Potential South London improvement ideas?

[JonathanH]

The South Bermondsey service isn’t half hourly?

Sorry, yes, oops, quarter hourly - half hourly to each of East Croydon and Beckenham Junction.

 

[NorthKent1989]

During Covid around 2020, I got on a train that was a London Bridge-Tulse Hill-Sydenham-London Bridge service

It wasn’t advertised as such, it was advertised in both directions as terminating at Crystal Palace but would become a Tulse Hill or Sydenham service back to London Bridge which I thought was a handy service.

 

[30907]

During Covid around 2020, I got on a train that was a London Bridge-Tulse Hill-Sydenham-London Bridge service.

A very traditional route - abbreviated to TCF/FCT internally. It swapped destinations with Victoria-Beckenham Jn decades ago, and I suspect Sydenham to Balham is a more useful flow to cater for.

BTW: LBG-Tulse Hill-VIC was a traditional route too, but became peak hours only and from 1967 a "parliamentary."

 

[NorthKent1989]

A very traditional route - abbreviated to TCF/FCT internally. It swapped destinations with Victoria-Beckenham Jn decades ago, and I suspect Sydenham to Balham is a more useful flow to cater for.

BTW: LBG-Tulse Hill-VIC was a traditional route too, but became peak hours only and from 1967 a "parliamentary."

Ah interesting, I do recall that the Beckenhams used to run to Victoria at one time.

Routing it via Sydenham to LB makes sense, I’d also imagine the factor behind the change was that Beckenham had faster journeys to Victoria, even with the stopper via Penge East I imagine it was faster than the route via Balham

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Ah interesting, I do recall that the Beckenhams used to run to Victoria at one time.

Routing it via Sydenham to LB makes sense, I’d also imagine the factor behind the change was that Beckham had faster journeys to Victoria, even with the stopper via Penge East I imagine it was faster than the route via Balham

Yes I vaguely remember Connex yellow 455s as a child going to Beckenham Junction and Tattenham Corner from Balham

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes I vaguely remember Connex yellow 455s as a child going to Beckenham Junction and Tattenham Corner from Balham

Aren’t there still Tattenhams from Victoria or did that go in the 2018 TT change?

Amazing how many services used to exist back in the early days of privatisation in the 90s and 00s that no longer exist

 

[JonathanH]

Aren’t there still Tattenhams from Victoria or did that go in the 2018 TT change?

No. Caterham and Tattenham Corner are no longer served from Victoria in any way (other than Tattenham Corner on the first Saturday in June). In the 2018 timetable change, there were peak services from Victoria that ran Clapham Junction, East Croydon then all stations splitting at Purley, but since the changes in passenger demand since 2020 these no longer run.

 

[Brubulus]

The issue with this service is that the only group it attracts are Dulwich and Tulse Hill to Victoria/Clapham Junction. A better bet would be a service that links SE London and Clapham Junction, which would be a great Overground route, and while running it via Tulse Hill would increase the area served and provide a new service, it would come at a substantial time penalty of 8-10 mins.

 

[JonathanH]

A better bet would be a service that links SE London and Clapham Junction, which would be a great Overground route, and while running it via Tulse Hill would increase the area served and provide a new service, it would come at a substantial time penalty of 8-10 mins.

There is no link at Peckham Rye between the Lewisham line and the Tulse Hill line. Perhaps there is just enough room for one between the platforms and the junction for Tulse Hill but looks a little tight, and passengers can already just change trains.

Victoria - Streatham Hill - Tulse Hill - Lewisham is an interesting idea though.

 

[cle]

It would take a lot longer than via Denmark Hill! But the SE<>SW connection is interesting.

One of the problems with Tulse Hill is presumably the need to leave space in the timetable for Thameslink weekend diversions at 6tph, then at Peckham Rye the interaction with London Overground, and finally line and platform capacity at London Bridge.

Isn't line 11 at London Bridge through to Spa Road Junction effectively operated as a single line for most of the day dedicated to the quarter hourly service to and from South Bermondsey?

