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Potential South London improvement ideas?

brad465

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An interesting article from From The Murky Depths regarding the Rainham Thameslink service


A few comments are against removing but fail to see how services have gotten bad and slow along the Woolwich and Greenwich lines since 2018, what SE needs to do is restore the full 8tph between Slade Green and Charlton, thereby 6tph via Greenwich, 2tph via Blackheath

Another points is that the Thameslink is paralleled by faster alternatives to get to the core.
Given that huge sums of money were spent on the Bermondsey dive under with the aim of eliminating flat crossing moves between London Bridge and the New Cross area, putting the Rainham train in which has to cross the Cannon St lines on the flat feels like a less than ideal addition.

I suppose those trains through the TL core have to go somewhere, and Rainham was probably identified as a least worst option, but it's still not a good one. No idea where they could go instead, though.
While I agree TL shouldn't have taken on that service, the problem SE have with taking it back is they may not have the rolling stock at the moment to make it possible. To make it work SE might have to reduce the lengths and/or frequency of services on other routes. If they order enough new trains though in their proposed tender they might be able to though.
 
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Sad Sprinter

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although I’ve been complaining about the Sydenham Corridor, one chronically overlooked route is the “Portsmouth” line through Dulwich. When waiting for the Victoria train at London Bridge, these services always seem like the busiest, behind the Epsom trains, of the Southern services from LB.
 

Jaydubya

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although I’ve been complaining about the Sydenham Corridor, one chronically overlooked route is the “Portsmouth” line through Dulwich. When waiting for the Victoria train at London Bridge, these services always seem like the busiest, behind the Epsom trains, of the Southern services from LB.
Yes they are busy. The Crystal Palace / East Croydon via Tulse Hill have some of the shortest trains - most are 6 cars long. Pre pandemic used to be 6 trains per hour in the peak with the bonus Sutton services of which one peak buster has been since reintroduced.
 

SynthD

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Speaking of short trains, when will Canada Water be rebuilt with longer, wider platforms? TfL own the necessary freehold in the northern half of the bus station.
 

JonathanH

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Speaking of short trains, when will Canada Water be rebuilt with longer, wider platforms? TfL own the necessary freehold in the northern half of the bus station.
I would imagine it is highly unlikely that a station like Canada Water would be rebuilt when there are so many other parts of the network that require access work.

A Bakerloo Line extension station at New Cross Gate would provide relief. Presumably the Elizabeth Line interchange at Whitechapel has presumably also done so.
 

Brubulus

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Yes they are busy. The Crystal Palace / East Croydon via Tulse Hill have some of the shortest trains - most are 6 cars long. Pre pandemic used to be 6 trains per hour in the peak with the bonus Sutton services of which one peak buster has been since reintroduced.
Is there any reason these trains couldn't be extended to 8 cars? (other than southern's lack of stock)
 

JonathanH

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Is there any reason these trains couldn't be extended to 8 cars? (other than southern's lack of stock)
No issues with using 8-car trains, although that is the limit at Beckenham Junction (and was also the limit at Caterham when they used to go there).

How many individual services are actually overloaded with 6-car operation? Let's bear in mind that the 377/3s are low density with regard to seating accommodation and it isn't unreasonable to expect people standing on what are relatively short journeys.
 
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NorthKent1989

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although I’ve been complaining about the Sydenham Corridor, one chronically overlooked route is the “Portsmouth” line through Dulwich. When waiting for the Victoria train at London Bridge, these services always seem like the busiest, behind the Epsom trains, of the Southern services from LB.

The LB-Sydenham-Vic trains are very busy but I wonder if this has to do with this now being the only LB service the Sydenham line has left? Would it be an even spread if they introduced a second LB service on the line?

The Epsom fasts are also very popular from my observations.
While I agree TL shouldn't have taken on that service, the problem SE have with taking it back is they may not have the rolling stock at the moment to make it possible. To make it work SE might have to reduce the lengths and/or frequency of services on other routes. If they order enough new trains though in their proposed tender they might be able to though.

