Prefix PF appeal services help

[away_3046]

Hello! This is my first time on this forum, but I'm genuinely so distressed and at a loss of what to do, I'm hoping to get some advice here.

I took a train from Milton Keynes Central to Birmingham on 1st July. I'm 18 and have a valid 16-25 railcard with my name and face on it, but I had my older sister buy me a train ticket on my behalf. She booked me a ticket that includes a railcard discount using her Trainpal account, so the booking name was under my sister.

The ticket inspector scanned my ticket and railcard and said that the name on the ticket didn't match my railcard. I explained to her that the ticket was bought for me by my sister using her account, which is why it says her name, but that the railcard was mine. I use a digital wallet and I wasn't planning on buying anything that would require an ID check that day, so I didn't bring my physical ID with me, but I offered to show a picture of my ID that I had on my phone which would also have my face and name on it (but even without the ID, my railcard already has a picture of my literal face??) I started going through my photos to find it, but the inspector stopped me and said that she would only accept a physical ID and told me to "just admit I was lying" and if I was going to tell her the truth now. I explained to her that I wasn't carrying my physical ID but that the railcard had my face on it, she said she didn't care and insisted that I was lying???

I have anxiety and I'm terrible with speaking up or any kind of confrontation. The ticket inspector lady was being, quite frankly, really condescending, to the point where I started to doubt myself and thought maybe I was wrong and that surely she would know the rules better than me (I was told that the payor's name did not need to match the passenger, as long as the passenger holds the qualifying railcard). She said she's going to give me a penalty fare but that I could appeal if I wanted. She asked for my name, birthday and signature for the penalty, so I gave her my name, birthday and signature.

It wasn't until I made an appeal that I learnt she actually put down my sister's name and not my name that I gave her. I am incredibly appalled and distressed because how do I explain I was not made aware of this nor did I consent to this (picture attached below, the blurred out name is my sister's name). I'm told that I cannot speak to Appeal Service in person nor initiate a court case to challenge a penalty fare and that my only option is the online appeal. I feel like I'm not being heard at all, any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[John R]

I can’t see you did anything wrong. The ticket doesn’t have to be in your name, and the railcard was indeed yours.

A carefully worded appeal should be successful. However we do find that only the third appeal, which is more independently assessed, actually does anything other than decline it.

Others will be along shortly to advise on how to word your final appeal.

 

[Crithylum]

Tickets are transferable. You have done nothing wrong. As they have noted down your sister’s name, she will be liable for any payment or court action. Did you sign any documentation at the time?

Please upload the penalty fare slip you were originally given, hiding personal details. If a name is included, please tell us whether it is yours or your sister’s.

When this is resolved, a complaint (either to the operator or your MP) is likely justified.

It may also be worth completing a subject access request for CCTV footage relating to the incident.

 

[furlong]

Does your sister have the same railcard herself?

Does your signature (which they have) clearly show your own name and not match the name they recorded?

What type of ticket was it - how much was paid for it?
If it was a return ticket was this the outward or return journey?

 

[LYradial]

Unfortunately condition 5-1-1 of the national rail conditions of travel does not permit the transfer of a ticket that is made out in the passengers name, including identifying by a designated railcard.

hopefully someone with more knowledge may be able to assist.

 

[furlong]

Unfortunately condition 5-1-1 of the national rail conditions of travel does not permit the transfer of a ticket that is made out in the passengers name, including identifying by a designated railcard.

hopefully someone with more knowledge may be able to assist.

5.1 is why I'm asking for the ticket details. 5.1.1 is unlikely to be applicable though - generally it covers season tickets. It wouldn't apply to a walk-up fare using a railcard even if the passenger's name is printed on it.

 

[LYradial]

“including Identifying by a designated railcard”. is extracted verbatin from 5-1-1

 

[AlterEgo]

“including Identifying by a designated railcard”. is extracted verbatin from 5-1-1

It still wouldn't normally apply. Tickets can have passenger names on them (for example when you do ToD the purchaser name can be on them) - this does not make the *ticket made out in the passenger's name*. That name appears whether there is a railcard or not.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Well, I don’t normally comment on these posts because I don’t believe I have the necessary expertise, but I’m very confused about this one.

The attachment seems to suggest that the railway believe it is the sister who has been caught travelling, i.e. the person WITHOUT the railcard. If this is the case, why are they pursuing the person WITH the railcard!

Am I missing something?