I had thought this was planned to increase (possibly doing a Sutton loop service to Blackfriars) - I remember having 6tph to Peckham Rye as an aspiration once.

 

[stssts1985]

The South Bermondsey service isn’t half hourly?

I think it's every 15 restored to pre COVID although the previous Caterham now terminates at east Croydon. I've always felt the Beckenham junction is missing something - I've always seen it barely used and the half hourly frequency means it's difficult to rely on for east west journeys.

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better bet would be a service that links SE London and Clapham Junction, which would be a great Overground route, and

I've said this time and again - an overground Lewisham to Clapham junction with a connection at Loughborough junction and a re-sited Brixton station to nursery lane (behind m&s) with adjacent southeastern and a victoria line connection. Would transform south London east to west

 

[Turtle]

I think it's every 15 restored to pre COVID although the previous Caterham now terminates at east Croydon. I've always felt the Beckenham junction is missing something - I've always seen it barely used and the half hourly frequency means it's difficult to rely on for east west journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2025 ==


I've said this time and again - an overground Lewisham to Clapham junction with a connection at Loughborough junction and a re-sited Brixton station to nursery lane (behind m&s) with adjacent southeastern and a victoria line connection. Would transform south London east to west

Too true. I only realised how bad the connection was when I moved from Clapham to Blackheath.

 

[NorthKent1989]

An interesting article from From The Murky Depths regarding the Rainham Thameslink service

Time to scrap unreliable Thameslink from the Woolwich line? - Murky Depths

Is it time to ditch the late addition of Thameslink to the Greenwich and Woolich line due to just too many compromises on Southeastern

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

A few comments are against removing but fail to see how services have gotten bad and slow along the Woolwich and Greenwich lines since 2018, what SE needs to do is restore the full 8tph between Slade Green and Charlton, thereby 6tph via Greenwich, 2tph via Blackheath

Another points is that the Thameslink is paralleled by faster alternatives to get to the core.

 

[cle]

Yes those are probably the infrequent travellers (old / leisure?) who might have used it once for a train at KXSP or Luton flight... and yes it's handy for that use.

But for the majority, who want the uniform metro frequency into Central London, it's a mess. Abbey Wood should also be fed by at least 4tph east of Dartford, and probably 2tph more from there. And all into Cannon St - keep it simple. Greenwich and Deptford have also seen a ton of growth and need their even 6tph. Probably more in time.

 

[stssts1985]

And all into Cannon St - keep it simple. Greenwich and Deptford have also seen a ton of growth and need their even 6tph. Probably more in time.

I agree that keeping it simple is important, right across southern and southeastern you have disperate pairs of connections, 2tph going to this place or that place, and the next 2tph going to another - this doesn't create a predictable metro system needed in an urban area to tempt people out of cars and leaves us with a commuter railway who's function is to get people into London in the morning and out in the evening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==

I live in Brixton and have always been frustrated that there’s no stop here on either the Overground (South London line) or Southeastern’s Victoria–Dartford via Lewisham route.


I know the South London line tracks are high and curved, and building anything over the main road or on top of the existing Southeastern platforms (Victoria–Orpington) would be very difficult. But there is a practical option:

• Build four new platformson relatively low viaducts behind M&S:
  • 2 on the South London line (Overground)
  • 2 relocated platforms on the Chatham Main Line (Victoria–Orpington)
• The site could use the lane between M&S and Superdrug (Dorrell Place), with the station footprint sitting on Nursery Road.
• This would allow a central interchange (similar to Peckham Rye), and potentially even an escalator connection down to the Victoria line (which runs directly beneath at that point, near the opposite end of the existing escalators for good passenger flow).

The land is currently light industrial/scrapyard/arches, so redevelopment is realistic.


