Possible Merseyrail expansion

[wobman]

More plans for the battery 777 units being used to expend the merseyrail network announced by the chancellor, they could offer the potential to utilise them on routes such as the Wrexham to Bidston line.

 

[yorkie]

It has been revealed £710m will be offered to the Liverpool city region, which could be used to enable the Merseyrail network beyond the current borders, possibly using battery trains:

Chancellor to fund £710m Merseyrail expansion - Liverpool Business News

In his Budget on October 27 Chancellor Rishi Sunak will hand Liverpool city region £710m to extend the Merseyrail network using battery-operated trains. Tony McDonough reports Chancellor Rishi Sunak […]

lbndaily.co.uk

Chancellor Rishi Sunak will offer £710m to the Liverpool city region in his Budget next week to fund Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram’s plan to extend the current Merseyrail network.

In July it was announced that trials of the new £500m Merseyrail train fleet had included a pilot to test whether the trains could run on batteries as well as using electrified rails. That was deemed a success with trains able to travel up to 20 miles.

This will allow the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority (CA), which owns the 52-strong fleet, to extend the network to areas such as Skelmersdale, Wrexham, Warrington and Runcorn without the need for expensive electrification of the line.

It was also revealed new stations could be opened:

As well as extending the network outside of the city region Mr Rotheram also wants to increase the size of the network within its current footprint. This could mean new stations Baltic Triangle in Liverpool, Woodchurch in Wirral and Carr Mill in St Helens.

Potential future rail map:

Which of these improvements would you most like to see go ahead? How could this be achieved? Do you forsee any issues with the proposals, and what might you do differently?

 

[HSTEd]

20 miles won't get you very far without expensive infrastructure at the terminus!

But given that caveat - all of them!

It would be a lot easier to sell the Treasury on electrification with a service running and the inevitable dramatic increase in patronage.
Although I am a bit skeptical about providing a second Merseyrail route to Southport?

 

[D821]

The station in the Baltic Triangle would be good to see, as would improvements to the Borderlands Line. The success of the 777 battery trial will help a great deal, too.

 

[Ken H]

What does the yellow bits on the map signify.
Ormskirk - Preston should be an easy one.

 

[D821]

I think they're the parts that would be served by battery trains, they are pictures of a 777.

 

[Callumphillips]

You might or might not have seen Liverpool Underground by Kayla Bibby. As much as I don't agree with all of it, I agree with the main idea that Merseyside needs real vision, no half measures. We need to get serious about transport infastructure.

Liverpool Underground Kayla Bibby

www.projectmapping.co.uk

 

[D821]

I've seen it in the Echo before when they have a slow news day, pie in the sky stuff without a thought for cost.

 

[Callumphillips]

Of course it's going to cost though, HS2 is now costing over £100bn and they're still pressing ahead with that, because it's the backbone to a faster, high-speed Britain. This would cost billions itself and I wouldn't plan on implementing the whole scheme, but we need to do something more than what we are doing, especially seeing as our transport system is currently an absolute show and many people up here are perfectly content with the disastrous idea of a car-led future. Just expanding the merseyrail network by means of battery-powered Class 777s is not enough to cope with the needs of the future.

 

[Grumpy Git]

We just need a time machine that allows us to start infrastructure updates 25 years earlier.

 

[D821]

I think you're on to something there. If we spend the 2030 budget in 2022, we'll get far more value for money than if we spent it in 2030, allowing for inflation.

 

[6Gman]

You might or might not have seen Liverpool Underground by Kayla Bibby. As much as I don't agree with all of it, I agree with the main idea that Merseyside needs real vision, no half measures. We need to get serious about transport infastructure.

Liverpool Underground Kayla Bibby

www.projectmapping.co.uk

I've seen it now. And it looks hugely expensive and probably unworkable.

 

[jamesst]

I've seen it now. And it looks hugely expensive and probably unworkable.

This exactly!
I think if you're lucky Headbolt Lane and the new Baltic station should happen.
Anything else I just can't see going ahead.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

More plans for the battery 777 units being used to expend the merseyrail network announced by the chancellor, they could offer the potential to utilise them on routes such as the Wrexham to Bidston line.

