Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[tfw756rider]

TfW have bought a couple of 67s outright

I didn't know that.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I didn't know that.

67026 (for spares) and 67028 (for use) - 67028 went to Toton a few months ago and had its DB branding removed then went back to Crewe and seems to have stayed there since.

 

[tfw756rider]

67026 (for spares) and 67028 (for use) - 67028 went to Toton a few months ago and had its DB branding removed then went back to Crewe and seems to have stayed there since.

Thanks

 

[Liam L]

To provide better services i think. By the time the 68s got to Kidderminster they were empty anyway. Then they had to go back to Stourbridge to go into the Sidings. I rode one once from London to Kidderminster just to tick it off really.

They went as WMR increased to around every 15 minutes to Kidderminster and presumably passenger numbers were low.

 

[Ridercross]

They went as WMR increased to around every 15 minutes to Kidderminster and presumably passenger numbers were low.

WMR previously ran 4 trains an hour during the day prior to Covid anyway and these Chilterns were on top of that so don't think that is relevant.
As previously mentioned these trains provided much needed capacity over the Kidderminster to Birmingham corridor during the AM peak. These trains are definitely needed as standing throughout is not uncommon now on the WMR AM peak trains.

 

[Liam L]

WMR previously ran 4 trains an hour during the day prior to Covid anyway and these Chilterns were on top of that so don't think that is relevant.

Correct however it was 20/10 frequency as 2 paths for the 6tph wasn't used after covid.

The recast was to allow for a even 15 minutes (4tph) service

 

[sammyg901]

Not sure if it's the weather but the existing MK3 sets have been an absolute headache for Chiltern over the past few weeks . 1H12 Princes Risborough - Marylebone broken down at Neasden Junction today which took out both routes for most of the morning (and the Radio 2 + GHR mid morning shows!) and there have been multiple failures over the past few weeks too. Hopefully they're pushing hard on their replacements

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but could a mk5 set join to a 165/168, for say an ECS, and maybe even in passenger service? A 168 joined onto a delayed Mk3 set last Wednesday according to RTT so surely it should be possible for a mk5?

(Attached screenshot showing RTT showing 1H14 SBJ - MYB running (30 mins late) as a Mk3 set plus 3-car 168 last Wednesday)

 

[Liam L]

Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but could a mk5 set join to a 165/168, for say an ECS, and maybe even in passenger service? A 168 joined onto a delayed Mk3 set last Wednesday according to RTT so surely it should be possible for a mk5?
View attachment 182992
(Attached screenshot showing RTT showing 1H14 SBJ - MYB running (30 mins late) as a Mk3 set plus 3-car 168 last Wednesday)

No, that's being shown on RTT is a set swap. RTT goes a bit funny with those at times.

 

[43096]

Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but could a mk5 set join to a 165/168, for say an ECS, and maybe even in passenger service? A 168 joined onto a delayed Mk3 set last Wednesday according to RTT so surely it should be possible for a mk5?
View attachment 182992
(Attached screenshot showing RTT showing 1H14 SBJ - MYB running (30 mins late) as a Mk3 set plus 3-car 168 last Wednesday)

We really need a sticky on here covering this scenario of when TOCs don't de-allocate when they do set swaps. Been so many "can this couple" or "there's a 24-car train running" comments.

No, that's being shown on RTT is a set swap. RTT goes a bit funny with those at times.

It's not RTT going funny. It is the TOC not correctly de-allocating the original formation when there is a set swap, so the data feed reports both allocations.

 

[800001]

We really need a sticky on here covering this scenario of when TOCs don't de-allocate when they do set swaps. Been so many "can this couple" or "there's a 24-car train running" comments.

It's not RTT going funny. It is the TOC not correctly de-allocating the original formation when there is a set swap, so the data feed reports both allocations.

Control can do the Set swaps 100% correct and RTT will often still show 2 allocations for a while until it catches up (I know as I’ve done the set swaps correct before and it still appeared wrong)

 

[Peter749]

Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but could a mk5 set join to a 165/168, for say an ECS, and maybe even in passenger service? A 168 joined onto a delayed Mk3 set last Wednesday according to RTT so surely it should be possible for a mk5?
View attachment 182992
(Attached screenshot showing RTT showing 1H14 SBJ - MYB running (30 mins late) as a Mk3 set plus 3-car 168 last Wednesday)

It would not be possible to do what is shown in the picture as the 68+Dvt have Buffers on the outer ends - the 168 has an automatic coupling

 

[MerlinRail 804]

It would not be possible to do what is shown in the picture as the 68+Dvt have Buffers on the outer ends - the 168 has an automatic coupling

So it would be the same on the Mk5s because of the buffers then I guess?

 

[D365]

So it would be the same on the Mk5s because of the buffers then I guess?

The buffers are the least of the problems… Class 16x units do not have any multiple working capability with loco-hauled passenger trains.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

The buffers are the least of the problems… Class 16x units do not have any multiple working capability with loco-hauled passenger trains.

Nor do any other current-day multiple units - them and loco-hauled trains are now completely separate breeds!

 

[MerlinRail 804]

The buffers are the least of the problems… Class 16x units do not have any multiple working capability with loco-hauled passenger trains.

Ah I see. Thanks!

 

[Snow1964]

Tender result published £300m for all mk5s and class 68 locos
144 months

1 buyer​

• Chiltern Railway Sunderland

1 supplier​

• Beacon Rail Finance Europe London

Description​

The contracting authority will enter into contracts with the supplier for the supply of existing rolling stock for use on the Chiltern Railways routes. These contracts will be for the leasing by the supplier to the contracting authority of the supplier's full fleet of Mark5A coaches and Class 68 locomotives, for operation by the contracting authority, with associated maintenance.