Service pattern (if built):

• 4 tph Overground to Clapham Junction
• 4 tph Overground to Canada Water and beyond (avoiding Zone 1)
• 4 tph Southeastern to Bromley South / Orpington (relocated platforms)
• 2 tph Southeastern to Lewisham, Blackheath, Dartford
• 6 tph Southeastern to Victoria only (2 more than current, however less useful given the Victoria line)

In the longer term, I’d love to see a 4 tph Overground Clapham Junction–Lewisham service, though I know that would need resignalling to avoid conflicting moves at Peckham Rye.

I would not propose that Fast services on the Chatham Mainline or Semi-fast services via Denmark hill to Gillingham would call here, same as they don't call now.


Overall, I think this would be heavily used, provide lots of direct new journey opportunities, and create a very useful interchange between the Victoria line, Southeastern, and the Overground.

If I go back to the original post on this chat improving Brixton, having recently been in Catford and Lewisham of an evening and trying to get home (going via London bridge - rail tube and bus is so expensive given
the fare structure) and there are no nice options! Id also like to see high level platforms at Loughborough Junction and Brockley to
produce some fantastic opportunities for east west travel and tempt people out their cars making cross-south London journeys.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The old semi fast CX-Gillingham service should never have been made into a all stations Thameslink service.

The old service was similar to the CX to Tunbridge Wells service, Marylebone to Aylesbury line, London, Tilbury & Southend line and the Waterloo to Windsor/Reading line, In that it was a middle distance, 2tph outer surburban/inter urban service, too infrequent to be a metro service and not quite far enough to be considered a mainline service, calling at key/major London suburban stations

The Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup routes could be neatly formed of 6tph while the Blackheath/Woolwich route was and will only ever be 2tph.

It was obvious that the Rainham was a a very late in the day addition, I would be interested in seeing what was planned for the Dartford routes before they decided to shove the Thameslink service through Greenwich into Medway.

 

[Zomboid]

Given that huge sums of money were spent on the Bermondsey dive under with the aim of eliminating flat crossing moves between London Bridge and the New Cross area, putting the Rainham train in which has to cross the Cannon St lines on the flat feels like a less than ideal addition.

I suppose those trains through the TL core have to go somewhere, and Rainham was probably identified as a least worst option, but it's still not a good one. No idea where they could go instead, though.

 

[PGAT]

Given that huge sums of money were spent on the Bermondsey dive under with the aim of eliminating flat crossing moves between London Bridge and the New Cross area, putting the Rainham train in which has to cross the Cannon St lines on the flat feels like a less than ideal addition.

I suppose those trains through the TL core have to go somewhere, and Rainham was probably identified as a least worst option, but it's still not a good one. No idea where they could go instead, though.

They were supposed to go via the BML but capacity around Windmill Bridge Junction meant they switched it to Rainham last minute. In a post covid world with less services running this should probably be reviewed

 

[JonathanH]

They were supposed to go via the BML but capacity around Windmill Bridge Junction meant they switched it to Rainham last minute. In a post covid world with less services running this should probably be reviewed

Tattenham Corner isn't necessarily a better place for these trains to run to, given the Caterham / Tattenham Corner splitting train seems to be an efficient way of providing this service. Having got to a point where the Croydon to Purley stretch has less congestion, it would be a negative move to introduce more services.

 

[cle]

I agree that keeping it simple is important, right across southern and southeastern you have disperate pairs of connections, 2tph going to this place or that place, and the next 2tph going to another - this doesn't create a predictable metro system needed in an urban area to tempt people out of cars and leaves us with a commuter railway who's function is to get people into London in the morning and out in the evening.

100%. There will be moans (who likes change) - but these commuters do also get London Bridge as well as Cannon St. That's more than many (eg Marylebone or Paddington people) - and plenty is walkable from those stations as well as onward links.

There are copious DLR links throughout these lines too!

Given that huge sums of money were spent on the Bermondsey dive under with the aim of eliminating flat crossing moves between London Bridge and the New Cross area, putting the Rainham train in which has to cross the Cannon St lines on the flat feels like a less than ideal addition.

I suppose those trains through the TL core have to go somewhere, and Rainham was probably identified as a least worst option, but it's still not a good one. No idea where they could go instead, though.