Not yet formally announced by the Chancellor but expected to be that see

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/historic-700m-boost-expand-merseyrail-21948832

also looking good for Midlands and Yorkshire - levelling up in action although devils in the detail and presumably the IRP will bring it all together hopefully next week as well but the quote

The Treasury said that the major cash boost will pay for battery packs and the potential extension of the Merseyrail network

is great to see and despite MerseyRail going it down a sort of nationalised approach good to see London supporting them. They just need to get the units into traffic!

 

[Callumphillips]

There has been the north-south divide, with Liverpool being on the victim side of it, and now nobody has any hope for public transport up here. Our local transport system is such a disaster to the point where we now think continuing encouraging private car travel is the way forward, despite the fact that all that's going to do is increase congestion, increase the risk of accidents on the roads, increase pollution and further deteriorate health. Don't get me wrong, some of this idea looks unrealistic to me too but what I've said above is not necessarily my opinion but the truth. As much as we like our comforts, we can't continue like this.

There needs to be real investment in public transport outside of London, which is, as much as it's a bigger city and the capital of England, an example-setting blueprint for how things should be. Public transport in London works extremely well and is now a natural, and factually better, choice for Londoners. Up here, there is so much traffic on the roads and lack of public transport investment and priority that people who are unable to drive themselves can't even rely on the absolute show of a system we've got up here. It's an absolute joke!

Mass transport is more efficient and generally the way to improve local transport, and that's a clear fact.

 

[Skie]

I suspect a lot of the battery funding was waiting a business case anyway, so if they can get easier access to cash for it then great. But I do hope there's something about expanding Liverpool Central in the pot too. It's been on NR's radar for a long time now with nary a peep.

 

[6Gman]

There has been the north-south divide, with Liverpool being on the victim side of it, and now nobody has any hope for public transport up here. Our local transport system is such a disaster to the point where we now think continuing encouraging private car travel is the way forward, despite the fact that all that's going to do is increase congestion, increase the risk of accidents on the roads, increase pollution and further deteriorate health. Don't get me wrong, some of this idea looks unrealistic to me too but what I've said above is not necessarily my opinion but the truth. As much as we like our comforts, we can't continue like this.

There needs to be real investment in public transport outside of London, which is, as much as it's a bigger city and the capital of England, an example-setting blueprint for how things should be. Public transport in London works extremely well and is now a natural, and factually better, choice for Londoners. Up here, there is so much traffic on the roads and lack of public transport investment and priority that people who are unable to drive themselves can't even rely on the absolute show of a system we've got up here. It's an absolute joke!

Mass transport is more efficient and generally the way to improve local transport, and that's a clear fact.

This is hyperbole.

I use the railway on Merseyside fairly regularly (well, less so since Covid) and to say it is a "disaster" is nonsense. The Merseyrail electrics are some of the most reliable trains in the UK (they have to be given the headways!) and the services out of Lime Street have been transformed in the past few years with electrification and all that new rolling stock!

Incidentally, what does "absolute show" mean? I think you've used it twice and it's not an expression I've seen before.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Incidentally, what does "absolute show" mean? I think you've used it twice and it's not an expression I've seen before.

Scouse term for embarrassing.

 

[Callumphillips]

I'm not necessarily including Merseyrail in my statement as I make daily journeys to and from Southport with Merseyrail as part of my college commute and find it an enjoyable experience. One, but not the only, part of the system I'm including is the buses. Even before the genius who goes by the name of Joe Anderson got rid of most of our bus lanes and priority measures since bus deregulation outside of London happened, our buses do not integrate well with our railway network, suffer dire punctuality and are rather expensive for what the current system is worth due to the confusing mass of tickets, which brings me onto my next point which involves both modes of transport...

The trains and stations I find pleasant, but the well known, nationwide ticket problem is something involved in my general opinion. The confusing mass of tickets being sold by different companies makes life harder for customers, especially seeing as, mainly on the buses, companies do not accept each others tickets. Also, regarding the Merseytravel ticketing system across bus, train and ferry. We have the following.

Solo, for use on all buses across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county.

Trio, for use on all buses, trains and ferries across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county.