 

[LYradial]

The appeals panel would seem to think 5-1-1 does apply so where do we go from here

 

[flitwickbeds]

Do tickets purchased with a 16-25 Railcard have to be linked to a specific Railcard, ie entering the Railcard number? As far as I know this is not the case - so I am very confused what the TOC (and Appeals Service) think is incorrect in this case?

 

[AlterEgo]

Do tickets purchased with a 16-25 Railcard have to be linked to a specific Railcard, ie entering the Railcard number? As far as I know this is not the case - so I am very confused what the TOC (and Appeals Service) think is incorrect in this case?

No they don't. This is just standard incompetence from the appeals panel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2026 ==

The appeals panel would seem to think 5-1-1 does apply so where do we go from here

They don't. They are saying railcards aren't transferable. Which is missing the point, as per usual from them. They hate customers and they're stupid.

 

[away_3046]

Does your sister have the same railcard herself?

Does your signature (which they have) clearly show your own name and not match the name they recorded?

What type of ticket was it - how much was paid for it?
If it was a return ticket was this the outward or return journey?

My sister doesn't have a railcard, she just bought the ticket for me. When the inspector asked for my name for the penalty fare, I gave her my name, not my sister's. I also put down my own signature when she asked for one. I'm pretty sure the inspector just put down the name from the ticket (my sister's) instead of mine that I gave her, so that's why Appeal Service thinks I confirmed my sister's identity. I didn't know the inspector put down my sister's name until after I made the appeal because I assumed she would put down the name I told her (which is also the name on my railcard). My sister and I have very different first names so I honestly don't know how one could make such a mistake

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2026 ==

Well, I don’t normally comment on these posts because I don’t believe I have the necessary expertise, but I’m very confused about this one.

The attachment seems to suggest that the railway believe it is the sister who has been caught travelling, i.e. the person WITHOUT the railcard. If this is the case, why are they pursuing the person WITH the railcard!

Am I missing something?

I'm honestly really confused too I made the appeal, which is why they sent that reply to my email, but they seem to think I'm my sister so I don't know whether they're asking me or my sister to pay. The inspector also put down the wrong name on the penalty fare, so I also don't know if that fare is addressed to me or my sister who wasn't travelling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2026 ==

Does your sister have the same railcard herself?

Does your signature (which they have) clearly show your own name and not match the name they recorded?

What type of ticket was it - how much was paid for it?
If it was a return ticket was this the outward or return journey?

My sister does not have a railcard at all (she rarely travels), my signature is just my name in cursive (can't get mixed up with my sister's since we have very different first names), and it was an open return ticket. The ticket that got this penalty fare was the outward journey and we were on the exact train the ticket was for. I presented both the ticket and my railcard when asked, so I really don't know what warranted the penalty fare other than the names not matching, which I was told shouldn't be an issue? What's more confusing was that on the way back from Birmingham, my ticket and railcard was checked by a different inspector and there wasn't a problem at all

 

[Acathater]

Surely the penalty fare is invalidated simply by being issued in the name of someone who wasn't actually traveling? Should that not be the basis of the appeal or any subsequent action?

 

[gray1404]

Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice.

Also your third and final appeal will need to very clear and somewhat concise.

 

[Egg Centric]

I have anxiety and I'm terrible with speaking up or any kind of confrontation.

Once your appeal is permitted, will you be comfortable pushing for some compensation here? I don't mean a court case etc, but it's certainly (assuming accurately described) one where reaching out to the right customer service bods or if that fails the right bodies should get you something once resolved as this is such an egregious error on their behalf.

This is also one of the rare cases where the issue is so simple to understand and so black and white that the standard "consumer champion" type journalists such as Anna Timms ought to be able to assist too.

 

[WesternLancer]

Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice.

Also your third and final appeal will need to very clear and somewhat concise.

Yes. Best that the wording is checked here by experts prior to the op submitting it.

 

[away_3046]

Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice.

Also your third and final appeal will need to very clear and somewhat concise.

the ticket is a bit crinkled and faded, but you can see that the physical ticket doesn't actually say a name (blurred out bit is the ticket number), it was only when I made an online appeal that it showed my sister's name instead of mine. As for supporting document mentioned on the ticket, I don't actually know what that could refer to since both my ticket and railcard were scanned, the only thing I can think of is a physical ID instead of a photo of my ID? But it just seems a bit silly to me because my actual railcard has my photo on it anyways.

