Potters Bar Inquest

[Crossforth]

Don't know whether this has been posted else where on here or who has seen it but for those interested:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8715011.stm

 

[generalvegitable]

-- removed --

 

[GB]

I'd hardly call a networker a high speed train

Why?

It may not be a high speed train as in an HST, but given they are rated for 100mph its certainly not a slow speed train.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Derailing at 97mph is pretty high speed Generalvegetable.

 

[313103]

Aside from the gramatical errors that may or may not have been made, it is about time that the Inquest has started some 8 years after the original incident.
Perhaps those that lost loved ones and those affected may at long last get some answers.

 

[Kernowfem]

My thoughts are with the family of those killed and those who were injured that day. I hope this inquest will answer some questions for them.

 

[anonymous0101]

-- removed --

O S Nock in Railways of the 20th century said that an express train was one that had a top speed of at least 90 mph.

 

[jon0844]

My thoughts are with the family of those killed and those who were injured that day. I hope this inquest will answer some questions for them.

I was in Potters Bar that day, about an hour after it happened. At the time I didn't even realise as everything was closed off.

It was a nasty accident, and given that 365s can and do go at 100mph (they'll actually do as much as 103-104mph between Hadley Wood and Welham Green/Hatfield, which I presume must be where it hits a limiter?), I'd say they're pretty high speed.

 

[anonymous0101]

I don't like the implication that drivers need speed limiters, and they don't. 365's are not fitted with them.

 

[Old Timer]

The term high speed would be used in comparison to a speed that the average reader/listener, etc would recognise, I would suggest.

As no-one may travel legally on a public road at more than 70 mph then anything above that speed would be thought by the media to be "high speed" as far as the average punter in the street is concerned, many of whom have probably never ever travelled on a train.

Hatfield very regrettably was used as a convenient political stick with which to beat the Infrastructure Maintenance Contractors, and the fall out never considered the failings of technical leadership and management within Railtrack.

Many of the failings for which the Infrastructure Maintenance Contractors were so castigated have never been adequately addressed since and in some cases are now actually worse, as a look through any RAIB accident report will quickly indicate.

Whilst Railtrack may not have been the best means of managing the Infrastructure, at least there was a form of independent scrutiny between maintenance standards achieved and those specified. Now that this has been removed, to misquote the Roman poet Juvenal...Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Answers on a postcard, please.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't like the implication that drivers need speed limiters, and they don't. 365's are not fitted with them.

If it's good enough for lorries and coaches, why not trains? If anything, it's an added safety feature on a train.

 

[455driver]

Lorries, coaches AND trains have MAXIMUM speed limiters.
TBH any driver that regularly exceeds the maximum for the line or train will be out of a job very quickly indeed.

 

[Crossforth]

Lorries, coaches AND trains have MAXIMUM speed limiters.
TBH any driver that regularly exceeds the maximum for the line or train will be out of a job very quickly indeed.

Agreed

I can't believe Richard Branson congratulated the driver of the 390 on the record run to Scotland for managing to keep the train at 129mph where he could. He is effectively encouraging speeding

 

[Old Timer]

Agreed

I can't believe Richard Branson congratulated the driver of the 390 on the record run to Scotland for managing to keep the train at 129mph where he could. He is effectively encouraging speeding

I think you will find that the maximum permitted speed was specially raised for that trip, thus the Driver was driving within the authorised speed.

 

[Crossforth]

Well if that is the case I take it back but if not, then it's wrong

 

[Old Timer]

Speeding can be an emotive subject.

You need to start at the premise however that there are considerable margins of safety built in to both the train and the track infrastructure.

With modern equipment, speed measurement is much more accurate than it was in BR days.

Now looking back at BR days, there was requirement on the Driver to try to "make up" time where this was possible without endangering the train.

In those days the art of driving was in knowing both your train and your line.

If we take the case of Saltley depot, whose men had an admirable reputation when on a lte running train the Driver would try to make up what time he could. This on occasion would involve running at slightly above the permitted linespeed.

Now not one of those men I would regard as being anything other than professional. Their judgements as to how fast they could run above the published line speed would be down to how the train was riding, and how the train brake was responding.

A speed at which the ride is becoming unsafe will be felt as a rough ride well before it gets to the point where it is dangerous. It was this margin which the old BR Drivers were well versed in running within, and they knew exactly where they could push the speed and by how much.

Within the PSB it could be seen where a man was driving hard to recover time and this was accepted by the Signalmen, who would do their best to keep a "runner" going.

