Potential FCC Prosecution - Advice Required

[thetourist]

hi first capital connect have issued me an intention to prosecute.
i was on a train without a ticket, i told the inspector i would pay at the next station, this was verbally agreed.

Arriving at st pancreas, he called a collegue over, after offering to pay i was told that i could not and that my details were needed.

I refused to give them, british transport police were called in, i was held by the barriers for 30 mins. Eventually one of the btp's took a letter from my pocket, WITHOUT my consent and have the details to the inspector.

On the intention to prosecute, they have my address right but my first name wrong.

I am told by legal advise they have six months to bring it to court and not to respond to the letter.

Does anyone have any experience or advice.

Kind thanks.

(my phone also mysteriously went missing)

 

[bb21]

Hi and welcome.

Is there any particular reason why you didn't have a valid ticket?

 

[thetourist]

well i feel asleep after a long work day *and being drunk. On my bus home.. ended up 10 miles away from house, in hatfield. I think someone might have slipped me something.. anyway.

i do not recall boarding the train, the next thing i remember is being woken by the RPI on approaching st. pancreas.

 

[island]

It's a criminal offense to fail to hand over a ticket when challenged (with a few exceptions) and it's a further criminal offense to fail to give your name and address in the circumstances described. Can you clarify why you didn't have a ticket?

 

[thetourist]

i fell asleep on my bus home,

either i was too drunk and someone put me on a train or there was no ticket barrier at hatfield.

 

[thetourist]

Also note, i did not give information. A letter was taken from my pocket by community support british transport police, without my permission.

Since they copied the details down wrong, can i be prosecuted?

 

[Deerfold]

(my phone also mysteriously went missing)

I think you'll need to give more information generally for people to be able to advise usefully.

However I'm not sure what this comment is supposed to mean at all - did you lose your phone before or after travel or are you suggesting that a BTP officer took it?

 

[bb21]

When you say it was verbally agreed. Can you recall what conversation took place exactly?

 

[thetourist]

the RPI asked if i had a ticket, i looked and couldnt find one. I showed an oyster card, (i didnt know where i was)

I asked if i could pay at St. P as i only had a debit card on me, he said yes.

Nothing more or less.

 

[bb21]

If that is the whole story (and I have no reason to doubt your version of the events), then the RPI's actions do appear quite unreasonable. However I am sure that you can appreciate it would be your words against his at the end of the day. (Do you have any witness who can testify that he agreed you could pay at the London end?)

Refusing to provide your details after failing to hand over a valid ticket unfortunately brings us into the territory of a Regulation of Railways Act (Section 5) offence, which if convicted under carries a criminal record. You might be able to argue that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare, however your actions (refusing to provide details) may be interpreted by a court as intent.

As for whether the incorrect first name matters, I would say that it does not. The paperwork submitted will almost certainly have a description of you, and in your case, there is also a trusty witness they could call on, so I don't think it will wash.

I think you need to be honest in your reply, and explain exactly what had happened. If they don't go with a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, they could go for a Byelaws prosecution (more likely), which you will have no defence for, but it will not carry a criminal record if convicted.

Were you with anyone before getting on the bus/train? If you don't remember what happened before you were woken up by the RPI, you might want to ask them to see if they could recall what happened that night.

 

[thetourist]

I have no witnesses, the only hope i would have is the cctv footage from St Pancreas, showing a community support BTP officer stealing personal details from my jacket. Can civilians request cctv footage from railway stations.

I have reported the officers to the BTP.

I awoke on a train, with the RPI standing over me. I was confused and taken back. I have no idea how i got on the train.

Does anyone know if Hatfield does have a barrier system in place?

Legal advice said, that if i do not respond to the intention of prosecution letter, since the summons would be for someone who is not me, they can not prosecute.

I would prefer to get this mess sorted without courts, it doesnt look as if that is an option.

 

[causton]

What time was it? By the sounds of it this was late at night, and Hatfield is only barriered until 8/9pm usually. Was it even Hatfield? Trains from Hatfield run to Kings Cross and not St Pancras, or St Pancreas.

 

[thetourist]

I was apparently on the

18:55 train from Cambridge to Kings Cross,

my bus does go to hatfield, so can only assume i boarded there. Excuse the spelling of ST P.

oh ok, you see i would normally if going to london head in from radlett to ST. P. i assumed thats were i was.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
lets assume, that i did buy a ticket at hatfield and was drunk enough for someone to remember.