Yes this is the problem and I don’t think any moves to remove the service from Thameslink back to SE will happen until new stock is found, this may be an outlandish idea but could the Electrostars not cover the Medway-Woolwich-London service? It’s not really a metro service in the true sense? But I guess if there is shortage on the mainline stock too were back where we’ve started.
 

brad465

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Yes this is the problem and I don’t think any moves to remove the service from Thameslink back to SE will happen until new stock is found, this may be an outlandish idea but could the Electrostars not cover the Medway-Woolwich-London service? It’s not really a metro service in the true sense? But I guess if there is shortage on the mainline stock too were back where we’ve started.
377s might be able to do it, however unless Southern are able to provide more without losing stock themselves, this would lead to Networkers having to go onto other routes, such that it's better off being Networker run. More 377s to Southeastern might be possible if Thameslink used the 700s on Rainham services to take over another Southern route. The problem with this is very few mainline Southern services exist out of London Bridge: they can't go to Uckfield for obvious reasons, Beckenham Jct, Victoria rounders and/or East Croydon stoppers might not be an effective use of resources, while Caterham & Tattenham Corner being a splitting service rules that out as well.

When 707s get toilets it might be possible to get them and Networkers to alternate on the services, if 707s are cleared into the Medway core (which probably isn't difficult to get if they're not yet cleared).
 

stssts1985

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One thought is whether the Rainham service could instead be diverted to Beckenham Junction or Orpington via Herne Hill to replace the existing SE peak hours only shuttle. Between 2008 and 18 it was a Thameslink route and was far busier then. Would also help with relieving the Sutton trains which are full at Herne Hill by 8am.
This would also have the benefit of 2tph which currently run London Bridge - Peckham Rye - Beckenham (which is bearly used east of Crystal P) to be either used;

to East Croydon giving a consistent 4tph into East Croydon
*OR* continue beyond crystal palace to west croydon via Norwood J
>> this would free up the current Victoria - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace to continue to London Bridge making a consistant 4tph on that route restoring 4tph into London Bridge. and also to Clapham Junction from stations like Sydenham (making a genuine east west south-london metro service)

Reigate Platform 3 was never funded, nor indeed did the plans ever make it to the point where it was actually considered for funding, as it was effectively wrapped up in the cancelled Croydon project. It seems improbable to ever happen.
What was the proposed changes at Croydon?

The old semi fast CX-Gillingham service should never have been made into a all stations Thameslink service.
I agree given performance and the complications that seem to have been so difficult to resolve to do with sensible gaps at stations like Greenwich.
Reigate seems a non starter for the Luton service given platform length at Reigate.
The original plan was Maidstone - what was the blocker there?
The other plan would be put the Luton services onto the slow lines at New Cross Gate through to East Croydon and terminate them at Caterham, more for platform space than demand on the Caterham Branch.

Could they also take Over Epsom services. Or East Grinstead all day just not in pe@ks?
 
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JonathanH

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What was the proposed changes at Croydon?
Eight platforms. Complete rebuild from East Croydon through to Windmill Bridge Junction at Selhurst to remove conflicts.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/our-work/our-routes/sussex/brighton-main-line-upgrade-proposals/
The long-term strategy to upgrade the Brighton Main Line and address bottlenecks was known as the Brighton Mainline Upgrade Programme. It included the following proposals:

The Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme (CARS)
– An expanded and enhanced East Croydon station.
– Remodelled track layout in the ‘Selhurst Triangle’ area.
– Reconstruction of Lower Addiscombe Road/Windmill Bridge to accommodate additional tracks.
– Norwood Junction station improvements.

Less substantial interventions on the Brighton line are being made instead of this project.