In all my years I cannot recall a single occasion when any complaint was made about a Driver's handling of a train when running late, and in the fianl analysis it could well be argued that a slight degree of over-speeding was actually enhancing safety by reducing the potential disruption and inevitable adverse signals on other trains. As long as a signal is at proceed it cannot be subject to a Spad

Of course there is a different attitude now but I wonder exactly HOW long it will be before someone decides that a degree of over-speeding could be helpful in recovering time and minimising delay minutes in locations where the track is suitable. ?

 

[caliwag]

I assume the inquest has been called now that Jarvis has gone under... I guess fat boy Norris had pulled a few strings!

 

[Old Timer]

Not a comment I would have made on a public forum.

 

[jon0844]

I don't like the implication that drivers need speed limiters, and they don't. 365's are not fitted with them.

Chill out - I didn't say that a driver needed them*. I simply thought they HAD limiters as I've always been told how trains can't speed. But then I've never been on a Mk4/91 doing 140mph or a 313 doing almost a ton on the same bit of fast line as the 365s doing over 100!

On every single occasion that I've taken a certain FCC service that runs fast from Finsbury Park to Hatfield, I have GPS logs that show where it exceeds 100mph (and arrives anything up to THREE minutes early at Hatfield, which suggests it isn't trying to make up time!). I shall not mention the service time, or the day, so there's no accusation that I'm dropping any drivers in the proverbial. Not that I'd expect a few MPH over is a problem, given that there might be an acceptable margin of error on the speedo?

I certainly would expect a significant safety margin, so at NO TIME WHATSOEVER would I say that nudging it over 100mph is putting anyone or anything in danger. And I wouldn't want anyone to have ever thought I was suggesting that.

* Although, now you mention it, if the drivers are exceeding their permitted speed them maybe they do need limiters!

 

[455driver]

Now looking back at BR days, there was a requirement on the Driver to try to "make up" time where this was possible without endangering the train.

In those days the art of driving was in knowing both your train and your line.

I remember an occasion in the early 80s at Carlisle PSB when a late running Freightliner (2x86s) was looped out at the limit of the PSB area, driver came onto the SPT with the usual "whats to do bobby", with the driver being told there were 6 (I think) class 1s to go through. Short conversation later the liner was out behind the first of the class 1s with 5 more bearing down on it. Now that liner shot across the panel like a clipped cat and got onto the avoider without delaying anything.
What is it they say about "clear understanding"

A mate and I were at Stafford doing an overnighter with a string of liners running through all about the same speed when one came barreling through at a right rate of knots way above all the others, we just looked at each other and didn't say a word but just smiled

 

[anonymous0101]

Lorries, coaches AND trains have MAXIMUM speed limiters.
TBH any driver that regularly exceeds the maximum for the line or train will be out of a job very quickly indeed.

Lorries and Coaches have speed limiters because in the past they have abused their speed limits so much that measures had to be taken to reduce accidents - basically their drivers cannot be trusted to adhere to the speed limits.

Trains on the other hand should be different. As a professional train driver do you speed? Of course not. Some trains but not all have top speed limiters - and if they do they allow a few mph above the top speed. On Lorries and Coaches the limiter is set at or below the EU settings of 90 or 100 kph respectively.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Chill out - I didn't say that a driver needed them*. I simply thought they HAD limiters as I've always been told how trains can't speed. But then I've never been on a Mk4/91 doing 140mph or a 313 doing almost a ton on the same bit of fast line as the 365s doing over 100!

On every single occasion that I've taken a certain FCC service that runs fast from Finsbury Park to Hatfield, I have GPS logs that show where it exceeds 100mph (and arrives anything up to THREE minutes early at Hatfield, which suggests it isn't trying to make up time!). I shall not mention the service time, or the day, so there's no accusation that I'm dropping any drivers in the proverbial. Not that I'd expect a few MPH over is a problem, given that there might be an acceptable margin of error on the speedo?

I certainly would expect a significant safety margin, so at NO TIME WHATSOEVER would I say that nudging it over 100mph is putting anyone or anything in danger. And I wouldn't want anyone to have ever thought I was suggesting that.

* Although, now you mention it, if the drivers are exceeding their permitted speed them maybe they do need limiters!

I've been told by someone that 3 mph is an acceptable margin or error on the speedometer.

 

[142094]

3mph sounds about right on cars, although hard to tell if this is a lack of accuracy or that they are set this way.

 

[O L Leigh]

Hang on. Why are we even discussing speeding?

