Power mad staff

[sh24]

I suspect it’s an awful station to work at, but that doesn’t excuse picking on low-lying fruit.

A lot of London station staff have to deal with a range of "challenging" behaviour, and can be quite aggressive as a result. Not a defense, just an observation.

Equally my local Zone 1 tube station has a member of staff who recognises me and wishes me a good morning every time I see her. So it can be done!

 

[66701GBRF]

Considering “Francis’ “ considerable following (2.4 million last time I looked that includes some quite big celebrities from here and overseas), you’d think that the staff member might have approached the conversation with a little more cheerful alacrity and a little less of the stereotypical entitled brusqueness that does occasionally appear common in our industry.

Not condoning the station manager here but why would you assume he (or anyone else) knows who "Francis" is? YouTubers or YouTube in general means naff all to a lot of people.

 

[superkopite]

WIthout seeing the start of Francis' interaction with the station staff it's hard to say if the Station Manager overreacted here and was out of order. Who knows what happened beforehand? I don't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The rules are that you're supposed to tell staff that you're there when you arrive.

At Network Rail stations you're supposed to sign in at reception:

Guidelines for taking photos at stations - Network Rail

What you need to know about taking photos and films at our stations to ensure a safe and enjoyable experience.

www.networkrail.co.uk

When you arrive at a station, please let the staff at the Network Rail Reception Desk know that you are there. This will keep station staff informed, so that they can go about their duties without concern about why you are there.

National Rail's guidance is that you let staff know at smaller stations:

Guidance for Rail Enthusiasts | National Rail

Help and guidance on trains and stations for anyone who is a trainspotter, a train buff, a rail fan, a rail enthusiast or even a ferroequinologist!

www.nationalrail.co.uk

If you are visiting a major station, please ask any member of station staff to tell the Duty Station Manager that you are there. At smaller stations just let any member of station staff know. This means they will be aware that you are on the station – and why you are there – and will be able to do their jobs without wondering what you are doing.

So if Francis didn't do this- and judging by the Station Manager's reaction he didn't- then it is precious little wonder he found himself having an unnecessary argument. Especially at Wembley Central where there are safety restrictions in place for access to platforms 3-6.

Ironically the National Rail website link has an excerpt from Francis' book!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vlogging isn’t commercial use.

I'd say it was. If you make money out of it it's commercial use. Non-commercial use is taking photographs/filming for your own personal record and not using them to make money in any shape or form.

A well-known, heavily monetised vlog is absolutely commercial use in my book. And it's totally reasonable for any business to want to share in the profits of such activities on their premises, just as they would on the profits for selling cups of tea.

 

[birchesgreen]

I'd say it was. If you make money out of it it's commercial use. Non-commercial use is taking photographs/filming for your own personal record and not using them to make money in any shape or form.

A well-known, heavily monetised vlog is absolutely commercial use in my book. And it's totally reasonable for any business to want to share in the profits of such activities on their premises, just as they would on the profits for selling cups of tea.

Its a grey area, anytime you put photos or videos online (especially on third party sites) you could be earning money (though from experience you won't earn much unless you are super popular). As vloggers get more popular like this Bourgoise bloke then maybe there needs to be a special category but the vast majority will make Sweet F*** All.

 

[dosxuk]

Its a grey area, anytime you put photos or videos online (especially on third party sites) you could be earning money (though from experience you won't earn much unless you are super popular). As vloggers get more popular like this Bourgoise bloke then maybe there needs to be a special category but the vast majority will make SFA.

If a Hollywood movie loses money that doesn't make it a non-commercial production. Neither does producing videos for a monetised YouTube channel, and then not getting any viewers. The purpose is still commercial (rather than personal).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a Hollywood movie loses money that doesn't make it a non-commercial production. Neither does producing videos for a monetised YouTube channel, and then not getting any viewers. The purpose is still commercial (rather than personal).

Indeed.

The rule could (and perhaps should) be changed to instead say "professional use", which would leave out the hobbyist vloggers who are basically just funding their hosting and a pint or two on a Saturday evening (and almost certainly not declaring it for taxation as they probably should be) - but as things stand I wouldn't say it's grey - if at the time you are photographing/filming you expect that you will receive money in return for doing so, even if only a little money, then that's commercial use.