If i could find such a witness, is there any chance of clearing my name?

 

[Flamingo]

Why did you not pay when asked? Most debit cards are accepted by Avantex machines.

By the way, all the stuff about drunk and fell asleep on a bus is pretty much irrelevant to not being able to produce a valid ticket.

Even if you did buy a ticket at Hatfield (if you were that drunk I would doubt it), the fact that you couldn't produce it is all that matters.

If you were refusing to give your name and address, I would say that the PCSO did you a favour by finding some ID that had slipped your memory in your drunken state, he could have detained you, called a grown-up and had you arrested for
1. Failure to possess a valid ticket
2. Refusal to provide your name and address
3. Being drunk on railway premises
and I'm sure that a bit of creative thinking would have come up with a bit more...


I would disagree BB21, I think whoever was checking the ticket acted reasonably.

 

[thetourist]

If someone at hatfield a member of staff put me on the train, would i not be covered?

I kind of feel that i dont have a leg to stand on too. I have no idea why i didnt pay. I guess he didnt have working machine with him. (unsure of this). I did try to pay at kings cross and was told that it was too late.

So since i face potential prison time, the best advice is pretend i never received the letter? and jump countries?

 

[harry42]

The majority of TOCs are clamping down on fare evasion. East Midlands Trains have very strict rules in place on their Midland Mainline services. On their route map, services between Bedford and St. Pancras are marked as penalty fare stations by another operator (First Capital Connect.)

I also had a recent experience on FCC, and at the station I was asked for my ticket so gave it. The person behind me didn't have one, and was given a £60 on the spot Penalty Fare and was forced by BTP to purchase a ticket!

Yes, they are tough but they've got to be.

 

[island]

If you want to do that, do, but it is unlikely to get to that stage. Prison sentences are a very rare occurrence for railway ticketing offences, especially if it's your first time.

First Capital Connect is likely to accept a sum of money in lieu of bringing a prosecution. This may be in the region of £100. But this assumes that the BTP isn't dealing with it, in which case all bets are off.

I recommend you do not press the point of the PCSO's actions in ascertaining your details.

A member of staff "putting you on the train" at Hatfield might possibly get you off the failure to present a ticket (but probably won't). It definitely won't excuse failing to give name and address.

 

[Flamingo]

Trust me, a member of staff would not put a somebody who was so drunk that they didn't know where they were on a train.

I have to say, you sobered up very quickly on the train-ride. You seem to have gone from incapably drunk to fully alert in a very short space of time.

(edited to add: Incapably drunk is not an excuse, anyway).

 

[jon0844]

When the gates go open at Hatfield, the station ticket hall is closed and you enter via a side gate. Nobody would be there to give permission to travel. Any member of staff would be concerned for your welfare and likely help you - perhaps by getting you into a taxi instead if you were out of it (assuming a taxi would have taken you of course).

And despite the number of times you've said it, trains do not come into St Pancras so I am confused why you keep saying that. Given you've had legal advice after, it's a rather major mistake. Especially if you might seek CCTV evidence or other witnesses.

 

[thetourist]

Jon it has been pointed out! i was on the cambridge-kings cross train. I have found it impossible to get a number for the actual station. (Hatfield)

I was looking for silly excuses to get off the charge. I guess the question i am asking is after 6 months they drop the charges?
As long as i dont confirm my identity, they are putting a summons through for the wrong the person. Eg. i havent received a summons, nor correspondence addressed to myself.

I felt violated and cheated, not out of anyone else's fault but my own.
I got drunk, somehow i got on a train 14.1 miles away from me. I deserve no special treatment. I fell asleep on the bus or i would have got off it! I fell asleep on the train.

Being confronted by an inspector wakes you up. *are they allowed to wake you up?

If they send a reasonable fine, i will accept it.. cant afford it. Offered to pay on the day.

just a little aggrieved. But First Cap Connect are pretty harsh from what i read.

 

[yorkie]

I was looking for silly excuses to get off the charge....

Sorry but that isn't what this forum is here for. You will need to do that elsewhere.

Being confronted by an inspector wakes you up. *are they allowed to wake you up?

You are required to show/purchase a ticket on demand, so... yes, I think so!

If they send a reasonable fine, i will accept it.

It will be up to the Courts to decide how much to fine you, if you are found guilty.