Possible route deviation for Liverpool-Nottingham

[Killingworth]

Why alter the current route just sort Dore junction back to double track.

Which it should be by June 2023 if all goes to plan - just needs final financial sign off to let contracts this month.

 

[daodao]

The Crewe to Derby service should be extended to Nottingham and use longer trains (not class 153s). Passengers from Liverpool and Warrington to Derby and Nottingham should be encouraged to change at Crewe; those from Manchester and Stockport could change at Stoke (quicker for Derby) or Sheffield (quicker for Nottingham). The Liverpool to Sheffield service via the CLC line should be made half-hourly, and run by Northern or EMR with standard class only services, with alternate trains extending semi-fast to Cleethorpes via Doncaster or Lincoln via Retford. TPE should be removed from the Hope Valley line.

 

[Killingworth]

These and other public transport infrastructure improvements should have taken place years ago, but SYPTE spent all their money on two-penny bus fares, great at the time, but no lasting legacy, unlike Merseyrail and Tyne & Wear Metro.

It will be interesting to see what happens when service patterns and frequencies can be reviewed in the light of short term and lthen longer term Covid impacts on demand. Local observation suggests commuting and business travel is going to be far more severely hit than leisure along this trans Pennine route. I don't see a capacity need for a third fast service with 6 coach trains now being provided. What is needed is more reliability.

 

[Greybeard33]

The line from Deepcar to Darnall would need a total rebuild. It’s single track and in no way suitable for 21st Century passenger service.

There would also need to be significant investment into public transport links, in order to connect Victoria to the city centre. That’s part of the reason why HS2 is going to Midland instead.

And while we are at it, Hadfield to Dinting is single track, Guide Bridge to Piccadilly is full and there are certainly no paths across Piccadilly throat to carry on to Liverpool.

 

[Llandudno]

The Crewe to Derby service should be extended to Nottingham and use longer trains (not class 153s). Passengers from Liverpool and Warrington to Derby and Nottingham should be encouraged to change at Crewe; those from Manchester and Stockport could change at Stoke (quicker for Derby) or Sheffield (quicker for Nottingham). The Liverpool to Sheffield service via the CLC line should be made half-hourly, and run by Northern or EMR with standard class only services, with alternate trains extending semi-fast to Cleethorpes via Doncaster or Lincoln via Retford. TPE should be removed from the Hope Valley line.

Jeez, don’t give Northern any more routes to cover!

EMR are fine though and should continue the Liverpool - Nottingham route!
A later eastbound train from Liverpool would be useful though!

 

[Greybeard33]

Jeez, don’t give Northern any more routes to cover!

EMR are fine though and should continue the Liverpool - Nottingham route!

Now franchises are being replaced by concessions, what will it matter which concession operates which route? DfT will set the fares and will be able to organise rolling stock transfers as appropriate. Even the liveries will likely be standardised - the only real difference will be the logo on the carriages and uniforms.

 

[JonathanH]

Now franchises are being replaced by concessions, what will it matter which concession operates which route?

It still matters with regard to which traincrew operates the route. If Nottingham currently work it then moving the work to another depot does matter.

 

[Llandudno]

Now franchises are being replaced by concessions, what will it matter which concession operates which route? DfT will set the fares and will be able to organise rolling stock transfers as appropriate. Even the liveries will likely be standardised - the only real difference will be the logo on the carriages and uniforms.

Maybe the liveries could be standardised but possibly the same ‘Northern reliability issues’ would remain...?

 

[6Gman]

If we did build the Woodhead line all the way to Sheffield, what it would do is provide a second terminal again to Sheffield, saving capacity, plus line to Deepcar is still alive and operating as a freight line, so building the line to Sheffield Victoria could happen, since we only need to build from Hadfield to Deepcar.

You seem to be saying two stations would be a good thing.

Not if you need to change stations!

 

[Greybeard33]

It still matters with regard to which traincrew operates the route. If Nottingham currently work it then moving the work to another depot does matter.

The TOCs will no longer be competing with each other. If mutually beneficial, it should be possible to arrange for Northern or TPE traincrew from a Liverpool or Manchester depot to work the western part of the service and EM crew from Nottingham to take over for the eastern segment, swapping in Manchester or Sheffield. This could avoid long ECS workings or overnight stays.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The TOCs will no longer be competing with each other. If mutually beneficial, it should be possible to arrange for Northern or TPE traincrew from a Liverpool or Manchester depot to work the western part of the service and EM crew from Nottingham to take over for the eastern segment, swapping in Manchester or Sheffield. This could avoid long ECS workings or overnight stays.

I'm not sure exactly how "beneficial" it would be changing crews at busy stations like Piccadilly P13&14 and Sheffield. Sounds like a recipe for chaos if things get out of kilter. IMHO the Nottingham crews have done a great job over many years and kept up a handy range of diversionary route knowledge via Chat Moss, Ashburys, Dore South Curve, Beighton and Derby.