Having said that, staff should be polite and non-aggressive at all times, the only time aggression might be justified is if you need to remove someone from immediate danger of death or life-changing injury (e.g. pulling someone back from a platform edge as a train they haven't seen is approaching at speed). If staff get angry with people for any reason, they're in the wrong job, even if the passenger responds angrily and thus needs to be removed from the station professionalism is always key. And staff do need to be professional enough to see if a disability might be involved and might affect how someone reacts, too (noting that the vlogger in this case is autistic and very obviously so).

It is true that the WCML platforms at Wembley are specifically controlled for safety reasons, but "I'm sorry, I'll have to ask you to leave the platform now for your own safety" is the sort of approach that needs to be taken.

Having said that, I did just watch it and the guy didn't seem to be *that* aggressive, more assertive. Politely assertive is fine when safety is the issue. I *think* there is also signage on the platform entrances there, so it wouldn't have necessarily been unexpected? (What I personally dislike is being told off for something that isn't intuitively not allowed and where there's no signage or similar - it's unnecessary embarrassment, which many autistic people, who often obsessively follow rules so long as they are aware of them, can react very adversely to indeed, resulting in a major altercation that isn't necessary).

 

[Snex]

WIthout seeing the start of Francis' interaction with the station staff it's hard to say if the Station Manager overreacted here and was out of order. Who knows what happened beforehand? I don't.

Regardless to what happened before that's not how you react. If there was an altercation before, it's a quick route to get punched though if it was the wrong person.

 

[AlterEgo]

Debatable

"Commercial use" covers everything that isn't "Personal use" - it's nothing to do with filming adverts. Vlogging for the purposes of producing a video that is shared publicly would be difficult to argue is personal use - especially if it was produced specifically for a monetised channel.

In theory yes, but not in practice, as everyone well knows. 99.9% of vlogging is done without express permission and that is not going to change. Society has already moved.

What is the difference between a BBC producer videoing trains at a station for part of a blog post on their website, and a YouTuber videoing themselves chasing trains for views on their channel?

In practice there is no difference between either of them.

Companies have policies about commercial use so they can extract location fees for professional filming from large companies. That is about the sum of it, in practice.

Personally, I don't see why so many vloggers have such a problem with going and checking in with the places they wish to film, it's so very rarely an issue, and it's generally much better to have the argument about whether they should allow you on their premises in a nice warm office with a senior member of staff who can actually make decisions, than someone who's cold, wet, fed up and just trying to do their job on a platform edge.

In practice you can vlog basically anywhere as long as you are not a dick, which is the golden rule of life to be honest.

Francis came up against a specific safety procedure here relating to his presence on the platform when it would otherwise be locked off, and this is the only reason he was spoken to.

I have had maybe three or four requests not to film before and they have been entirely polite, and only one of them was a blanket "hi, sorry you can't film" - the others were "oh cool! But could I not be in the final video please?" and of course that is perfectly reasonable.

None of those were in a railway context either.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

More and more staff act in such a power hungry way and it makes the railway a less and less appealing place to be.

Screaming along platforms for people to stand behind the yellow line as their trains are approaching seems to be the latest fashion. The yellow line that was provided for fast trains but now apparently applies to all trains. Just another example of the railway being particularly customer unfriendly (where else do you hear staff shouting at innocent people within seconds of arriving at a business?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

More and more staff act in such a power hungry way and it makes the railway a less and less appealing place to be.

Screaming along platforms for people to stand behind the yellow line as their trains are approaching seems to be the latest fashion. The yellow line that was provided for fast trains but now apparently applies to all trains. Just another example of the railway being particularly customer unfriendly (where else do you hear staff shouting at innocent people within seconds of arriving at a business?)

The yellow line changes improve safe dispatch and do make sense, but the screaming doesn't. People don't hear what people are saying when they are screaming. It achieves nothing but creating a bad atmosphere.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

The yellow line changes improve safe dispatch and do make sense, but the screaming doesn't. People don't hear what people are saying when they are screaming. It achieves nothing but creating a bad atmosphere.

Not a lot of dispatch happening when the train is arriving though. It’s just completely unnecessary.

 

[BAFRA77]

Indeed.

