Possible route deviation for Liverpool-Nottingham

[Philip]

Reading in the other thread about South TPE not seeing increased service frequency because of Hope Valley capacity, how feasible would this idea be to create an extra Hope Valley path immediately?

Divert Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich via Standedge, Penistone and Barnsley to run into Sheffield from the east. I don't know what the Standedge line capacity is like currently, but if there is a path, then how much journey time would be added to Manc-Sheffield going this way, compared to the Hope Valley? Avoiding the single line stretch through Dore Junction would help and the train wouldn't have to wait as long at Sheffield as it does now while the traincrew swap cabs.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Reading in the other thread about South TPE not seeing increased service frequency because of Hope Valley capacity, how feasible would this idea be to create an extra Hope Valley path immediately?

Divert Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich via Standedge, Penistone and Barnsley to run into Sheffield from the east. I don't know what the Standedge line capacity is like currently, but if there is a path, then how much journey time would be added to Manc-Sheffield going this way, compared to the Hope Valley? Avoiding the single line stretch through Dore Junction would help and the train wouldn't have to wait as long at Sheffield as it does now while the traincrew swap cabs.

No capacity between Huddersfield and Sheffield for extra services via Barnsley at all.

 

[Philip]

No capacity between Huddersfield and Sheffield for extra services via Barnsley at all.

Where is the problem section? I didn't think either the Penistone or the Tankersley lines were overrun with services?

 

[Ianno87]

Where is the problem section? I didn't think either the Penistone or the Tankersley lines were overrun with services?

Being single line via Penistone would be a problem.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Where is the problem section? I didn't think either the Penistone or the Tankersley lines were overrun with services?

Single track as @Ianno87 said. It's only enough for the present-day service.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Reversal at Huddersfield would be a problem too

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Reversal at Huddersfield would be a problem too

There is that too

 

[yorksrob]

And we've had discussions ad nauseum about trying to fit too many services between Huddersfield and Manchester.

 

[Hardcastle]

Why alter the current route just sort Dore junction back to double track.

 

[nr758123]

Sorry, but this is a complete non-starter. Standedge is full.

 

[D365]

Why alter the current route just sort Dore junction back to double track.

Fixing Dore, and the Bamford loop; am I right in saying that will create an extra path each hour?

 

[HST43257]

Standedge is full, the Penistone route is single line and the Hope Valley needs shorter signal blocks with 2 tracks instead of 1 at Dore Jn plus maybe some freight/slow passenger service loops en route.

 

[randyrippley]

Reading in the other thread about South TPE not seeing increased service frequency because of Hope Valley capacity, how feasible would this idea be to create an extra Hope Valley path immediately?

Divert Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich via Standedge, Penistone and Barnsley to run into Sheffield from the east. I don't know what the Standedge line capacity is like currently, but if there is a path, then how much journey time would be added to Manc-Sheffield going this way, compared to the Hope Valley? Avoiding the single line stretch through Dore Junction would help and the train wouldn't have to wait as long at Sheffield as it does now while the traincrew swap cabs.

When the 156 fleet was first introduced that route was actually used for Sunday engineering diversions, with a reversal at Huddersfield

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Swapping a single line at Dore of around a mile (rough guesstimate) for three single line sections between Huddersfield and Barnsley of around 20 miles in total is an absolute non-starter I'm afraid. Reversals aren't the issue that many seem to think they are, but I'm not sure what you actually gain by making this change.
The TPE Hope Valley services already have regular diversions via Huddersfield but there's a good reason they run via Wakefield Kirkgate and not Penistone. The Penistone line is absolutely no good for longer distance services even if it was fully double track, due to the dog leg it takes to serve Barnsley and access Sheffield Midland.
Both South and West Yorkshire PTE/ITAs (or whatever they're called this week) have aspirations for a second hourly service along the Penistone line, but there isn't a path between Meadowhall and Sheffield (oddly, you could possibly squeeze an extra service on the mostly single-track section North of Barnsley, as the Penistone loop isn't used most hours), but you'd have no recovery options if things went pear-shaped.

 

[tetudo boy]

Divert Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich via Standedge, Penistone and Barnsley to run into Sheffield from the east. I don't know what the Standedge line capacity is like currently, but if there is a path, then how much journey time would be added to Manc-Sheffield going this way, compared to the Hope Valley? Avoiding the single line stretch through Dore Junction would help and the train wouldn't have to wait as long at Sheffield as it does now while the traincrew swap cabs.

