abused.

Maybe a more effective approach might be to attempt to engender a more inclusive and tolerant attitude across wider society via education and discussion rather than engaging in lip service and empty gestures.

I would hope that these liveries show that companies are welcoming to everyone, and that abuse won't be tolerated. The bigots seem to be very good at getting all angry and boycotting companies showing a flag, so perhaps that will help keep them off the railway. Sounds like a win.

Sure, you could argue that companies don't need to do any of this, and that they're businesses and hope to have a more successful business as a result of supporting it (which then makes them more money) but if this serves a purpose and makes money, that's a good thing right?

Nobody gets upset about heritage liveries on trains or other promotions (including advertising) put on trains and buses (London buses get skinned all the time). These liveries, like the NHS ones during Covid, are likely to be kept on indefinitely. Certainly local buses to me still carry Pride branding from last year, and there's no reason to remove it.

I'm far more offended by some of the awful colour schemes on some buses!! (not serious).

 

[12LDA28C]

I would hope that these liveries show that companies are welcoming to everyone, and that abuse won't be tolerated.

Rather more important for those companies to actually have policies in place that advocate and promote tolerance, diversity and inclusion than put a vinyl on a train, that was my point. But as someone said upthread, it's easier to put a rainbow on a train.

 

[bramling]

I would hope that these liveries show that companies are welcoming to everyone, and that abuse won't be tolerated. The bigots seem to be very good at getting all angry and boycotting companies showing a flag, so perhaps that will help keep them off the railway. Sounds like a win.

Sure, you could argue that companies don't need to do any of this, and that they're businesses and hope to have a more successful business as a result of supporting it (which then makes them more money) but if this serves a purpose and makes money, that's a good thing right?

Nobody gets upset about heritage liveries on trains or other promotions (including advertising) put on trains and buses (London buses get skinned all the time). These liveries, like the NHS ones during Covid, are likely to be kept on indefinitely. Certainly local buses to me still carry Pride branding from last year, and there's no reason to remove it.

I'm far more offended by some of the awful colour schemes on some buses!! (not serious).

I have to say I’m not a great fan of this sort of thing. Notwithstanding that I tend to feel that pigeon-holing society isn’t really a great thing to be doing, on top of that I can’t help but find many of these special liveries are a bit naff.

I’d certainly include GTR’s NHS units in that - frankly it’s now a reminder of Covid we could do without, especially as the NHS has hardly covered itself in glory in recent years with the backlog of operations, shutters being pulled down at GP surgeries, and some dubious stories of care, or lack of care, received during Covid itself. As it happens I was travelling with a relative a few weeks ago and 700111 came past, he asked why that train was in funny colours and I said that it was for the NHS, and he just sighed. I definitely think the NHS units have run their course now.

 

[GoneSouth]

View attachment 138171

What an abomination! Truly horrible! Fully expecting to be cancelled for that remark but it’s a comment on the livery, nothing more, !

Pride in London/London Pride is on 1 July, so the timing is exactly as it should be. London Trans Pride is also the weekend after, 8 July.

I’m a bit confused, how many pride events do we need. I’d have thought one was plenty, it gets the message across.

As threads like this show time and again, Pride is needed all year round.

It really isn’t, it would be counter productive

 

[Andy Pacer]

Wonder what Class 345 unit was held hostage for the similar above.

"Held hostage" is a strange turn of phrase for this. Can you elaborate?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If a 125 is repainted back to old school BR livery its fine, if TOCs change their uniform at huge cost its ok, but a couple of trains once a year with a pride wrap seems to cause so much controversy, it does seem as there are still some dinosaurs roaming looking for an excuse to use cost as an excuse for their insecurities.

 

[NSEWonderer]

"Held hostage" is a strange turn of phrase for this. Can you elaborate?

We'd have to ask the 345 it's opinion

 

[Nym]

Rather more important for those companies to actually have policies in place that advocate and promote tolerance, diversity and inclusion than put a vinyl on a train, that was my point. But as someone said upthread, it's easier to put a rainbow on a train.

And this of course is the major problem.
Those who shout loudest about inclusivity in the workplace can sometimes be the actually worst places or industries to work in.

 

[43096]

If a 125 is repainted back to old school BR livery its fine, if TOCs change their uniform at huge cost its ok, but a couple of trains once a year with a pride wrap seems to cause so much controversy, it does seem as there are still some dinosaurs roaming looking for an excuse to use cost as an excuse for their insecurities.

Or perhaps people are rather more enlightened and think that ending discrimination and bigotry needs education and discussion rather than the easy option of putting sticky back plastic on the side of a train. It's not like the bigots are going to see a pride liveried train and think "gosh, you know they have a point", is it?

 

[NSEWonderer]

If a 125 is repainted back to old school BR livery its fine, if TOCs change their uniform at huge cost its ok, but a couple of trains once a year with a pride wrap seems to cause so much controversy, it does seem as there are still some dinosaurs roaming looking for an excuse to use cost as an excuse for their insecurities.

But what truly is the pride wrap achieving in changing working conditions for the LGBTQIA+? It's the equivalent to taking the knee in football except it costs X amount more. Both have good intentions sure but both fail to change much if anything at all.

As others have said throwing a wrap or taking a knee is a lazy way of organizations trying to show they're supportive of a cause, when really it needs proper policies and support links to implement and people lap it up quickly without really asking if it changes much.

