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Preservation...Now!

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GNER 373

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All this recent preservation of many Loco's lately, including one of my favourites the HST prototype (see here) got me thinking how these groups start and how to plan the preservation of the chosen Loco.

I also think that a lot of modern trains once their times is up should have people in place to preserve them, as they are all part of the railway timeline and we deserve at least one of each class to show future generations these wonderful creations.

Firstly anyone got any inside info, part of a current group maybe?

Secondly which current stock would you like to preserve in the future? I'm guessing there wont be a lot of Voyager Preservation Groups out there, from what I see on here, but you never know! :D

Thanks for any responses
 
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Martin nx

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It would be nice to see the Prototype power car preserved and restored to working condition! I remember it in service when I was at OOC as traincrew in the 70's.
 

Peter Mugridge

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The surviving prototype HST power car already is going to restored to working condition.:)
 
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Hydro

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Love 'em or hate 'em, I can see a time where a 66 makes it into the NRM.
 

Yew

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I think sprinters (in general) will make it on to heritage lines as a useful mover, maybe enen some of the more sturdy models being modifed to help with maintainance.

Although its not current, I would love to see the apt-p restored (or the E restored to running, or some hybrid) to do fast railtours. The only problem would be it could be faster up the WCML than the regular service.
 

GNER 373

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How about The Electra Society? Preserve a Class 91 one day.

You read my mind!

Or a previous post that I stated this same thing, kinda put me on this thought trail!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think sprinters (in general) will make it on to heritage lines as a useful mover, maybe enen some of the more sturdy models being modifed to help with maintainance.

Although its not current, I would love to see the apt-p restored (or the E restored to running, or some hybrid) to do fast railtours. The only problem would be it could be faster up the WCML than the regular service.

Agreed on the APT-E/P, would be a great experience!
 

tbtc

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I don't think we will be in a position to scrap much used in passenger service until DDA requirements kick in in 2020 (when you can start on Pacers) - it'd be obscene to preserve passenger trains whilst we cannot meet passenger demand on existing lines at the moment
 

GNER 373

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I don't think we will be in a position to scrap much used in passenger service until DDA requirements kick in in 2020 (when you can start on Pacers) - it'd be obscene to preserve passenger trains whilst we cannot meet passenger demand on existing lines at the moment

Sorry, title is probably to brash, I did mean when they go out of service, perhaps 2020. I meant would there be any point in starting a preservation group say in the next 5 years awaiting a certain class to be out of service before purchasing for preservation! ;)

Still no takers on Voyager Preservation Groups? We could put right what they have wronged! :)
 

12CSVT

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How about The Electra Society? Preserve a Class 91 one day.

91131 is already designated for the National Collection when it is withdrawn. Even if the NRM do change their minds it is probable that the AC loco group would attempt to raise the necessary funds to preserve one. (They already succeeded in raising more than enough funds to preserve 89001 at short notice a few years ago),
 

GNER 373

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91131 is already designated for the National Collection when it is withdrawn. Even if the NRM do change their minds it is probable that the AC loco group would attempt to raise the necessary funds to preserve one. (They already succeeded in raising more than enough funds to preserve 89001 at short notice a few years ago),

Really? I did not know that! Wheres the info on it? I am aware of the AC group, they seem to have a good set up! Thanks for the post :)
 

12CSVT

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Really? I did not know that! Wheres the info on it? I am aware of the AC group, they seem to have a good set up! Thanks for the post :)

They are already custodians classes 81 to 87 (including three 86s - 86101 / 213 / 401) and have various equipment from 87101 including thyristors. More info on www.aclocogroup.co.uk
 

ModernRailways

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I for one, would love to preserve a Voyager, whether people would help me though would be another thing. I mean who would want to preserve a 142 but obviously some people do. I would also preserve a Class 70 for some peculiar reason (be a long time off). But every train deserves at least one preserved so future generations can see how trains have evolved over time. Who knows in the future Electricity might be a thing of the past for trains! :D
 

RobShipway

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One of the Class 139's on the Stourbridge line I think should be preserved come 2020.
 

deltic1989

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I think a pacer would be a good idea in preservation, as an example of how a cash strapped government can solve a transport issue. A voyager would be good to show future generations how NOT to build a train, if you do that alonside a 222 to show what can be learned. for one of each sprinter class not to preserved would be criminal they have formed the mainstay of short and medium distence travel in the UK for years. no doubt in the future when the youngsters of today are grown up they will start on preserving traction we see a ordinary today, like with railway modeling where people model what they remember form their childhood, people tend to preserve the trains they travelled on or spotted in thier youth. If a shed preservation society were to be formed then i moght just put my name down (even though it would feel like cheating on the DPS).
 