The rule could (and perhaps should) be changed to instead say "professional use", which would leave out the hobbyist vloggers who are basically just funding their hosting and a pint or two on a Saturday evening (and almost certainly not declaring it for taxation as they probably should be) - but as things stand I wouldn't say it's grey - if at the time you are photographing/filming you expect that you will receive money in return for doing so, even if only a little money, then that's commercial use.

Having said that, staff should be polite and non-aggressive at all times, the only time aggression might be justified is if you need to remove someone from immediate danger of death or life-changing injury (e.g. pulling someone back from a platform edge as a train they haven't seen is approaching at speed). If staff get angry with people for any reason, they're in the wrong job, even if the passenger responds angrily and thus needs to be removed from the station professionalism is always key. And staff do need to be professional enough to see if a disability might be involved and might affect how someone reacts, too (noting that the vlogger in this case is autistic and very obviously so).

It is true that the WCML platforms at Wembley are specifically controlled for safety reasons, but "I'm sorry, I'll have to ask you to leave the platform now for your own safety" is the sort of approach that needs to be taken.

Having said that, I did just watch it and the guy didn't seem to be *that* aggressive, more assertive. Politely assertive is fine when safety is the issue. I *think* there is also signage on the platform entrances there, so it wouldn't have necessarily been unexpected? (What I personally dislike is being told off for something that isn't intuitively not allowed and where there's no signage or similar - it's unnecessary embarrassment, which many autistic people, who often obsessively follow rules so long as they are aware of them, can react very adversely to indeed, resulting in a major altercation that isn't necessary).

You’ve pretty much nailed it there. One man’s assertive can be seen as another man’s aggressiveness.

I do like Francis’ content on the whole - and the fact he sounds a bit like F1 driver George Russell…

 

[deltic]

I had a similar encounter (though less heated) at Sydenham. The platform guy was telling me that I had to have a permit and stuff, and that drivers had been complaining. Telling him that it was for YouTube as a passion project made no difference to anything in the moment.
I decided to sit down for a bit and process, and ten minutes later, he comes back and corrects himself and tells me I can do what I like as long as I keep behind the yellow line, not that I hadn’t already been!

That takes some guts to both look up the rules and come back to you and say I got it wrong and what you are doing is okay - and should be complemented for doing that.

 

[7Sonofa7Son]

More and more staff act in such a power hungry way and it makes the railway a less and less appealing place to be.

Screaming along platforms for people to stand behind the yellow line as their trains are approaching seems to be the latest fashion. The yellow line that was provided for fast trains but now apparently applies to all trains. Just another example of the railway being particularly customer unfriendly (where else do you hear staff shouting at innocent people within seconds of arriving at a business?)

What some might consider screaming, others may consider as shouting with the express purpose of being heard to reinforce a safety feature of the PTI.

If I'm a guard or platform staff, it's my job to ensure the dispatch corridor is clear and if I see someone behind the yellow line on their phone with their hands over the white edge of the platform then you better believe I'm going to get their attention to relay that instruction using my voice. I'm not having a near miss or someone getting hit by a train on my watch.

The shouting isn't there to make people feel uncomfortable, it's to enforce the boundary of the yellow line. What do you expect staff to do if the person behind that line is more than ten feet away? Politely remind them using soft dulcet tones?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What some might consider screaming, others may consider as shouting with the express purpose of being heard to reinforce a safety feature of the PTI.

If I'm a guard or platform staff, it's my job to ensure the dispatch corridor is clear and if I see someone behind the yellow line on their phone with their hands over the white edge of the platform then you better believe I'm going to get their attention to relay that instruction using my voice. I'm not having a near miss or someone getting hit by a train on my watch.

If you don't dispatch the train while they're stood there, there's no risk. You're shouting to avoid delay, not danger. One exception - people wandering in after the right away has been given, but even in that case scaring them risks sending them towards rather than away from the train, much better to go over to them and encourage them backwards carefully.

I've watched this lots of times - shouting simply doesn't achieve anything, ever. Someone always goes over in the end.

The shouting isn't there to make people feel uncomfortable, it's to enforce the boundary of the yellow line. What do you expect staff to do if the person behind that line is more than ten feet away? Politely remind them using soft dulcet tones?

