Potential rolling stock of TEE 2.0

[StephenHunter]

Loco-hauled, I guess?

 

[Stephen Lee]

Loco-hauled, I guess?

like Railjet

 

[Austriantrain]

Regarding the front facing seats, I can think of a few things why they want to impose these:

1 - The TEE 2.0 is meant to replace several air links within Europe, and a lot of those passenger will be used to the experience of riding a plane, which has all the seats facing forward;
2 - The original, all first class, service had front facing seats as a standard because that was a differentiating characteristic of the service, and they may want to re-implement it in the newer network for the same reason;
3 - Passengers generally don't like facing backwards, and it's believed that facing backwards is more nauseating (see Motion Sickness in Automated Vehicles with Forward and Rearward Facing Seating Orientations | researchgate.net);
4 - Rotating seats also allow passengers to modify the layout as they please. A group of friends, or a family, can change freely the layout to face seats against each other, if given the possibility;

They also have disadvantages as well like:

1 - Being far more expensive and complex;
2 - Requiring extra maintenance and care;
3 - Adds another failure point to the service;
4 - Makes it harder to work the ergonomics out, since you have to study a dynamic position;
5 - The layout needs to account for the space required for the seat rotation.

What you could do of course is have trains with switchable seats, using them unidirectionally on runs where direction is not changed, and in a more classic layout where, en-route, the train changes direction.

I am not sure passengers would approve though - 2- and 4-seat bays are very popular in some countries. Of course, you could still offer all of it, provided these switchable seats leave enough leg-room in all these combinations (without reducing capacity!). Really not sure it is worth it.

In any case, this is probably the least important question about TEE 2.0.

 

[StephenHunter]

like Railjet

You'd need to get a Vectron cleared for all those countries though.

 

[Stephen Lee]

For each of the daytime routes, I wondered what is the suitable rolling stock for it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==

You'd need to get a Vectron cleared for all those countries though.

or Taurus

 

[BahrainLad]

The TGV Oceane has reversible seats in First Class I understand.

 

[biko]

For each of the daytime routes, I wondered what is the suitable rolling stock for it

Probably only a relevant question for the routes which are planned to start in the near future. For the longer term aspirations new rolling stock can be ordered and designed with the right specs.

I would guess the following for the routes planned to start in the near future:

TEE 1/2: ICE stock (needs clearance for Poland I guess)
TEE 5/6: Some TGVs are cleared for Spain and others for Germany, so I guess it needs clearing in one country or another. Or maybe clearing ICEs in Spain, but that means they go very far from 'home'. I don't know if both types of TGV can handle all required voltages, but in any case it needs fitting with some systems.
TEE 7/8: Thalys sets already go to the south of France, so clearing those for Spain seems easiest. I think technically they are capable of running on the Spanish HSLs. Although Murcia is not yet connected to the HSL, so doesn't seem possible in the short-term.
TEE 17/18: Some Swiss stock will do, not sure about it
TEE 23/24: Loco-hauled I guess
TEE 25/26 + 27/28: Railjet
TEE 29/30: Easiest on the short term would be something loco-hauled, I don't think any high-speed trains are suitable for the route
TEE 31/32: No idea if Railjets or ICE can go to Slovenia and Croatia
TEE 33/34: Railjet (I believe these already run)
TEE 35/36: Maybe some type of TGV (can run in all three countries, but probably different subtypes)
TEE 37/38: Something loco-hauled as it used to be when it was an EC. No need for high-speed trains.
TEE 41/42 + 45/46: No idea, I don't know enough about Eastern Europe
TEE 59/60: Existing Eurostar service
TEE 61/62: Existing Thalys service

My conclusion is that 'near future' seems a bit overoptimistic as that would mean the railway companies should already be busy with adapting trains and clearing them. The loco-hauled ones are relatively easy to set up as you can switch locos at the border.

 

[Stephen Lee]

View attachment 96779View attachment 96780View attachment 96781

For each of the daytime routes, I wondered what is the suitable rolling stock for it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==


or Taurus

Also I wondered if some routes will be awarded to open-access operators, such as Eurostar/LEO Express/Italo or those Open-access operators will start-up to compete......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==

Probably only a relevant question for the routes which are planned to start in the near future. For the longer term aspirations new rolling stock can be ordered and designed with the right specs.