Class172

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When there no longer needed I'd like to see at least one of all sprinter classes. Especially 150001/2. Actually I'd like to see the preservation of all classes - even pacers.
 

trains2064

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When there no longer needed I'd like to see at least one of all sprinter classes. Especially 150001/2. Actually I'd like to see the preservation of all classes - even pacers.

Agree 150001/2 are both worth preservation. They are probably the 2 most historic items on the network.
 

ModernRailways

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I think it would be weird to go 'Spotting' and not see a Voyager. But it's a case of love 'em or hate 'em. I don't love them but I think they are all right. What is really wrong with them though? And I think one sprinter from each class will be on preserved lines in the future. I think when were older steam trains won't be as popular, still popular with some due to passing it through family, but overall I think they'll die down and the focus will then turn to current day but 'old' traction. I'm pretty sure there is somebody who likes every train out there, just there aren't many people who'll do it with them. I reckon Northern will keep their 142's to 2020 and onwards as backups, especially as I was reading somewhere that there 'new' units that will be delivered 2016 onwards will be 10 years old when they get them. Anyone photoshop a Voyager in Northern Rail livery please?
 

LE Greys

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I think it would be weird to go 'Spotting' and not see a Voyager. But it's a case of love 'em or hate 'em. I don't love them but I think they are all right. What is really wrong with them though? And I think one sprinter from each class will be on preserved lines in the future. I think when were older steam trains won't be as popular, still popular with some due to passing it through family, but overall I think they'll die down and the focus will then turn to current day but 'old' traction. I'm pretty sure there is somebody who likes every train out there, just there aren't many people who'll do it with them. I reckon Northern will keep their 142's to 2020 and onwards as backups, especially as I was reading somewhere that there 'new' units that will be delivered 2016 onwards will be 10 years old when they get them. Anyone photoshop a Voyager in Northern Rail livery please?

Part of the problem with steam, even though it is bound to be popular thanks to society's general liking for nostalgia (and Thomas the Tank), is that the locos themselves will be increasingly hard to keep running. Then there's the question of how much will be left, or will we be in a Trigger's Broom situation, where frames, wheels, boilers and everything else will have been replaced at some time? It probably won't happen for a while, but the diversity of classes will go down, and the harder ones to maintain will gradually end up on static display only. Then of course there is the loss of skills. The old BR steam men will no longer be with us, and where do you find people to take over? There will be some, but not so many.

It's possible there will be new engines, new-build Standard 3 tanks are one possibility. Being easy to maintain and with no original parts, they could keep going as working engines as long as there is still coal to burn. I hope that that will be when I am long gone.
 

E&W Lucas

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Part of the problem with steam, even though it is bound to be popular thanks to society's general liking for nostalgia (and Thomas the Tank), is that the locos themselves will be increasingly hard to keep running. Then there's the question of how much will be left, or will we be in a Trigger's Broom situation, where frames, wheels, boilers and everything else will have been replaced at some time? It probably won't happen for a while, but the diversity of classes will go down, and the harder ones to maintain will gradually end up on static display only. Then of course there is the loss of skills. The old BR steam men will no longer be with us, and where do you find people to take over? There will be some, but not so many.

It's possible there will be new engines, new-build Standard 3 tanks are one possibility. Being easy to maintain and with no original parts, they could keep going as working engines as long as there is still coal to burn. I hope that that will be when I am long gone.


I think the situation has already moved on from that which you describe, and that the preservation movement is well aware of the challenges it faces, and is often acting accordingly. Commercially, there is simply no choice but to keep steam operational, as it is what the general public wants. 25 years experience tells me that if they see a diesel, they frequently either wait for the next steam service, or ask for their money back. And it is the general public that bring the money in.

Steam locos are very simple beasts by their very nature. Patterns for castings exist for many common components. Extensive rebuilding of boilers is now regularly taking place. They've just steam tested a boiler at Grosmont over the last week that has had a virtually new barrel fabricated in house, as well as extensive firebox renewals. That's after the Black 5 with a 90% new boiler last year. "Trigger's Broom" maybe, but it is already happening.

BR steam men are increasingly a thing of the past. The youngest passed cleaner is about 63 - 65 by now. That's people who managed a couple of years on the things at best. Plenty of lines are running apprenticeship schemes, for young people to learn the traditional skills. Not as many as would be ideal, but a move in the right direction. The boilers I mentioned above - overhauls masterminded by a bloke who's not 30 yet, and who trained in house. There's plenty of young blood wanting to learn the footplate side too, and more is always welcome.

Replicas steam locos are a bit of a red herring. A full rebuild of an existing loco will cost about 500 - 600 k. A new loco is going to be 3 - 4 times that, so that's not going to be the route the railways themselves take, and it is increasingly they who own the locos directly now).