No. It would take immensely longer and there are a lot of single track sections. Reopening the Woodhead line as far as Penistone and via Penistone Line is an option, but then you have the problem with the single track Between Penistone and Barnsley.

 

[HST43257]

oddly, you could possibly squeeze an extra service on the mostly single-track section North of Barnsley, as the Penistone loop isn't used most hours)

Pretty sure you’d need a new loop at Berry Brow or Honley

 

[D365]

Reopening the Woodhead line as far as Penistone and via Penistone Line is an option, but then you have the problem with the single track Between Penistone and Barnsley.

Please not again......

 

[Whistler40145]

No capacity between Huddersfield and Sheffield for extra services via Barnsley at all.

Even if the line had sufficient capacity, would structures like Lockwood Viaduct have the correct Route Availability for Class 185s, plus would Network Rail carry out any modifications to the Penistone Line?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Even if the line had sufficient capacity, would structures like Lockwood Viaduct have the correct Route Availability for Class 185s, plus would Network Rail carry out any modifications to the Penistone Line?

Thats a good point

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pretty sure you’d need a new loop at Berry Brow or Honley

You need another loop for an evenly-spaced half hourly service, but can squeeze an extra one in in one direction in the peak. Pre-COVID, there was an extra departure from Huddersfield in the evening on Monday to Friday. This even used to run as a through service from Leeds back in the day.

 

[Bevan Price]

Even if paths were available, it would probably add at least 30 minutes to the Manchester / Sheffield journey time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Even if the line had sufficient capacity, would structures like Lockwood Viaduct have the correct Route Availability for Class 185s, plus would Network Rail carry out any modifications to the Penistone Line?

Lockwood viaduct isn't the problem structure AIUI, Paddock viaduct (the one closer to Huddersfield with the iron central spans) is. However around a decade ago this viaduct finally had the long-delayed work done and can now take LHCS or 185s with a 10mph PSR. The confusion over the name of the viaduct possibly comes from a miscaptioned painting in the Head of Steam pub at Huddersfield.

 

[Whistler40145]

Lockwood viaduct isn't the problem structure AIUI, Paddock viaduct (the one closer to Huddersfield with the iron central spans) is. However around a decade ago this viaduct finally had the long-delayed work done and can now take LHCS or 185s with a 10mph PSR. The confusion over the name of the viaduct possibly comes from a miscaptioned painting in the Head of Steam pub at Huddersfield.

My sincere apologies for the confusion

As for a Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham service being routed over the Penistone Line, would this replace the current Sheffield to Huddersfield service or additional?

 

[tetudo boy]

Please not again......

JUST as far a Penistone, though. Not all the way to Sheffield.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

JUST as far a Penistone, though. Not all the way to Sheffield.

Such a lack of ambition. Get those crayons swallowed.

 

[D365]

JUST as far a Penistone, though. Not all the way to Sheffield.

Such a lack of ambition. Get those crayons swallowed.

Is reopening Sheffield Victoria not a grand enough plan?

 

[tetudo boy]

Is reopening Sheffield Victoria not a grand enough plan?

If we did build the Woodhead line all the way to Sheffield, what it would do is provide a second terminal again to Sheffield, saving capacity, plus line to Deepcar is still alive and operating as a freight line, so building the line to Sheffield Victoria could happen, since we only need to build from Hadfield to Deepcar.

 

[D365]

If we did build the Woodhead line all the way to Sheffield, what it would do is provide a second terminal again to Sheffield, saving capacity, plus line to Deepcar is still alive and operating as a freight line, so building the line to Sheffield Victoria could happen, since we only need to build from Hadfield to Deepcar.

The line from Deepcar to Darnall would need a total rebuild. It’s single track and in no way suitable for 21st Century passenger service.

There would also need to be significant investment into public transport links, in order to connect Victoria to the city centre. That’s part of the reason why HS2 is going to Midland instead.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If we did build the Woodhead line all the way to Sheffield, what it would do is provide a second terminal again to Sheffield, saving capacity, plus line to Deepcar is still alive and operating as a freight line, so building the line to Sheffield Victoria could happen, since we only need to build from Hadfield to Deepcar.

“Only”

 

[Llandudno]

“Only”

These and other public transport infrastructure improvements should have taken place years ago, but SYPTE spent all their money on two-penny bus fares, great at the time, but no lasting legacy, unlike Merseyrail and Tyne & Wear Metro.