Yes this is absurd. No point removing conflicts and then adding them. It's hard to find a home but seemingly the LB-Epsom semi-fast aligns best with timings and nature of the route. It's not a net new add to Windmill either. Hopefully it could call at New Cross Gate one day.

The Catford Loop (Bellingham sidings) is another place that could possibly take 2tph more, it would be busier along there but still less than the Herne Hill route (if we had to home an 8 car service)

Tattenham Corner isn't necessarily a better place for these trains to run to, given the Caterham / Tattenham Corner splitting train seems to be an efficient way of providing this service. Having got to a point where the Croydon to Purley stretch has less congestion, it would be a negative move to introduce more services.

Tat/Cat lines are so sparsely used, they don't need more service really. The Tat especially could comfortably become a shuttle to Purley, and I question its viability overall, if you look at the ridership. 7 stations total, not even 1m between them. It's a lot of track and station for the usage - and plenty of alt options. I bet it'd simplify things a lot.

TL trains are fixeds so splitting wouldn't work either. The Reigate p3 idea, if that could ever be funded, did seem genuinely additive. Purley, Coulsdon South and Redhill could all do with a metro service - each sees much more than the entire Tattenham line.

 

[MarkyT]

Given that huge sums of money were spent on the Bermondsey dive under with the aim of eliminating flat crossing moves between London Bridge and the New Cross area, putting the Rainham train in which has to cross the Cannon St lines on the flat feels like a less than ideal addition.

I suppose those trains through the TL core have to go somewhere, and Rainham was probably identified as a least worst option, but it's still not a good one. No idea where they could go instead, though.

The layout was specifically designed to enable moves between the Thameslink pair and the Greenwich line.

The Open Train Times view below shows a pair of Rainham trains crossing around the flyover area earlier. The down one popped off the last down berth 2445 to North Kent East Jn just as I was taking the screenshot. There's little conflict as the flyover provides grade separation for the Thameslink pair and the route onto the Greeenwich line weaves across via two separate junctions separated by signals, not requiring a complete path locked across the entire layout at one time. Routing an out of path service across the junctions is likely fairly easy without too much knock on delay for other services.

Staying on the SEML slows through New Cross may have involved a little less conflict at Surrey Canal and North Kent East Junctions but overall traffic levels made that unviable I understand.

 

[Jaydubya]

One thought is whether the Rainham service could instead be diverted to Beckenham Junction or Orpington via Herne Hill to replace the existing SE peak hours only shuttle. Between 2008 and 18 it was a Thameslink route and was far busier then. Would also help with relieving the Sutton trains which are full at Herne Hill by 8am.

It’s possible that this is a non starter as Southeastern need to continue to operate this shuttle to maintain driver knowledge for weekend diversions away from Victoria.

 

[JonathanH]

The Reigate p3 idea, if that could ever be funded, did seem genuinely additive.

It wasn't portrayed as additive. The main benefit was the ability to remove splitting of Victoria trains at Redhill, and reconnect Reigate to London Bridge, saving one class 700 unit.

The point about not overloading the slow lines between Windmill Bridge and Purley applies as much to not increasing Redhill line trains as not increasing those to the other destinations fed by those lines.

 

[NorthKent1989]

One thought is whether the Rainham service could instead be diverted to Beckenham Junction or Orpington via Herne Hill to replace the existing SE peak hours only shuttle. Between 2008 and 18 it was a Thameslink route and was far busier then. Would also help with relieving the Sutton trains which are full at Herne Hill by 8am.

The Beckenham to Bedford peaks were very popular I recall as well, I used them briefly before I left the Sydenham area, if I’m not mistaken I’m sure they were introduced in 2006 when FCC took over?