I would guess the following for the routes planned to start in the near future:

TEE 1/2: ICE stock (needs clearance for Poland I guess)
TEE 5/6: Some TGVs are cleared for Spain and others for Germany, so I guess it needs clearing in one country or another. Or maybe clearing ICEs in Spain, but that means they go very far from 'home'. I don't know if both types of TGV can handle all required voltages, but in any case it needs fitting with some systems.
TEE 7/8: Thalys sets already go to the south of France, so clearing those for Spain seems easiest. I think technically they are capable of running on the Spanish HSLs. Although Murcia is not yet connected to the HSL, so doesn't seem possible in the short-term.
TEE 17/18: Some Swiss stock will do, not sure about it
TEE 23/24: Loco-hauled I guess
TEE 25/26 + 27/28: Railjet
TEE 29/30: Easiest on the short term would be something loco-hauled, I don't think any high-speed trains are suitable for the route
TEE 31/32: No idea if Railjets or ICE can go to Slovenia and Croatia
TEE 33/34: Railjet (I believe these already run)
TEE 35/36: Maybe some type of TGV (can run in all three countries, but probably different subtypes)
TEE 37/38: Something loco-hauled as it used to be when it was an EC. No need for high-speed trains.
TEE 41/42 + 45/46: No idea, I don't know enough about Eastern Europe
TEE 59/60: Existing Eurostar service
TEE 61/62: Existing Thalys service

My conclusion is that 'near future' seems a bit overoptimistic as that would mean the railway companies should already be busy with adapting trains and clearing them. The loco-hauled ones are relatively easy to set up as you can switch locos at the border.

Probably I think TEE 29/30: maybe Pendolino/EC250 with clearance to France/Benelux?


TEE 3/4: ICE Stock/Pendolino/EC250/ETR1000
TEE 9/10: ICE/Railjet/ETR1000
TEE 11/12:TGV/ICE with clearance to Austria/Hungary
TEE 13/14:ICE
TEE 15/16: ICE
TEE 19/20:X2000
TEE 21/22: ETR1000/Railjet?
TEE 39/40: TGV/ICE with clearance to Czech Republic?
TEE 43/44: No idea
TEE 41/42 + 45/46: maybe loco-hauled or seek for ED250 further clearance
TEE 47/48: Pendolino/EC250
TEE 49/50: ECx
TEE 51/52: Railjet with clearance to NL?
TEE 53/54: ECx
TEE 55/56: ICE/AVE
TEE 57/58: ECx

 

[DanielB]

TEE 5/6: Some TGVs are cleared for Spain and others for Germany, so I guess it needs clearing in one country or another. Or maybe clearing ICEs in Spain, but that means they go very far from 'home'. I don't know if both types of TGV can handle all required voltages, but in any case it needs fitting with some systems.
TEE 7/8: Thalys sets already go to the south of France, so clearing those for Spain seems easiest. I think technically they are capable of running on the Spanish HSLs. Although Murcia is not yet connected to the HSL, so doesn't seem possible in the short-term.

Isn't the broad gauge in Spain a problem for these services, or would these routes be possible whilst staying at standard gauge tracks?

For ICE3/4: I've read the overhaul of the ICE3M stock (BR406) was stopped after completion of the first one, mainly due to their outdated systems for running under multiple voltages. The sets are due to go out of service around 2025 and likely to be replaced by ICE3neo (BR408). That should be a good match with the mid-2020s as starting point for the route through to Italy as new stock is needed anyway.

 

[biko]

Isn't the broad gauge in Spain a problem for these services, or would these routes be possible whilst staying at standard gauge tracks?

With respect to Murcia, it won't be if the HSL has been finished, but that will apparently be somewhere in the next few years. Malaga already has a direct HSL connection. The HSLs in Spain are fully normal gauge so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Probably only a relevant question for the routes which are planned to start in the near future. For the longer term aspirations new rolling stock can be ordered and designed with the right specs.