Where there are dispatchers, having them go over to the person is almost certain to resolve the issue quicker than shouting. But some countries have clearly enunciated automatic announcements for this sort of purpose (often with a dedicated tone used only to announce departure) and have for years. And others have speakers on the outside of trains so the request can be spoken rather than yelled (do I recall that the 777s do?)

 

[7Sonofa7Son]

If you don't dispatch the train while they're stood there, there's no risk. You're shouting to avoid delay, not danger. One exception - people wandering in after the right away has been given, but even in that case scaring them risks sending them towards rather than away from the train, much better to go over to them and encourage them backwards carefully.

Fair points, yeah. You (or I) wouldn't RTS when someone is clearly in the way (or at least I hope not). If someone has moved in between the yellow line and the moving train, that's up to the Divine as far as I'm concerned.

I've watched this lots of times - shouting simply doesn't achieve anything, ever. Someone always goes over in the end.

I suppose that depends on what you would consider shouting. I have a loud voice and will shout to be heard. It's often successful because I'm not *screaming* at the person and I'm particular with my words i.e "stand clear please/train is about to leave."

Where there are dispatchers, having them go over to the person is almost certain to resolve the issue quicker than shouting. But some countries have clearly enunciated automatic announcements for this sort of purpose (often with a dedicated tone used only to announce departure) and have for years. And others have speakers on the outside of trains so the request can be spoken rather than yelled (do I recall that the 777s do?)

But if you have a busy platform in London or another big city and the platform staff are waiting at their designated dispatch point, it's safer to use your voice (or PA device if you have one) than to leave your dispatch point to go and speak to individuals one-by-one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose that depends on what you would consider shouting. I have a loud voice and will shout to be heard. It's often successful because I'm not *screaming* at the person and I'm particular with my words i.e "stand clear please/train is about to leave."

If it can be heard then that's fine. However very often staff doing it don't have the kind of "booming", deep voice needed to do that and it just comes across as random screaming.

But if you have a busy platform in London or another big city and the platform staff are waiting at their designated dispatch point, it's safer to use your voice (or PA device if you have one) than to leave your dispatch point to go and speak to individuals one-by-one.

Dispatchers being able to make PA announcements certainly help, as that's much clearer.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose that depends on what you would consider shouting.

I consider the member of staff in the video to be shouting. Is it really up for debate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I consider the member of staff in the video to be shouting. Is it really up for debate?

I'd say the video was right on the borderline between being assertive, a bit rude* and shouting, but I wouldn't really call it the latter.

* The "I don't care..." bit, belittling the passenger's wishes, wasn't good customer service. "If you want to see a train..." would have been a better phrasing that didn't have in-built potential escalation via belittling. What the passenger wants to do may not be allowed, but their wishes shouldn't be belittled - nobody gains from that and it risks escalation to abuse/assault unnecessarily. "I understand why you want to do that, but I'm afraid I can't let you do it for safety reasons on this station because the platforms are so narrow and a bit of a wind tunnel" is the kind of message needed.

 

[geoffk]

You don’t need permission to film yourself or trains at a station, usually, although Wembley Central has unique procedures which others have mentioned due to safety.

I must say I've never asked permission to take photographs, although would probably do so on London area stations, which I rarely visit. I've only been told once that I needed to sign in and that was at Liverpool Street. I find that staff on stations don't bother me but always have a copy of the Guidance for Railway Enthusiasts in my camera bag just in case. I've seen other photographers occupying station seats meant for passengers and even using flash - neither of which does anything for our "image".

 

[AlterEgo]

I must say I've never asked permission to take photographs, although would probably do so on London area stations, which I rarely visit. I've only been told once that I needed to sign in and that was at Liverpool Street. I find that staff on stations don't bother me but always have a copy of the Guidance for Railway Enthusiasts in my camera bag just in case. I've seen other photographers occupying station seats meant for passengers and even using flash - neither of which does anything for our "image".

For sure. I always move about a station and don’t sit on the ends of platforms for extended periods. For clarity, if I wanted to spend an hour in one place at a station I’d probably sign in. Easier for everyone I think.

 

[bramling]

What some might consider screaming, others may consider as shouting with the express purpose of being heard to reinforce a safety feature of the PTI.

If I'm a guard or platform staff, it's my job to ensure the dispatch corridor is clear and if I see someone behind the yellow line on their phone with their hands over the white edge of the platform then you better believe I'm going to get their attention to relay that instruction using my voice. I'm not having a near miss or someone getting hit by a train on my watch.