If the Gillingham semi fast returns I always thought Victoria would be a good place to run it from if Charing Cross wasn’t an option.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Slight variation on the same theme would be to divert the current Luton train to Sevenoaks and the current the Peak Welwyn Services to Beckenham Junction instead

Combined with the Orpington trains that would leave an even 15 minutes Bromley South to Luton Service peaks (and hopefully off peak too if they reinstated the Orpington to all day (accepting that they wouldn’t go further north than Kentish Town)

It would appear to be consistent with the current timetable (and indeed on Sunday the Sevenoaks Service comes into Blackfriars concurrent with the Rainham train). Presumabley the Welwyn drives would have the route knowledge too, Beckenham J being the diversionary route.

It has the added benefit that the Gillingham train can go ahead of the Sevenoaks trains at Bromley South and save 8 minutes on the current journey tine too (again like it does on suynday now…

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The Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup routes could be neatly formed of 6tph while the Blackheath/Woolwich route was and will only ever be 2tph.

if this was the one to Victoria it would provide not only 4 tph on the Lew-Vic line route as well as provide easy access to Clapham Junction with a same platform change at Denmark Hill.

it currently arrives at Lewisham 15m after the current Victoria Train too...

 

[izvor]

It wasn't portrayed as additive. The main benefit was the ability to remove splitting of Victoria trains at Redhill, and reconnect Reigate to London Bridge, saving one class 700 unit.

Seemed a lot of expenditure just for this {Reigate P3}. Has it now been defunded?

 

[JonathanH]

Seemed a lot of expenditure just for this {Reigate P3}. Has it now been defunded?

Reigate Platform 3 was never funded, nor indeed did the plans ever make it to the point where it was actually considered for funding, as it was effectively wrapped up in the cancelled Croydon project. It seems improbable to ever happen.

 

[cle]

Slight variation on the same theme would be to divert the current Luton train to Sevenoaks and the current the Peak Welwyn Services to Beckenham Junction instead

Combined with the Orpington trains that would leave an even 15 minutes Bromley South to Luton Service peaks (and hopefully off peak too if they reinstated the Orpington to all day (accepting that they wouldn’t go further north than Kentish Town)

It would appear to be consistent with the current timetable (and indeed on Sunday the Sevenoaks Service comes into Blackfriars concurrent with the Rainham train). Presumabley the Welwyn drives would have the route knowledge too, Beckenham J being the diversionary route.

It has the added benefit that the Gillingham train can go ahead of the Sevenoaks trains at Bromley South and save 8 minutes on the current journey tine too (again like it does on suynday now…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==


if this was the one to Victoria it would provide not only 4 tph on the Lew-Vic line route as well as provide easy access to Clapham Junction with a same platform change at Denmark Hill.

it currently arrives at Lewisham 15m after the current Victoria Train too...

It's really 3-4 services anyway, as no-one would use end to end it from Victoria to Medway. Vic-Lewisham-Woolwich, a Crossrail feeder, Dartford fast and a Medway to Dartford local-ish.

 

[NorthKent1989]

if this was the one to Victoria it would provide not only 4 tph on the Lew-Vic line route as well as provide easy access to Clapham Junction with a same platform change at Denmark Hill.

it currently arrives at Lewisham 15m after the current Victoria Train too...

In this scenario the Vic-Woolwich-Medway would call only at Denmark Hill for this reason alone, and leave Peckham and Nunhead to the stoppers, Denmark Hill is a hub now and shouldn’t be skipped.

It's really 3-4 services anyway, as no-one would use end to end it from Victoria to Medway. Vic-Lewisham-Woolwich, a Crossrail feeder, Dartford fast and a Medway to Dartford local-ish.

These sort of services would be handy, Vic to Medway flow is covered by the Bromley fasts, in this scenario, it would be semi fast between Dartford and Gravesend calling only at Greenhithe, and the stations between can be served by a CST-Greenwich-Woolwich-Gravesend metro stopper to maintain those stations connection to Abbey Wood for the Liz

 

[izvor]

Reigate Platform 3 was never funded, nor indeed did the plans ever make it to the point where it was actually considered for funding, as it was effectively wrapped up in the cancelled Croydon project. It seems improbable to ever happen.

Thanks. Both these projects seemed to me to be inordinately extravagant.