Components for diesel classes are far more complex, and far more difficult to manufacture in house. As the supply of them dries up, it will actually be far harder to keep the more modern types in service. 2nd and 3rd generation varieties will be harder still, due to the increasingly complex electronics involved. With a steam loco, if you can't easily get a particular lubricator, ejector, injector, etc, it is relatively easy to adapt something else to do the job. With an electronically controlled modern diesel, that will be far more difficult. The latter will also not be particularly happy in the typical open storage on a preserved line. The same is true for later MkII and Mk III coaches. Electronics again.

Furthermore, most of the major lines have already got the "full" signs out. Where are you going to keep the modern stuff?
 

IanXC

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Components for diesel classes are far more complex, and far more difficult to manufacture in house. As the supply of them dries up, it will actually be far harder to keep the more modern types in service. 2nd and 3rd generation varieties will be harder still, due to the increasingly complex electronics involved. With a steam loco, if you can't easily get a particular lubricator, ejector, injector, etc, it is relatively easy to adapt something else to do the job. With an electronically controlled modern diesel, that will be far more difficult. The latter will also not be particularly happy in the typical open storage on a preserved line. The same is true for later MkII and Mk III coaches. Electronics again.

Furthermore, most of the major lines have already got the "full" signs out. Where are you going to keep the modern stuff?

2nd and 3rd generation preservation is going to need computer experts as much as steam needs its various skills.

I think the earlier poster who said that some steam stock is inevitably going to move towards static display holds the answer to the capacity question. As some older stock moves to static display, space will be created for newer stock.
 

E&W Lucas

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2nd and 3rd generation preservation is going to need computer experts as much as steam needs its various skills.

I think the earlier poster who said that some steam stock is inevitably going to move towards static display holds the answer to the capacity question. As some older stock moves to static display, space will be created for newer stock.


Not quite. No steam = no business. You are simply not going to see the railways switch to diesel power. To remember steam, you have to be pushing 50; but the NYMR, FR, SVR, etc., are full of young families on a day out. It's the nostalgia of steam that is the selling point.

If you think about the practicalities, you simply cannot manufacture some of the components that a modern loco or unit would need. Circuit boards, etc. A steam loco is just shaped/ riveted / welded platework, castings and pipes.

It's hard for its devotees to conceptualise, but the railways simply may not want to have more modern types of traction on their lines. It's too far removed from what their customers want to ride on/ behind. If any is preserved, it will end up on the smaller, enthusiast dominated outfits. But keeping it operational would be an enormous challenge.
 

ModernRailways

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I think Steam is going to become just a piece of Railway history in the next 30-40 years. Because the younger generations get more excited over 'Modern' locomotives then they do Steam ones. You get the odd child now who wants to see a Steam train and usually their holding a Thomas the Tank flag, also the majority of kids that like Steam engines now have older generations who were 'Rail Enthusiasts' and so it has been passed along like a religion in their family. But now if there's a steam special its usually full of older generations with the odd person like me (15 year old) there, and the same is starting to happen with diesels. I was at Newcastle once and tWCRC Clhere was a ass 47 coming and another spotter that must've took his grandson with him, decided to give the camera to the kid and there was a 91 on the other platform and instead of filming the 47 he filmed the 91, and it was just standing in the station waiting to go along to Heaton. Now I know that won't represent all kids, but it shows how things are changing, but is it for the worse? Although to counter that you could say that it's when they get older that they care more about Steam because they begin to know a bit more about the railways and how the history surrounding them.
 

E&W Lucas

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I think Steam is going to become just a piece of Railway history in the next 30-40 years. Because the younger generations get more excited over 'Modern' locomotives then they do Steam ones. You get the odd child now who wants to see a Steam train and usually their holding a Thomas the Tank flag, also the majority of kids that like Steam engines now have older generations who were 'Rail Enthusiasts' and so it has been passed along like a religion in their family. But now if there's a steam special its usually full of older generations with the odd person like me (15 year old) there, and the same is starting to happen with diesels. I was at Newcastle once and tWCRC Clhere was a ass 47 coming and another spotter that must've took his grandson with him, decided to give the camera to the kid and there was a 91 on the other platform and instead of filming the 47 he filmed the 91, and it was just standing in the station waiting to go along to Heaton. Now I know that won't represent all kids, but it shows how things are changing, but is it for the worse? Although to counter that you could say that it's when they get older that they care more about Steam because they begin to know a bit more about the railways and how the history surrounding them.

But you're still assuming that the market for preservation is enthusiasts. Primarily, it isn't. I can also assure you that non - enthusiast children come to heritage lines in droves, with their non - enthusiast parents. They're fascinated by the locos, and there's always a queue to have a look on the footplate, if we have chance (provided they bring their mummy with them!).
 
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