The shouting isn't there to make people feel uncomfortable, it's to enforce the boundary of the yellow line. What do you expect staff to do if the person behind that line is more than ten feet away? Politely remind them using soft dulcet tones?

It’s one thing for safety reasons, though still not the best method.

In the Wembley Central video there’s clearly no immediate safety issue, it’s come across that the member of staff is simply affronted that the person didn’t seek permission for being on the platform. Now we don’t know what happened beforehand because that part of the video hasn’t been provided (which does arouse suspicions that there could be a little more to this), but shrieking along a corridor and aggressively pointing a finger gives the impression of someone who has lost control of the situation, so presents itself poorly to everyone party to it.

 

[Starmill]

I'd say the video was right on the borderline between being assertive, a bit rude* and shouting, but I wouldn't really call it the latter.

* The "I don't care..." bit, belittling the passenger's wishes, wasn't good customer service. "If you want to see a train..." would have been a better phrasing that didn't have in-built potential escalation via belittling. What the passenger wants to do may not be allowed, but their wishes shouldn't be belittled - nobody gains from that and it risks escalation to abuse/assault unnecessarily. "I understand why you want to do that, but I'm afraid I can't let you do it for safety reasons on this station because the platforms are so narrow and a bit of a wind tunnel" is the kind of message needed.

Usually an effective assertion is one without a raised voice.

 

[Sealink]

I was told off at Cockfosters station for taking pics of the amazing station building. A massive security risk apparently.

 

[Thechopperguy]

I have been watching some of Francis (the trainspotter) videos. And he has a run in with this station staff member. Why do people love the power and the sound of their own voice and do this.

I cant see what he has done wrong to be honest.

I think the last time I needed a platform ticket I was 8 !!!

 

[birchesgreen]

If a Hollywood movie loses money that doesn't make it a non-commercial production. Neither does producing videos for a monetised YouTube channel, and then not getting any viewers. The purpose is still commercial (rather than personal).

I doubt the vast majority of people who upload to YouTube are doing so for coin. Thats why i said its a grey area, in theory it is commercial but in practice for 99%+ it won't be anything more than a bit of fun.

 

[bramling]

I was told off at Cockfosters station for taking pics of the amazing station building. A massive security risk apparently.

Been fed the brown stuff there. Once explained to staff what you were doing there shouldn’t have been a problem, though it’s reasonable for them to ask a few questions in a friendly way as photographing layouts can be a sign of possible reconnaissance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the Wembley Central video there’s clearly no immediate safety issue, it’s come across that the member of staff is simply affronted that the person didn’t seek permission for being on the platform.

Wembley Central has very narrow platforms and is somewhat of a wind tunnel. Thus, access is not available to the fast line platforms at all, and on the slow line platforms access is only opened after no train is going to pass through before the arrival of the hourly Southern, and closed once the platform has cleared post departure. It's a unique way of operating that I'm fairly sure has signage of some sort, and seem to recall it's only enforced by way of Tensabarriers. For that reason, if you're wanting to photograph a train on the WCML Wembley Central isn't the place to do it, as access is almost certain to be refused for anything other than the purpose of boarding/alighting from the Southern.

Only the Overground platforms are accessible at all times.

From what the guy was saying it sounds a bit like the YouTuber may have ducked under/opened that Tensabarrier himself to get onto the platform. If so, while I don't think anger is a sensible response to any situation, the member of staff would probably have been within his rights to chuck him out of the station for entering a non-public area, which is actually a Byelaw offence for which he could have technically been prosecuted - but ideally to do so politely - "I"m afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave the station because..."

Edit: It is however also possible that the barrier was incorrectly left open by the staff and so that he accessed the platform in good faith.

It's a very unusual case indeed, the only other place this sort of thing is in place (that I know of) is Bushey on the down fast, though I suspect you'd also get short shrift if you were the wrong side of the fast line gates at any other south WCML platform, if only to avoid the risk of suicides. That is different of course because it's easy enough to film from the correct side of them just like a lineside fence - at Wembley Central there's no permissible place to be where you could clearly film trains on the slows or fasts aside from the arrival/departure of the Southern service.