Preferred Intercity Rolling Stock

[deltic08]

How else do you intend to provide the much needed capacity increases that are provided on many routes by doing this?

We need more capacity, and putting more seats on each train is one of the cheapest ways of doing that. I know that it's sad that railways seem to be getting less comfortable, but that is what happens when they are overcrowded and actually trying to be run at less of a loss, comprimises.

I totally disagree. Train travel is not compulsory thank goodness and people vote with their feet and wallets. My regular journeys are from Northallerton to Edinburgh, all leisure trips to visit family. I choose rail for the reason that it is comfortable and relaxing not on price. It is just as easy to travel by car and not rail. Rail just has the edge on door to door times until the A1 is upgraded in Northumberland. Packing in more seats than present will solve capacity problems. I will just go by car instead.

 

[starrymarkb]

It's an interesting dilemma. There is political pressure to keep fare rises down and to increase capacity. You could charge more and downseat the the trains to increase legroom, and leave the lower end of the market to National Express/Megabus but I can't see that being popular with the majority of standard passengers (who just want the cheapest seat) or politicians.

If there was room for an extra coach I can see a three class setup working well. First, Premium and Standard. Premium being like standard on an ICE (reclining seats, extra legroom, more tables) for those that want to pay for more comfort but not the full first class experience/fare.

 

[Firesprite]

I wonder what people would've thought of the Pendolino's first class had it ended up resembling this concept art.

That concept looks rather like the layout of a FFestinog railway 1st class coach.

 

[Gareth]

That looks awesome. A glass of wine and a newspaper and I'd be all set.

I'd say a cigar too but I don't smoke.

 

[nathanclass323]

That concept looks rather like the layout of a FFestinog railway 1st class coach.

Now that's what first class should be like. Not like what you'd find on a Crosscountry 170 or even a Pendolino for that matter.

 

[colchesterken]

Current stock MK3 other than Anglia they need a refurb . I went on an East Coast HST it was like a new train
I like our 360 they pull away and get up to speed well. They could do with new carpets and seat covers

Old stock..Cl 309..and mk 2 prior to air con I think that was A to C type..They used the last of them on the Harwich boat traing windows open great

 

[samuelmorris]

I find the Mk3s relaxing and comfortable to travel on, but they do squeak a lot in the vestibules

I actually found the table seat I had on a 222 to be quite comfortable - engine noise does not bother me unless it's very loud (e.g. a 150/153) but I concede an unpowered carriage or electrically-hauled unit offers a better experience.

Perhaps worryingly, I find there is far more air turbulence noise on a 395 than on a Mk3 or Mk4, even at a comparative speed (and certainly more than would be justified by an extra 15mph anyway) - has anyone else observed this? I'm a little concerned that that will be true of the 800/801 as well, given there will undoubtedly be a fair few similarities between the units. I also hope the brakes on the Super Express units don't smell as bad as on the 395s. Mk3s/Mk4s only smell that much when the brakes are heavily applied (moreso than would normally be required in service).

 

[colchesterken]

Not been on a 395 but being new I would have thought they would have re-gen brakes and just use the old fasioned way to stop from low speed and for emergency use
well well!

 

[junglejames]

Condescending much? I'd go with luddite fool . Horses for courses they say.

Spacious? Let's be objective here. The actual internal widths aren't much different, especially when you consider the profiles are a result of gauging. JungleJames in his infinite wisdom proved a while ago that modern IC units only have a few centimetres less leg room.

As for the seats, I'd rather sit on a bed of nails than sit in IC70 seats for more than an hour (and I did from Edinburgh to London a week ago and regularly use them on EMT). They provide the lumbar support of rice pudding and the arm rests seem to be positioned for a chimpanzee.

Well as my name is mentioned. I dont recall proving this. However legroom isnt everything. On voyagers, legroom isnt too bad now, however in every other way they are awful. In fact, one awful isnt enough. A thousand awfuls.

Internal widths are quite a bit different when bendy pendies are looked at. On voyagers it isnt as bad, but with our loading gauge, you dont need to lose much width before you really start noticing it.

Mk3s arent perfect, and the IC70 seats arent the most comfortable seats in the world, but pretty much everything about them beats anything modern that we have in the UK. Id even rather have a fixed armrest over something on a voyager, which is so thin, and has a curve to it. Meaning its next to useless. It may as well not be there.

So lets make sure my camp is firmly set up in the correct place, and thats squarely on the same side as DarloRich.

