Potential rolling stock of TEE 2.0

[Stephen Lee]

it was mentioned "Use of existing rolling stock for short-term launch of the TEE network", does it mean Tailor-made trains will be produced? Or existing ICE/TGV trains will be deployed?

 

[StephenHunter]

The latter for the day services with loco-hauled stuff for the sleepers (See Page 60 onwards)

 

[biko]

To me it reads as existing trains will be deployed, especially as many proposed routes are combinations of existing ones.

 

[StephenHunter]

Updated concept released today

They also want to add the Eurostar London-Amsterdam service to it.

 

[Giugiaro]

What the hell is the EuroNight Nº 43/44 doing there?

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm not sure what your question means.

 

[30907]

What the hell is the EuroNight Nº 43/44 doing there?

(For those who don't have train numbers memorised, that's the Madrid-Lisbon sleeper - or rather, it was pre-Covid!)
Answer: it connects neatly with the suggested Hamburg-Madrid TEE.
In practice, a Hendaye/San Sebastian-Lisbon is less unlikely to survive and would save a considerable double-back in Spain.

Alternative answer: it means Portugal is on the TEE map (several other countries seem to have been added, so there may be an element of truth...)

 

[Austriantrain]

To me it reads as existing trains will be deployed, especially as many proposed routes are combinations of existing ones.

I think that it the gist of it: Combine existing national routes to offer more international trains, which actually already happens up to a point in countries where Takt systems are the norm (and is also a lot easier to implement between these countries).

With very few exceptions, such as Paris - Brussels or Paris - London, it is also the only realistic way forward. There are not that many city pairs in Europe which have both a huge population to serve (or other traffic-inducing factors such as EU traffic to Brussels) *and* such a high-quality rail connection as to make any competing transport mode (car, plane) largely irrelevant.

All other routes need to build their user-base by combining national and international traffic and several traffic flows on one train service, especially if a regular service is to be offered and not a single token daily service (which might me okay for very far-flung routes, but not on shorter-distance routes, where you need frequency to be competitive).

 

[Stephen Lee]

Updated concept released today

They also want to add the Eurostar London-Amsterdam service to it.

how come more routes are proposed......

 

[30907]

how come more routes are proposed......

It is decribed in the linked report "as Stage 3 additional lines in C and E Europe"

 

[jamesontheroad]

Also, why (page 23) is it a requirement of any rolling stock that all the seats face the direction of travel?

This, in particular, reads as though it is fulfilling the wishes of individual parliamentarians or lobbyists...

 

[gordonthemoron]

Also, why (page 23) is it a requirement of any rolling stock that all the seats face the direction of travel?

This, in particular, reads as though it is fulfilling the wishes of individual parliamentarians or lobbyists...

They'd either have to be like the TEEs of the 1980s (good) or NSW trains (not so good)

 

[Austriantrain]

Also, why (page 23) is it a requirement of any rolling stock that all the seats face the direction of travel?

Farcical. Almost every long-distance train through Germany will change its direction of travel at least once, most probably in Frankfurt (or Munich, or maybe after reaching Switzerland in Basel).

 

[XAM2175]

NSW trains (not so good)

The rotating-seat-set concept employed on the XPT and Xplorer sets isn't too bad, especially since it means that the seats can't be too close to the walls. The flip-over backs used on the ex-CityRail fleet are indeed quite dire, though

 

[30907]

Farcical. Almost every long-distance train through Germany will change its direction of travel at least once, most probably in Frankfurt (or Munich, or maybe after reaching Switzerland in Basel).

I recall NSB coaches where the seat pairs were rotated en route - that seemed to work, as the coaches were very spacious but the flop-over seats on the CP ex RENFE DMUs leave you with unusable seats.

 

[Stephen Lee]

even Talgo/RailJet/Pendolino is being mentioned

 

[Austriantrain]

I recall NSB coaches where the seat pairs were rotated en route - that seemed to work, as the coaches were very spacious but the flop-over seats on the CP ex RENFE DMUs leave you with unusable seats.