The other plan would be put the Luton services onto the slow lines at New Cross Gate through to East Croydon and terminate them at Caterham, more for platform space than demand on the Caterham Branch.
Running more trains on the slow lines south of East Croydon is not good. Running Thameslink services on the slow lines through Sydenham wasn't possible to timetable.
 
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stssts1985

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Running more trains on the slow lines south of East Croydon is not good. Running Thameslink services on the slow lines through Sydenham wasn't possible to timetable.
So before COVID you used to have the Peckham Rye - East Croydon trains turned around at Caterham. Was that unreliable?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Eight platforms. Complete rebuild from East Croydon through to Windmill Bridge Junction at Selhurst to remove conflicts.
Such a shame they didnt proceed with this! As well as performance on the main line, East Croydon does not have good connections onto the south london slow lines, balham for example!
 

Tester

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I was also wondering why southern don't operate more services up to Watford junctions - they are very well used even off peak. They used to run some peaktome Sheppard's bush terminators..I wonder if the issue is capacity north of willsden as believe they share this same lines as London Northwestern.
Sadly this is exactly it :frown:
 

SE%Traveller

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It's really 3-4 services anyway, as no-one would use end to end it from Victoria to Medway. Vic-Lewisham-Woolwich, a Crossrail feeder, Dartford fast and a Medway to Dartford local-ish.
Unless there's a rail strike and it's the only thing running!
The LB-Sydenham-Vic trains are very busy but I wonder if this has to do with this now being the only LB service the Sydenham line has left? Would it be an even spread if they introduced a second LB service on the line?

The Epsom fasts are also very popular from my observations.


Yes this is the problem and I don’t think any moves to remove the service from Thameslink back to SE will happen until new stock is found, this may be an outlandish idea but could the Electrostars not cover the Medway-Woolwich-London service? It’s not really a metro service in the true sense? But I guess if there is shortage on the mainline stock too were back where we’ve started.
Well if you ran Rainham to Luton via Bromley South instead of the Gillingham stopper then the latter stock could be used for the S-F via Woolwich and Blackheath. Diverting Thameslink via Bromley South might provide some use alternative destination Rochester and eastwards, Rochester to Farringdon direct would be about 1hr 8, compared with 1hr 24 on the existing and comparable if you changed at Abbeywood. You'd save 700 unit too.

the latter is assuming you ran it semi fast form Bromley South and ahead of the stopper....
 

NorthKent1989

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Well if you ran Rainham to Luton via Bromley South instead of the Gillingham stopper then the latter stock could be used for the S-F via Woolwich and Blackheath. Diverting Thameslink via Bromley South might provide some use alternative destination Rochester and eastwards, Rochester to Farringdon direct would be about 1hr 8, compared with 1hr 24 on the existing and comparable if you changed at Abbeywood. You'd save 700 unit too.

the latter is assuming you ran it semi fast form Bromley South and ahead of the stopper....

Yes this would work, also I’d have this Gillingham to Luton service run via Elephant & Castle.

I wonder if the CX to Maidstone/Ashford could be linked into the Luton semi fast?
 

NCT

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Wonder if this would make putting platforms on the South London Line at Brixton more straightforward, or if the property acquisition is for that express purpose ...
 

stssts1985

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Wonder if this would make putting platforms on the South London Line at Brixton more straightforward, or if the property acquisition is for that express purpose ...
Really hope so
Probably they read my original post in this chat and decided it was time to improve east west connections and build overground at Brixton
The SLL is very high at that point!
 

SE%Traveller

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Yes this would work, also I’d have this Gillingham to Luton service run via Elephant & Castle.

I wonder if the CX to Maidstone/Ashford could be linked into the Luton semi fast?
Yep via Elephant Castle was what I was thinking. It wouldn't cause a conflict at Blackfriars junction as the Rainham Luton's parallel move across that junction was 'twinned' with the Cambridge/ Maidstone which seems unlikely to run any time soon.