Speed was not a causal factor in the accident, only a factor in the severity of the outcome. I am not aware that the driver was even suspected of speeding.

O L Leigh

 

[Failed Unit]

Hang on. Why are we even discussing speeding?

Speed was not a causal factor in the accident, only a factor in the severity of the outcome. I am not aware that the driver was even suspected of speeding.

O L Leigh

I think it has just spun over from someone saying that the 365's could not be classed as express units (although where known as networker express under BR )

As you state it has already been acknowledged that the driver was well below the speed limit for the line and unit at the time (92mph IIRC)

Some of the other points 104mph on a 100mph unit, I don't think that would even raise an eyelid with the management, considering that you are only as good as your speedo. Remember traffic police allow a 10% tolance.

I am with Old Timer on the excess speed, 156's in the old days were clocked at 82mph often, HST's at 130? Not a problem really on stretches of line between York and Darlington or Grantham and Peterborough. I know this is off topic but we must be sensible. Yes train drivers are professional people but the press would have a field day if they were even only 5mph over the limit. We then go onto roads when people are actively damaging speed cameras. The speed limit for a lorry on a A road is 40mph, I can't remember the last time I followed one doing 40mph and they all have tachographs so this could be very easily picked up on after the even. People don't care, why? Because they would rather be travelling at 60mph. The day I see the daily mail campaigning for lorries to observe the speedlimit would be the day I may consider reading it. I am sure the passengers would if speedlimits were occasionally broken to get a service back on time. However I suspect this post has just poked a wasps nest, so all I can say is have you ever done 33mph in a 30mph zone?

 

[Zoe]

Remember traffic police allow a 10% tolance.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, some may well allow this but legally you can be prosecuted for doing 70.1 mph on a motorway.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I wouldn' be so sure of that, some may well allow this but legally you can be prosecuted for doing 70.1 mph on a motorway.

It may not be the written law but remember case law and precedents count as well. I wouldn't rely on it though.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As I understand it, car speedos may not under read at all, but may over read by up to 10%, which is why most forces use their discretion within that margin.

On the railway, I seem to recall reading that there is a general 3mph allowance.

When overspeed test runs / timing trials are carried out I guess it probably takes quite a lot of prior organisation these days and while it has been done in the past ( and I have been fortunate enough to enjoy one such run over quite a distance quite by chance, plus one instance a decade ago where a late running class 1 was given a special authority and certainly made good use of it ), I doubt any sort of speed trial would now be allowed on a service train.

However, as has been pointed out the Potter's Bar train was well within the limits, so maybe we need a separate thread to discuss the subject of speed limits generally?

 

[Greeny]

I'm with Old Timer on this one. As long as you have got 'good' Drivers who know their patches, and their loco and their characteristics intimately, a few mph over is safe. Trouble now though, is that too may people are looking for medals and a train a few mph over is handing it up on a plate to whoever is doing speed checks.

G

 

[jon0844]

However I suspect this post has just poked a wasps nest, so all I can say is have you ever done 33mph in a 30mph zone?

Never.

Actually, in a car, because the law only allows a 10% margin in one way (i.e. you can't have a speedo that under-reads), the speedos in all cars are calibrated to lie, which is usually around 3-4mph. That's every modern car, and all set in the ECU. In theory you could modify it (indeed the police will, but they need to calibrate regularly and display a sticker to show when last dne) but you shouldn't as it takes into account tyre pressure and wear.

As a result, nobody doing 30mph (or even going over a teeny weeny bit as is so easy) will be speeding and so there's never any risk of being done for doing 30.1mph in a 30mph (and I am very sure they could if the police had accurately calibrated equipment). Almost everyone driving on the road at an indicated 30mph will be doing 26-27mph at most. To be doing 30.1, you've got to be seeing quite clearly that you're over 30mph on the needle/display. On my old Ford Focus, I could disable the offset by going into a 'test mode'. The needle still showed the offset speed, but the LCD display showed the actual speed.

I would say the police would never do anyone for such a speed as it would be a PR nightmare (try explaining to Joe Public about how their speedo works in reality) and it would also mean catching loads of people who are quite happy to do 35mph in a 30. The current system actually works quite well because people are happy to speed, but aren't actually speeding as much as they think!!

I presume that trains show the actual speed with no offset. If there was then I'd expect to see the train never reaching 100mph at all, as to do so would require the driver to go over all the time.

 

[Greeny]

People might find this helpful.

http://www.pepipoo.com/files/ACPO/ACPO_enforcement_guidelines.htm

It may help avoid threads like this one being overtaken with road issues.

G