I cannot imagine how this could be done when changing directions on a 5-minute-stop at Frankfurt in a full train with hundreds of passengers and lots of luggage. A lot of inconvenience too for passengers.

Besides, at least in Central Europe, we are used to traveling „the wrong way round“. I cannot understand why the Germans are making a fuss of it in their TEE plans, when it happens everyday in Germany for half of the passengers on a train.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm reminded of the trams on the Isle of Man....

 

[Stephen Lee]

wondered why CD Class 680 is no longer having rev. service to Austria.......

 

[Aictos]

I'm reminded of the trams on the Isle of Man....

I'm reminded of the old Blackpool trams that you simply push the back of the seat in whatever direction you wanted to be facing....

 

[XAM2175]

I cannot imagine how this could be done when changing directions on a 5-minute-stop at Frankfurt in a full train with hundreds of passengers and lots of luggage. A lot of inconvenience too for passengers.

Oh yes, it's one thing to reverse all the seats at a terminus where the train is being cleaned and serviced and all that, but another entirely to try to do it in service.

 

[Austriantrain]

wondered why CD Class 680 is no longer having rev. service to Austria.......

I am not up to date. They used to run on the Vienna - Poland trains, but these have been reduced and even cancelled due to Covid. I would suppose the 680 will return to Austria when these trains do.

 

[30907]

I cannot imagine how this could be done when changing directions on a 5-minute-stop at Frankfurt in a full train with hundreds of passengers and lots of luggage. A lot of inconvenience too for passengers.

IIRC you did it yourself - or not - but this was 1981...
Agree it's pretty pointless.

 

[Austriantrain]

IIRC you did it yourself - or not - but this was 1981...

What exactly do you mean?

 

[30907]

What exactly do you mean?

You turned the seats round yourself.
(In 1981 trains were less crowded and slower, at least in NO).

 

[Taunton]

Also, why (page 23) is it a requirement of any rolling stock that all the seats face the direction of travel?

This, in particular, reads as though it is fulfilling the wishes of individual parliamentarians or lobbyists...

Sounds like it is the work of a lobbyist for a train builder/seat manufacturer of seats which can do this, to score one against those whose products do not do so.

An issue with rotatable seats is their crashworthiness, it being more difficult to make them secure up to the specified g-level as no matter how well anchored down to the floor the whole seat stability then depends on the rotating bearing. Has someone got a patent on rotating seat bearings which are high-g compliant? If you think about the lever action of a body thrown by collision forces against the uppermost part of the seat, and that being transmitted to a rotating bearing low down, and you understand the physics, you will see the issue. This is where back-to-back pairs of normal seating bays score, as it is much more straightforward to make them compliantly secure.

 

[Giugiaro]

Regarding the front facing seats, I can think of a few things why they want to impose these:

1 - The TEE 2.0 is meant to replace several air links within Europe, and a lot of those passenger will be used to the experience of riding a plane, which has all the seats facing forward;
2 - The original, all first class, service had front facing seats as a standard because that was a differentiating characteristic of the service, and they may want to re-implement it in the newer network for the same reason;
3 - Passengers generally don't like facing backwards, and it's believed that facing backwards is more nauseating (see Motion Sickness in Automated Vehicles with Forward and Rearward Facing Seating Orientations | researchgate.net);
4 - Rotating seats also allow passengers to modify the layout as they please. A group of friends, or a family, can change freely the layout to face seats against each other, if given the possibility;

They also have disadvantages as well like:

1 - Being far more expensive and complex;
2 - Requiring extra maintenance and care;
3 - Adds another failure point to the service;
4 - Makes it harder to work the ergonomics out, since you have to study a dynamic position;
5 - The layout needs to account for the space required for the seat rotation.

 

[jamesontheroad]

1 - The TEE 2.0 is meant to replace several air links within Europe, and a lot of those passenger will be used to the experience of riding a plane, which has all the seats facing forward;

I, for one, hope that rail travel be more like travelling by plane.

 

[StephenHunter]

Has anyone got photos of this 1980s DB stock?

 

[Stephen Lee]

wondered what will TEE 29/30: Milan – Zagreb – Budapest use as MAV-START/HZ doesn't have high speed trains