CHX Maidstone is on is on its original timing to London Bridge, it would need to run 10 minutes earlier and depart 10 mins later for it to work vis a vis Blackfriars. Presumably it would leave/ join the Thameslink Route where the Rainham's do currently so no issue there but then you'd have to thread it into the South Eastern & Chatham mains, not easy I'd have thought and Maidstone would loose its Charring Cross trains too, no idea how people down that way would feel about that....
 

hwl

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Really hope so
Probably they read my original post in this chat and decided it was time to improve east west connections and build overground at Brixton
The SLL is very high at that point!
From the article "A TfL spokesperson also confirmed to me that the purchase was a retail investment and that there are no current plans for redevelopment."
A very carefully worded statement, "assessing options" is of course very different from having "current plans"...
 

30907

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Really hope so
Probably they read my original post in this chat and decided it was time to improve east west connections and build overground at Brixton.
Sorry to disappoint, but that plot is barely 3 coach-lengths long and it would be challenging to fit even a 5-car platform there because of the overbridges - ISTR a suggestion upthread of building West of the Brixton Road which would be easier.
 

mr_jrt

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I don't see why the overbridges would be particularly challenging? A platform doesn't have to support a great deal of weight, after all. You're effectively building a raised walkway alongside (or cantilevered off) the viaduct. I make it the desired 100m from the westernmost edge of the building to the existing station, most of which is over empty space. Land ownership aside, the two primary obstacles are the top floor and tower of the lovely building housing Franco Manca, and the roof of the building on the other side at the same point. The former you could bridge over without really affecting the building itself, but the nice building with the tower would need a haircut on par with the Wheatsheaf pub at Borough Market's.

1762277342238.png
 

MarkyT

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I don't see why the overbridges would be particularly challenging? A platform doesn't have to support a great deal of weight, after all. You're effectively building a raised walkway alongside (or cantilevered off) the viaduct. I make it the desired 100m from the westernmost edge of the building to the existing station, most of which is over empty space. Land ownership aside, the two primary obstacles are the top floor and tower of the lovely building housing Franco Manca, and the roof of the building on the other side at the same point. The former you could bridge over without really affecting the building itself, but the nice building with the tower would need a haircut on par with the Wheatsheaf pub at Borough Market's.

View attachment 191716
Alternatively, ~100m platforms might extend to the west over Brixton Rd with a 'haircut' for the retail buildings immediately next to the railway on the other side, or more likely their full redevelopment, perhaps incorporating a second entrance or at least an emergency egress on the west side of the Brixton Rd.
 

stssts1985

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I thinks the best spot would be at the end of the lane between superdrug and m&s - dorrell place ... nursery lane. The viaducts are lower at this point, you could easily build an adjacent southeastern platform, creating a 4 Platform station and your directly above the Victoria lane platform at this point, meaning an escalator down would be possible for south London line ... Victoria line interchange.
 

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MarkyT

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Apart from the flyover, which by its nature has an incline to it.
Agreed. Looking here: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/linefiles/route/?ELR=ATL
Approx. 1 chain (20m) east of Brixton Road bridge is the crest of the hump. Gradients are 1:165 (+0.60%) from the east, -1:137 (-0.72%) from the west.
1762371687476.png
With the vertical curve transition between these gradients there may be a virtually flat section either side of the crest over a notional new ~100m platform length. Google Earth 3D photogrammetry suggests the high level line is effectively level for a distance over this section.
 

Mr. SW

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You can see the hump in Brixton on this pre-Overground video
watch from 6:00 and again at 30:00
 

stssts1985

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You can see the hump in Brixton on this pre-Overground video
watch from 6:00 and again at 30:00
7mins Where I believe a new station best to be built - just think how much the overground would be used to transfer people to Peckham/Denmark hill and ideally a high level Loughborough junction - with direct interchange with the Victoria line who's platforms are directly below here. Also replacing painful journeys to Clapham junction and Lewisham.
 

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