You mention old BR livery and uniform change. Those do have a cause and do quite literally fulfil these via Enthusiasts for the latter and uniform change for the TOC is a brand and identity reason which is very much needed and not a lightly taken decision.

I'm sure I've broken a rule or two now here.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You mention old BR livery. Those do have a cause and do quite literally fulfil these via Enthusiasts

The better of these liveries (especially Avanti's 390119, my personal favourite pride livery) can also serve this purpose.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The better of these liveries (especially Avanti's 390119, my personal favourite pride livery) can also serve this purpose.

Which is also true on that look indeed. But it depends on is that the liveries intended purpose or cause met.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Which is also true on that look indeed. But it depends on is that the liveries intended purpose or cause met.

A livery's main purpose is to look good, anything else is really secondary.

 

[zwk500]

But what truly is the pride wrap achieving in changing working conditions for the LGBTQIA+? It's the equivalent to taking the knee in football except it costs X amount more. Both have good intentions sure but both fail to change much if anything at all.

Don't underestimate the impact for people who face hostility in their daily lives of seeing a symbol of unity on a public stage. For people it's not aimed at, it does not negatively affect your life in any way unless you choose to get angry about it. But for people who are part of that group, even if no substantive change happens, just seeing those gestures does make a difference to their self confidence.

 

[jon0844]

And this of course is the major problem.
Those who shout loudest about inclusivity in the workplace can sometimes be the actually worst places or industries to work in.

Staff seem to be happy working for TfL, and I would have thought (without any evidence either way) that TfL does not discriminate and is a good employer - albeit under lots of pressure funding wise.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Which is also true on that look indeed. But it depends on is that the liveries intended purpose or cause met.

it causes debate and awareness like this thread clearly has for the LGBTQ+ community. This can only be positive.

 

[zwk500]

Staff seem to be happy working for TfL, and I would have thought (without any evidence either way) that TfL does not discriminate and is a good employer - albeit under lots of pressure funding wise.

There's a massive difference between the institution/organisation not being structurally prejudiced (or having softer ways of it's prejudice manifesting) and employees of that employer facing discrimination in their line of work, from customers or individual staff. TfL making a public expression of support for people facing discrimination is important. Have a scroll through twitter to see lots of examples where expressions of Pride by straight people or from companies are highly praised by members of the LGBTQ+ community.

 

[jon0844]

But what truly is the pride wrap achieving in changing working conditions for the LGBTQIA+? It's the equivalent to taking the knee in football except it costs X amount more. Both have good intentions sure but both fail to change much if anything at all.

As others have said throwing a wrap or taking a knee is a lazy way of organizations trying to show they're supportive of a cause, when really it needs proper policies and support links to implement and people lap it up quickly without really asking if it changes much.

You mention old BR livery and uniform change. Those do have a cause and do quite literally fulfil these via Enthusiasts for the latter and uniform change for the TOC is a brand and identity reason which is very much needed and not a lightly taken decision.

I'm sure I've broken a rule or two now here.

I can't see how you've broken any rules. You have an opinion, but I'd like to say that I disagree with your thinking that you'd change livery for a rail enthusiast, or a uniform for your company branding, but not something like this.

I have no issue with custom liveries, and there was a time in the 90s and early 00s where lots of trains had custom vinyls for all sorts of things - and it's also not up to you or me to decide.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

There's a massive difference between the institution/organisation not being structurally prejudiced (or having softer ways of it's prejudice manifesting) and employees of that employer facing discrimination in their line of work, from customers or individual staff. TfL making a public expression of support for people facing discrimination is important. Have a scroll through twitter to see lots of examples where expressions of Pride by straight people or from companies are highly praised by members of the LGBTQ+ community.

I'm fully supporting what you said, and just adding that in addition to TfL doing this - I feel they are doing more than just 'virtue signalling' as they put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

 

[bramling]

If a 125 is repainted back to old school BR livery its fine, if TOCs change their uniform at huge cost its ok, but a couple of trains once a year with a pride wrap seems to cause so much controversy, it does seem as there are still some dinosaurs roaming looking for an excuse to use cost as an excuse for their insecurities.

A rather odd comment. What’s insecure about disliking a train being dressed up in a promotional scheme, especially as somewhere along the line a cost has been incurred?

 

[Nym]

Staff seem to be happy working for TfL, and I would have thought (without any evidence either way) that TfL does not discriminate and is a good employer - albeit under lots of pressure funding wise.

I can safely say that although TfL likes to beat the equality drum as much as they do, and that does pass down into their organisational structure, a lot of the teams within TfL and particularly LUL are still very much dinosaur, and very much prejudiced.

It's not as bad as other companies in this industry and in this country, but it's definitely not as good as they'd like to be at a corporate level and definitely not as good as they'd like the public to believe they are.

And that's before I get onto the prejudices and in fighting within their own LGBT+ network, where someone can be rejected from it for not fitting their desired stereotypes.

 

[bramling]

it causes debate and awareness like this thread clearly has for the LGBTQ+ community. This can only be positive.

Plenty of members of the “community” find it patronising if not insulting.

 

[jon0844]

Plenty of members of the “community” find it patronising if not insulting.

And of course they can. Nobody from any 'community' is expected to have the exact same views as anyone else. They're not the Borg!