As for an answer to the original question. Currently its the EMT Mk3. Esp. in 1st class. I thought I was in heaven.
Moving back a little, then the FGW Mk3s before the refurb. Best standard class i have seen on a Mk3.

i appreciate what someone says about lumbar support on these seats, but i hate lumbar support. It gives me a bad back.
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As I've said before, these are modern! There's no reason something similar won't/can't be used in IEP.

Just dont walk from one end to the other. It'll be like a walking rollercoaster:roll:
The coaches with engines apparently have a higher floor than the coaches without engines!

 

[181]

I'm glad some people have put the 180s forward as preferred IC stock. I read an article some years ago which said that in designing the 180, Alstom's engineers aimed to re-create the feel of a mark 3 coach. They aligned seats with windows, in contrast to Voyagers. The main problem is the underfloor engines, which mean that in places they are definitely less restful than a loco-hauled coach - which is a consideration on a long journey.

The Irish intercity DMUs seem quite good to me -- as I recall, the underfloor engines aren't that obtrusive, and the ambience is similar to a Mk3 but with seats that match the windows (there's a lot to be said for Mk3s but they are where the rot started in that respect). Droplights would be good, if only for seeing what's going on when your train suffers an unexpected delay, but are probably an unrealistic expectation in a modern train.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I too like the droplight window in the Mk3 door for some air on a long journey. I feel sorry for the specimens who are too pathetically lazy to open the door of a Mark 2/3.

This has got nothing to do with being pathetic or indeed lazy. Instead this has got everything to do with a sub standard door mechanism which is not fit for the 21st century.
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I totally disagree. Train travel is not compulsory thank goodness and people vote with their feet and wallets. My regular journeys are from Northallerton to Edinburgh, all leisure trips to visit family. I choose rail for the reason that it is comfortable and relaxing not on price. It is just as easy to travel by car and not rail. Rail just has the edge on door to door times until the A1 is upgraded in Northumberland. Packing in more seats than present will solve capacity problems. I will just go by car instead.

Young man congratulations on throwing your toys out of the pram. Don't worry little man the toys will be replaced when you have your nap.

 

[yorksrob]

Door handles work perfectly well on cars and houses.

I don't see why having one on a train is sub standard.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Door handles work perfectly well on cars and houses.

I don't see why having one on a train is sub standard.

Oh come on are you suggesting that the door handle on a mk3 coach is user friendly to open from the inside? In no way can that be compared to entering your property!

 

[yorksrob]

Oh come on are you suggesting that the door handle on a mk3 coach is user friendly to open from the inside? In no way can that be compared to entering your property!

Admittedly, you do have to lean out for a Mk3, but at least on a train, you don't have to fumble about with keys !

The Mk2 door is easier though as you only have to twist the handle rather than push it down.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Admittedly, you do have to lean out for a Mk3, but at least on a train, you don't have to fumble about with keys !

The Mk2 door is easier though as you only have to twist the handle rather than push it down.

That all depends on how many pockets you have! In all fairness with the mk2 stock do you still need to have to lean out? Either way in my defence it is many years since I travelled on a mk2!

 

[Taunton]

It may sound ridiculous but the whole family commented on the most comfortable long distance stock we had taken recently was in a 1960s Mk 1 on the Bluebell Railway.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm 47 and go out of my way to avoid travelling on a HST on the MML. My family and I have been using the WCML for many years and I can honestly say that I don't miss the mk3's. I would rather drive than travel on what you would describe as a proper train. Why in the 21st century should I have to open a train door when a button should do it for me? Or have to put up with a drafty coach because some berk wants to have their head chopped off?

Imagine that: having to actually TOUCH a door handle :roll: That is before you consider the sheer horror of getting up and closing a window. MY GOD. How did we ever survive?

 

[Emyr]

Good luck reaching that door handle from a wheelchair or if you're just not tall enough or if you have a condition that limits your ability to grip or to get your hands onto the handle in the first place.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

1. HST (with original seating)
2. Although not Intercity, Class 377/1

3. 4 Cep (which was originally classed as "Inter City" stock
4. Bouncy seats in SR 2 and 4EPB

(sorry...couldn't resist the last two!)

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not convinced. People would have said exactly the same thing about the trains you enjoy now back when they were new, and yet I don't see anyone clamouring for Big Four carriages or anything these days...

Well, I was assuming that the topic was limited to current Intercity rolling stock, but if we are widening the criteria then I would like to share a view voiced by LE Greys on this forum some time ago that the most comfortable "Intercity" stock I have travelled on was the LMS Stanier compartment stock on the Severn Valley.