 

[gray1404]

Can you remember where abouts on the train journey you were when you encounter the ticket inspection? Between what stations?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2026 ==

Alternatively can you remember what time your trained from Milton Keynes was at that you traveled on? It would also be helpful if you could confirm exactly what sort of ticket you would traveling on and the price of it.

 

[furlong]

Is there any other part of that notice - more text above the top or below the bottom - or on the reverse? If so please include a picture of that as well (covering any personal details) as the notice you have shared is legally incomplete. Or were you handed a leaflet or card or anything else alongside it? Certain additional information has to be given to you in writing (or else the notice can't be enforced).

And we do indeed need to know (or work out) the exact train you were on and the ticket type (and price).

(Basically, the idea is to try to find all the things that might be wrong with this first, before suggesting the best approach to a further appeal.)

The facts that both your ticket and (valid) railcard were scanned and your signature shows your correct matching name makes this even stranger. Did you mention part or all of that specifically in your first appeal?

 

[Egg Centric]

One other thing - the wording of your appeal rejection suggests that you've made two appeals so far. Can you clarify if you've made 1 or 2 and also upload the entirety of eyour correspondence so far?

 

[furlong]

Surely the penalty fare is invalidated simply by being issued in the name of someone who wasn't actually traveling?

Not so. The Penalty Fare is enforceable against the person it was handed to regardless of their true name. The person's name is not part of the Penalty Fare, but merely optional information gathered to help with future enforcement, particularly if it isn't paid in full on the spot. If asked, the person concerned has legal obligations to provide their correct name, address and date of birth but that information does not form part of the PF itself or affect its validity, just as the signature is optional and does not indicate agreement to anything - that's just to help with later disputes over tampering or identity - such as this one!

 

[LYradial]

I hesitate to come back on this but paragraph 7 of conditions of travel is worth a read, was it made clear at the time of purchase from the retailer that this was a personalised ticket.

 

[gembercannelle]

@away_3046 by "ticket" we mean the original train ticket. As far as I can see you uploaded the PFN.

 

[Haywain]

I hesitate to come back on this but paragraph 7 of conditions of travel is worth a read, was it made clear at the time of purchase from the retailer that this was a personalised ticket.

Let it go. The only 'personalised' tickets are season tickets and rovers and none of them get a railcard discount, so we know it can't be one of those.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2026 ==

As far as I can see you uploaded the PFN.

Not all of it.

 

[Swedenorer]

So in essence it boils down to what is meant by a personalised ticket and whether 5.1.1 applies in this case. I can see nothing that implies in any way that 5.1.1 applies only to season tickets. If so it should say so. I read it as applying to any designated railcard. But in this case it's merely a technicality. Any sensible appeals process would allows yours on the fact that while your sister might have made an error in buying a ticket for which she did not have a discount you the user did hold the discount so there has been no loss and on departure you had no reason to believe that you were not in possession of a valid ticket for your journey.

But as the whole process seems to involve built in incompetence who knows?

 

[Haywain]

So in essence it boils down to what is meant by a personalised ticket and whether 5.1.1 applies in this case. I

No, it doesn't. It boils down to whether the PFN has been issued in accordance with the regulations (the odds are that is hasn't) and whether there are other grounds for appeal.

 

[Swedenorer]

Well yes in a sense that is the position obviously - but any process that does not investigate the wider issues is not fit for purpose*. Nobody here as far as I can see acted with any intent to make a gain or to travel without a valid ticket. If the PF was withdrawn on any other technicality, say issued in the wrong name, the appellant may have saved £100 but still feel dissatisfied at the way they have been treated. That may only be an ethical point but it is I would argue a valid one.

* it isn't

 

[SuspectUsual]

Any sensible appeals process would allows yours on the fact that while your sister might have made an error in buying a ticket for which she did not have a discount

This, in and of itself, is not an issue. I buy railcard discounted tickets for my IT-illiterate parents many times a year, collect them from a TVM, and post them to them for them to use. They have - quite rightly - never had a problem with this

The fact that this purchase method puts the buyer’s name on the ticket is an irrelevance

 

[Haywain]

Well yes in a sense that is the position obviously - but any process that does not investigate the wider issues is not fit for purpose. Nobody here as far as I can see acted with any intent to make a gain or to travel without a valid ticket.. If the PF was withdrawn on any other technicality, say issued in the wrong name, the appellant may have saved £100 but still feel dissatisfied at the way they have been treated.

The purpose of the thread is to provide advice to the OP, not to discuss how the process should work and what should result from it. You can start a new thread if you wish to discuss wider issues.