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Prefix PF appeal services help

Adam Williams

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2 Jan 2018
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Warks
I am very confused here. At first I thought this was a printed ticket, with the booking surname printed on the face of the ticket in the bottom left, but...

The ticket inspector scanned my ticket and railcard and said that the name on the ticket didn't match my railcard
You held an E-Ticket then?

Are you willing to share the E-Ticket with someone via DM, so it can be scanned and the payload checked?

Neither walk-up nor Advance E-Tickets should have a customer name encoded within the barcode. They shouldn't have had a customer name encoded in them for years. It is hard to see how this isn't an accred failure for the retailer.
 
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Haywain

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And we do indeed need to know (or work out) the exact train you were on and the ticket type (and price).
@away_3046 This is very, very important. Which train did you travel on and where was the train (or where were you) when the Penalty Fare Notice was issued?

It appears from RTT that there are four possible trains the OP could have been travelling on - departures from Milton Keynes at (scheduled) 10:38, 11:08, 11:38 and 12:08 - as no other LNR/WMR services were en route between MKC and Birmingham New Street at 12:27. - and only one of these had a next call of New Street at that time, the 10:38 which had been delayed. However, in all of these cases the appropriate single fare for the whole journey would have been the Super Off Peak Single at £14.90. There are therefore solid grounds for a successful third appeal on the simple basis of the incorrect fare being charged. If the OP was on a train later than the 10:38 it is also likely to be the case that the wrong destination station was used for the PFN and the fare calculation.
 

LYradial

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welsh marches
.The only best grounds for appeal that I can see are that the ticket produced was transferable and so was valid.

tickets are transferable by default unless they have been personalised, by applying a certain type of railcard.

can a retailer personalise a ticket to a railcard that they have not seen or have knowledge of.

national rail conditions of travel state that if you are purchasing a ticket restricted in this way it must be made clear at The time of purchase. no hiding behind terms and condition, was it made clear that this ticket was nontranferable
 

Haywain

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The only best grounds for appeal that I can see are that the ticket produced was transferable and so was valid.
The grounds set out above a far easier for the appeal panel to understand and agree to.
 

MarlowDonkey

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4 Apr 2013
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The grounds set out above a far easier for the appeal panel to understand and agree to.
Why is it not simply that the OP had a valid ticket? It had been purchased with a Railcard discount and the relevant Railcard was shown. The ticket inspector's observation that the purchaser and traveller were not the same person is irrelevant surely? If that's not the case then buying tickets on behalf of another person isn't legal when the other person uses them.
 

jumble

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1 Jul 2011
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Why is it not simply that the OP had a valid ticket? It had been purchased with a Railcard discount and the relevant Railcard was shown. The ticket inspector's observation that the purchaser and traveller were not the same person is irrelevant surely? If that's not the case then buying tickets on behalf of another person isn't legal when the other person uses them.
As this is WMT /WMR why is anyone in the slightest bit surprised at this stupidity?
( see many previous threads about their revenue depts behaviour some of which I understand was stopped by DFTO)
Their revenue inspectors need to learn a bit of common sense and not stress out their customers who have paid the correct fare for their journey for no reason except pure greed
 

blimmo

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Why is it not simply that the OP had a valid ticket? It had been purchased with a Railcard discount and the relevant Railcard was shown. The ticket inspector's observation that the purchaser and traveller were not the same person is irrelevant surely? If that's not the case then buying tickets on behalf of another person isn't legal when the other person uses them.
Imo because then OP will have to convince the appeals panel they did have a valid ticket which is a ground they probably don't see all that often. Whereas being overcharged is a much more common ground that one would hope the appeals panel would be familiar with

The argument in favour of presenting the valid ticket appeals ground is that WMR may continue to pursue the OP for the "unpaid fare" even if the penalty element is cancelled. This seems unlikely to happen to me though and OP can always advance this argument later.
 

MarlowDonkey

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Imo because then OP will have to convince the appeals panel they did have a valid ticket which is a ground they probably don't see all that often.
If Revenue Inspectors make it up as they go along, why would Appeals Panels not see the outcomes of these false accusations?

If a valid ticket is claimed to be invalid because the purchaser and traveller aren't the same person, shouldn't the retailer have a say in this and put in a protest to the TOC?
 

AlterEgo

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They have given the reason as "no supporting document", so providing the railcard would be sufficient.
 

Acathater

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Surely you should use all grounds to appeal, not just the "best" grounds?
The more reasons you give them the better the chance of winning the appeal
 
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Neither walk-up nor Advance E-Tickets should have a customer name encoded within the barcode. They shouldn't have had a customer name encoded in them for years. It is hard to see how this isn't an accred failure for the retailer.
I can say without a doubt that a lot still do. I see multiple a day when going down a train scanning where TTK shows a name on there
 

Fawkes Cat

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5,248
Surely you should use all grounds to appeal, not just the "best" grounds?
The more reasons you give them the better the chance of winning the appeal
In my view, this is the right logic.

It's probably worth spelling out that each ground of appeal is an alternative to all the others, as only one needs to be supported for the OP to win the appeal (to put it another way: the penalty fare notice needs to be right enough in every respect: if it falls below an adequate standard on any point, then the whole notice fails). This is the same as stepping the appeals panel through the relevant rules: they should be able to do it for themselves, but just in case they can't you explain it to them.
 

LYradial

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Last edited:

away_3046

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25 Jul 2026
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Milton Keynes
Hello! This is my first time on this forum, but I'm genuinely so distressed and at a loss of what to do, I'm hoping to get some advice here.

I took a train from Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham on 1st July. I'm 18 and have a valid 16-25 railcard with my name and face on it, but I had my older sister buy me a train ticket on my behalf. She booked me a ticket that includes a railcard discount using her Trainpal account, so the booking name was under my sister.

The ticket inspector scanned my ticket and railcard and said that the name on the ticket didn't match my railcard. I explained to her that the ticket was bought for me by my sister using her account, which is why it says her name, but that the railcard was mine. I use a digital wallet and I wasn't planning on buying anything that would require an ID check that day, so I didn't bring my physical ID with me, but I offered to show a picture of my ID that I had on my phone which would also have my face and name on it (but even without the ID, my railcard already has a picture of my literal face??) I started going through my photos to find it, but the inspector stopped me and said that she would only accept a physical ID and told me to "just admit I was lying" and if I was going to tell her the truth now. I explained to her that I wasn't carrying my physical ID but that the railcard had my face on it, she said she didn't care and insisted that I was lying???

I have anxiety and I'm terrible with speaking up or any kind of confrontation. The ticket inspector lady was being, quite frankly, really condescending, to the point where I started to doubt myself and thought maybe I was wrong and that surely she would know the rules better than me (I was told that the payor's name did not need to match the passenger, as long as the passenger holds the qualifying railcard). She said she's going to give me a penalty fare but that I could appeal if I wanted. She asked for my name, birthday and signature for the penalty, so I gave her my name, birthday and signature.

It wasn't until I made an appeal that I learnt she actually put down my sister's name and not my name that I gave her. I am incredibly appalled and distressed because how do I explain I was not made aware of this nor did I consent to this (picture attached below, the blurred out name is my sister's name). I'm told that I cannot speak to Appeal Service in person nor initiate a court case to challenge a penalty fare and that my only option is the online appeal. I feel like I'm not being heard at all, any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Update: Hello! Just wanted to let everyone know that I won my appeal, yay! Thank you to everyone who gave advice and helped, I really appreciate it. :)
 

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