Not that I would have been impressed with the extended journey time of the two hour expresses of old every day that I was commuting to London compared to Virgins' Pendos, but there were certainly occasions when the idea of blasting down the West Coast in such stock behind a "Duchess" or a "Jubilee" appealed!

 

[starrymarkb]

Good luck reaching that door handle from a wheelchair or if you're just not tall enough or if you have a condition that limits your ability to grip or to get your hands onto the handle in the first place.

And what's that brown stuff on it

Seriously power doors also make it easier for dispatch. I've seen more then one HST get delayed by having platform staff run up and down the train closing doors only for another passenger to open one at the other end of the train. (BR cost cutting meant the Mk3s didn't get Autoclose mechanisms as fitted to continental stock of the time)

 

[asylumxl]

I'm 47 and go out of my way to avoid travelling on a HST on the MML. My family and I have been using the WCML for many years and I can honestly say that I don't miss the mk3's. I would rather drive than travel on what you would describe as a proper train. Why in the 21st century should I have to open a train door when a button should do it for me? Or have to put up with a drafty coach because some berk wants to have their head chopped off?

Here here!

Proper train? Proper something and the word isn't job...

 

[bronzeonion]

Personally if I was to have my very own personal intercity train I'd have any form of passenger carrying MK1 coach. Large windows that go low enough to get a lovely view out of, perfect seat alignment, most comfortable seats of any train i've been on and some excellent under-seat ETH heaters that heat up the whole seat! And you can turn them on or off if you want! But I suppose for a modern intercity train I wouldn't really class any of the stuff kicking about at the moment as properly fit for purpose. Closest things are the ex WSMR MK3's complete with plug doors.

 

[fowler9]

1st place goes to the Pendolinos. The fact that they tilt is a bonus and not always having a seat that lines up with a window is not an issue. I find the contents of my tablet / newspaper or for work laptop far more interesting! Not mention the fact that they are far safer and quicker than a mk3 loco hauled set. And a damn sight more reliable!

2nd place goes to the Meridians. They are reliable, comfortable and go like a rocket! In fact everything that a HST on the MML doesn't do!

3rd place goes to the mk4's. They are comfortable and spacious but I think the ride quality is rather suspect at times.

I have to say I can't stand the mk3's. They are drafty and having to open the external door / shut the external door is a pain in the bum. I'm aware that Chiltern have done a very good job of refurbishing their mk3's but Marylebone to Birmingham takes way too long!
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I really don't see why that is an issue. Surely it is more of a priority to install as many seats as possible, regardless as to whether this comes at the expense of a window view?
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I'm 47 and go out of my way to avoid travelling on a HST on the MML. My family and I have been using the WCML for many years and I can honestly say that I don't miss the mk3's. I would rather drive than travel on what you would describe as a proper train. Why in the 21st century should I have to open a train door when a button should do it for me? Or have to put up with a drafty coach because some berk wants to have their head chopped off?

How do the doors work in your house? Must be a real bind having to use a handle and all that old fashioned nonsense.

 

[yorksrob]

Seriously power doors also make it easier for dispatch. I've seen more then one HST get delayed by having platform staff run up and down the train closing doors only for another passenger to open one at the other end of the train. (BR cost cutting meant the Mk3s didn't get Autoclose mechanisms as fitted to continental stock of the time)

That's not really a passenger comfort issue though, so I might (being cheeky) suggest it is a little off topic

 

[asylumxl]

How do the doors work in your house? Must be a real bind having to use a handle and all that old fashioned nonsense.

Usually when you open a door in your house there's not a gap or drop to navigate. And since your house doesn't run to a timetable it doesn't matter if someone keeps reopening it.

 

[fowler9]

Usually when you open a door in your house there's not a gap or drop to navigate. And since your house doesn't run to a timetable it doesn't matter if someone keeps reopening it.

How ever did we survive before sliding door rolling stock. The trains are so much more comfortable now as well!

 

[SansPareil]

The buffet carriage of a Class 412 4Bep.

 

[asylumxl]

How ever did we survive before sliding door rolling stock. The trains are so much more comfortable now as well!

Yes. Rail enthusiasts tend to avoid them so there are more seats for people who wish to travel too. Truly, a paradise .

 

[fowler9]

Yes. Rail enthusiasts tend to avoid them so there are more seats for people who wish to travel too. Truly, a paradise .

Ha ha, I suspect the 185's are chocka through bad planning rather than loads of rail enthusiasts wanting to stand on them.