 

[D365]

You seem to be saying two stations would be a good thing.

Not if you need to change stations!

And that's where we bring in a new Supertram branch for the Purple line

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm not sure exactly how "beneficial" it would be changing crews at busy stations like Piccadilly P13&14 and Sheffield. Sounds like a recipe for chaos if things get out of kilter. IMHO the Nottingham crews have done a great job over many years and kept up a handy range of diversionary route knowledge via Chat Moss, Ashburys, Dore South Curve, Beighton and Derby.

But, with the railway under pressure to reduce costs, it is not a very efficient use of resources to run ECS all the way from Nottingham to Liverpool in order to form the first eastbound service of the morning.

Pre-Covid, I believe ScotRail and Northern used to swap crews at Carlisle on through workings between the Glasgow South Western and Tyne Valley lines.

 

[Dr Hoo]

But, with the railway under pressure to reduce costs, it is not a very efficient use of resources to run ECS all the way from Nottingham to Liverpool in order to form the first eastbound service of the morning.

Pre-Covid, I believe ScotRail and Northern used to swap crews at Carlisle on through workings between the Glasgow South Western and Tyne Valley lines.

Ironic that good old BR Regional Railways set the service up on the basis of being resourced from Nottingham, long before franchising came along. The ECS workings function very well as route knowledge retainers without confusing passengers with non-standard stopping patterns.

Training crews at Liverpool and/or Manchester and re-introducing Class 158 stabling, cleaning and maintenance at the (nearly all-electric) Liverpool end hardly sounds like a massive cash saver either.

In the ScotRail + Northern example it takes around 4 hours to get from Glasgow to Newcastle or v.v. whereas Nottingham-Liverpool is typically just under 3 hours - ideal for a nice return diagram with a reasonable break.

 

[6Gman]

And that's where we bring in a new Supertram branch for the Purple line

You disappoint me.

Call the Worcester Cable Car man!

(For new readers, there was a thread devoted to the idea of linking Foregate St to Shrub Hill by cable car)

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm not sure exactly how "beneficial" it would be changing crews at busy stations like Piccadilly P13&14 and Sheffield. Sounds like a recipe for chaos if things get out of kilter. IMHO the Nottingham crews have done a great job over many years and kept up a handy range of diversionary route knowledge via Chat Moss, Ashburys, Dore South Curve, Beighton and Derby.

I've never seen either a TPE or EMR service have a crew change at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14, normally would be Sheffield and no doubt it would be included in the timings.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I've never seen either a TPE or EMR service have a crew change at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14, normally would be Sheffield and no doubt it would be included in the timings.

In Post #40 there was a suggestion that such changes could be "beneficial" to the current situation.

 

[Gathursty]

I think we need to stop Liverpool - Nottingham as Picadilly is too congested at the throat. We should encourage Scousers to go via Crewe and Stoke and as above, we need to beef up Crewe - Derby and beyond instead of leaving it as some rural backwater line which it certainly isn't.

 

[Whistler40145]

In Post #40 there was a suggestion that such changes could be "beneficial" to the current situation.

I know Northern usually change crews at Oxford Road

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You disappoint me.

Call the Worcester Cable Car man!

(For new readers, there was a thread devoted to the idea of linking Foregate St to Shrub Hill by cable car)

That's only marginally less sane than this one, which suggested avoiding a short single line section and reversal by moving to a route which also requires a reversal and has significantly more single track... in fact as I type that, I'm convincing myself that in reality this Worcester Cable Car is the more sensible proposition!

 

[yorksrob]

I think we need to stop Liverpool - Nottingham as Picadilly is too congested at the throat. We should encourage Scousers to go via Crewe and Stoke and as above, we need to beef up Crewe - Derby and beyond instead of leaving it as some rural backwater line which it certainly isn't.

On the contrary, I find the Liverpool - Sheffield section remarkably useful, both for travelling across Manchester, and for connections at Oxford Road. Crewe-Derby wouldn't assist me much in my usual journeys.

 

[Philip]

I think we need to stop Liverpool - Nottingham as Picadilly is too congested at the throat. We should encourage Scousers to go via Crewe and Stoke and as above, we need to beef up Crewe - Derby and beyond instead of leaving it as some rural backwater line which it certainly isn't.

Running into Victoria from the Chat Moss line and then onto Stockport via Ashton Moss and Denton could be a solution, without having to cut the Liverpool-Sheffield link.

 

[daodao]

Running into Victoria from the Chat Moss line and then onto Stockport via Ashton Moss and Denton could be a solution, without having to cut the Liverpool-Sheffield link.

That route is far too roundabout. There won't be a problem keeping a regular service from Liverpool, via the CLC line, Castlefield and Stockport to Sheffield, provided that all other long distance trains are removed from the Castlefield line, namely all TfW and TPE services. There is no need for direct services from Wales, Scotland and NE England to Ringway Airport.