I would guess the following for the routes planned to start in the near future:

TEE 1/2: ICE stock (needs clearance for Poland I guess)
TEE 5/6: Some TGVs are cleared for Spain and others for Germany, so I guess it needs clearing in one country or another. Or maybe clearing ICEs in Spain, but that means they go very far from 'home'. I don't know if both types of TGV can handle all required voltages, but in any case it needs fitting with some systems.
TEE 7/8: Thalys sets already go to the south of France, so clearing those for Spain seems easiest. I think technically they are capable of running on the Spanish HSLs. Although Murcia is not yet connected to the HSL, so doesn't seem possible in the short-term.
TEE 17/18: Some Swiss stock will do, not sure about it
TEE 23/24: Loco-hauled I guess
TEE 25/26 + 27/28: Railjet
TEE 29/30: Easiest on the short term would be something loco-hauled, I don't think any high-speed trains are suitable for the route
TEE 31/32: No idea if Railjets or ICE can go to Slovenia and Croatia
TEE 33/34: Railjet (I believe these already run)
TEE 35/36: Maybe some type of TGV (can run in all three countries, but probably different subtypes)
TEE 37/38: Something loco-hauled as it used to be when it was an EC. No need for high-speed trains.
TEE 41/42 + 45/46: No idea, I don't know enough about Eastern Europe
TEE 59/60: Existing Eurostar service
TEE 61/62: Existing Thalys service

My conclusion is that 'near future' seems a bit overoptimistic as that would mean the railway companies should already be busy with adapting trains and clearing them. The loco-hauled ones are relatively easy to set up as you can switch locos at the border.

Is it possible that TEE 37/38 start-up a branch which goes through LGV Interconnexion Est using ETR610/EC250?

 

[biko]

Is it possible that TEE 37/38 start-up a branch which goes through LGV Interconnexion Est using ETR610/EC250?

Doesn’t seem likely in the short term. All of the route in Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland is on conventional tracks. It would be very expensive to run high speed trains without long stretches where they can reach high speeds. And that’s before even considering that those trains are not cleared for France, Belgium and Luxembourg.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Also I wondered if some routes will be awarded to open-access operators, such as Eurostar/LEO Express/Italo or those Open-access operators will start-up to compete......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2021 ==


Probably I think TEE 29/30: maybe Pendolino/EC250 with clearance to France/Benelux?


TEE 3/4: ICE Stock/Pendolino/EC250/ETR1000
TEE 9/10: ICE/Railjet/ETR1000
TEE 11/12:TGV/ICE with clearance to Austria/Hungary
TEE 13/14:ICE
TEE 15/16: ICE
TEE 19/20:X2000
TEE 21/22: ETR1000/Railjet?
TEE 39/40: TGV/ICE with clearance to Czech Republic?
TEE 43/44: No idea
TEE 41/42 + 45/46: maybe loco-hauled or seek for ED250 further clearance
TEE 47/48: Pendolino/EC250
TEE 49/50: ECx
TEE 51/52: Railjet with clearance to NL?
TEE 53/54: ECx
TEE 55/56: ICE/AVE
TEE 57/58: ECx

For TEE 19/20, I wondered if an extra 50 DSB Alstom Coradia can be ordered with 15kV pantograph and clearance to Sweden/Norway is possible for it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

A quote from IRJ

• Paris – Brussels – Copenhagen – Malmö
• Paris – Tours – Bordeaux – Madrid
• Paris – Perpignan – Barcelona
• Bordeaux – Barcelona
• Metz – Strasbourg/Zürich – Montpellier – Perpignan – Barcelona
• Paris/Brussels – Berlin/Vienna
• Paris – Dijon – Milan – Venice
• Paris – Dijon – Milan – Florence – Rome
• Paris – Bayonne – Donostia as a portion of the Tarbes service
• extending the Paris – Nice service to Ventimiglia in the summer,
• and a winter ski service from Brussels to Bourg Saint Maurice.

wondered if they have enough sleeping coaches.......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

You'd need to get a Vectron cleared for all those countries though.

Are 1293s being approved for passenger services anyway

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==