Award Detail​

1	Beacon Rail Finance Europe (London) Reference: 1 Value: £300,000,000

On 22 December 2023 the contracting authority issued a contract notice - utilities with Notice reference 2023/S 000-037814 for the replacement of existing rolling stock. Beacon Rail Finance (Europe) Limited was the only supplier that could offer rolling stock units that meet the contracting authority's technical requirements of having units able to be utilised in fixed formations of 5 passenger vehicles to enter into passenger service from 31 March 2026 on a turnkey basis. Under the agreed contract terms, the supplier will be responsible for procuring preventative and corrective maintenance for the units on an interim basis for a period between contract award and 6 December 2026. This will cover services in respect of 4 units to be provided for the purposes of driver training and 3 units to enable passenger service commencement on 1 April 2026. The contracting authority will be responsible for certain train preparation, cleaning, fuelling and minor defect rectification services (as agreed from time to time between the contracting authority and the supplier's maintenance providers) during this interim period and will be a party to the interim service agreement in order to reduce interface risk with its self-delivered services and facilitate the performance and reliability of the units. The contracting authority intends to carry out a separate procurement for the long-term provision of preventative and corrective maintenance over the remainder of the 144 month period.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W30/850985284

 

[JonathanH]

144 months

12 years, but seemingly only direct replacement of the Mark 3 sets at first (as I think was already suggested). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to run more frequently than the current Mark 3 sets.

I guess the other interesting point is that they aren't earmarked for early replacement as part of whatever replaces the 165s.

 

[Energy]

Tender result published £300m for all mk5s and class 68 locos
144 months

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W30/850985284

Interesting to see Chiltern go for a 12 year lease given the trouble TPE had.

I guess the other interesting point is that they aren't earmarked for early replacement as part of whatever replaces the 165s.

I’m guessing mk5As on all of the Birminghams, move the 168s further south, scrap the worst of the 165s to keep the rest of the fleet going, eventually a new battery EMU fleet to replace 168/165s.

 

[43096]

12 years, but seemingly only direct replacement of the Mark 3 sets at first (as I think was already suggested). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to run more frequently than the current Mark 3 sets.

The award states 144 months from 6 December 2026, with an interim agreement until then of 4 sets for training / 3 for service (i.e. Mark 3 replacement). I'm reading that as full fleet available from 6 December 2026 so effectively from the December timetable change as crew training can be done before then.

 

[43096]

Interesting to see Chiltern go for a 12 year lease given the trouble TPE had.

Chiltern will have got a much better deal from Beacon by agreeing a long-term lease.

 

[hexagon789]

I’m guessing mk5As on all of the Birminghams, move the 168s further south, scrap the worst of the 165s to keep the rest of the fleet going, eventually a new battery EMU fleet to replace 168/165s.

The plan is for 9 or 10 Mk5A diagrams, at least two Birminghams would remain 168s due to crewing etc.

 

[Zomboid]

12 years, but seemingly only direct replacement of the Mark 3 sets at first (as I think was already suggested). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to run more frequently than the current Mark 3 sets.

I guess the other interesting point is that they aren't earmarked for early replacement as part of whatever replaces the 165s.

It's probably not a huge leap to think that the 168s could go on for 12 years, so I guess the idea is that the "main line" trains will be 168s and LHCS for the foreseeable, and the 165s have less time left with the potential combo order with SWR/ GWR

 

[Snow1964]

It's probably not a huge leap to think that the 168s could go on for 12 years, so I guess the idea is that the "main line" trains will be 168s and LHCS for the foreseeable, and the 165s have less time left with the potential combo order with SWR/ GWR

The 168s date from 1998-2004, and refurbs commenced last year, so yes expecting them to operate to about 2038 seems reasonable.

So leaving option of replacing both 168s and mk5s around 2037-2038 makes a lot of sense. Likely to be around the time other replacements are going to have to be considered (think of classes 220, 221, 323, 334, 357, 390, 458 etc) so lots of potential to group up into one or two standard designs.

 

[The exile]

I guess the other interesting point is that they aren't earmarked for early replacement as part of whatever replaces the 165s.

Given the size of any potential order, the desire to keep factories open as long as possible and the length of time before any new order comes on stream- even assuming they don’t emulate the 701s- it just means Chiltern Main Line will be vying with the 175s for “last to be replaced”.

 

[D365]

I’m guessing mk5As on all of the Birminghams, move the 168s further south, scrap the worst of the 165s to keep the rest of the fleet going, eventually a new battery EMU fleet to replace 168/165s.

and to displace the six Class 196/0s back to WMT.

 

[xotGD]

Excellent news.

Time to move this thread out of 'Speculative Discussion'?

 

[Snow1964]

Excellent news.

Time to move this thread out of 'Speculative Discussion'?

Just checked Government site and it appears it is in standstill period to 31st July, so not officially signed off, but of course that is really just a period to allow objections by competitors (not that anyone else could supply suitable existing stock).

Also updates the period to 10 years, 4 months, 13 days (yes, really)

Replacement (Existing) Rolling Stock for Chiltern Railways - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

 

[The exile]

Also updates the period to 10 years, 4 months, 13 days (yes, really)

Is that the first official indication of when the 2036 timetable will start?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

"the supplier's full fleet of Mark5A coaches and Class 68 locomotives,"

Except it's not the 'supplier's full fleet of ... Class 68 locomotives". It's 14 of them - the other 18 being leased to DRS.