Railpass, (now you'd think you could use this on all trains across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county, however, it can only be used on Merseyrail services, excluding what they brand as 'City Line' services).

Surely this backs up my argument that our ticketing system needs sorting out and made easier for everybody to understand.

 

[30907]

I'm not necessarily including Merseyrail in my statement as I make daily journeys to and from Southport with Merseyrail as part of my college commute and find it an enjoyable experience. One, but not the only, part of the system I'm including is the buses. Even before the genius who goes by the name of Joe Anderson got rid of most of our bus lanes and priority measures since bus deregulation outside of London happened, our buses do not integrate well with our railway network, suffer dire punctuality and are rather expensive for what the current system is worth due to the confusing mass of tickets, which brings me onto my next point which involves both modes of transport...

The trains and stations I find pleasant, but the well known, nationwide ticket problem is something involved in my general opinion. The confusing mass of tickets being sold by different companies makes life harder for customers, especially seeing as, mainly on the buses, companies do not accept each others tickets. Also, regarding the Merseytravel ticketing system across bus, train and ferry. We have the following.

Solo, for use on all buses across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county.

Trio, for use on all buses, trains and ferries across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county.

Railpass, (now you'd think you could use this on all trains across one, multiple or all zones/areas across the county, however, it can only be used on Merseyrail services, excluding what they brand as 'City Line' services).

Surely this backs up my argument that our ticketing system needs sorting out and made easier for everybody to understand.

So rather than "massive investment" (which you claimed earlier) Liverpool needs an all-zones rail-only pass instead of a Merseyrail-only one, and something more doing about bus ticketing?

 

[Class83]

The provided map looks a bit 'jam for everyone' though I fear spread so thinly that it will never happen. Also, unless all of the new trains have batteries fitted the battery units will need focused on certain lines.

The obvious i.e. should be reasonable demand services look like.

Bidston to Neston, lots of commuters in Upton, Heswall and Neston who would be tempted to use rail by a direct service. A Woodchurch station would be good for regeneration as well. I'm not sure if there's much value in going further, would need a lot of units, be challenging for battery range and probably not competitive on travel time.
Skelmersdale, good size population, currently lacks a rail connection.

 

[Callumphillips]

So rather than "massive investment" (which you claimed earlier) Liverpool needs an all-zones rail-only pass instead of a Merseyrail-only one, and something more doing about bus ticketing?

Of course not JUST a ticket revamp. Bus and Rail need better integration. We've got this notion in our heads of 'car = no need for public transport', but as much as it's popular, it's not how you solve transport problems. It's a Tory notion and nothing more. The creation of bus lanes and general improvement of bus services is one step towards making public transport more attractive, therefore reducing the amount of cars on the road, both improving bus punctuality and making life easier for motorists. After ticket reform, do the following.

Don't get me wrong, Kayla's whole idea is unrealistic, but electric-battery Class 777s aren't how you solve everything...

Firstly, new stations at the already-mentioned Headbolt Lane, Vauxhall, St James, Carr Mill and Woodchurch which would definitely go a long way in being a first step.

Secondly reinstate the Burscough curves as you say, a next step towards providing better overall connections and increasing service possibilities, as this should be central next step.

Next, begin to reopen more rail lines as time goes on, starting with Skelmersdale for example, the largest town in the North West without a rail connection. The do the Canada Dock branch I say, then go on and do the North Liverpool Extension line between Hunts Cross/Halewood and Aintree with a new low level station at Broad Green. Then do the Southport and Cheshire Lines Extension Railway, relaying the track bed from Old Road to Woodvale, before building a new connection between Woodvale and Ainsdale, connecting it and the Northern line.

Then, two much needed new stations at Cheshire Oaks and Liverpool John Lennon Airport (at the actual airport, not forcing passengers to rely on what is an unreliable bus service)...

Now, public transport is becoming more attractive to many car users overall, reducing traffic on the roads. Begin to expand and develop as it becomes more of a natural choice to the general public than what it currently is...

Btw Cronton, for example, definitely needs better public transport service, it has a high school, and it currently endures a poor punctuality, low-frequency bus service and needs better.

 

[wobman]

The provided map looks a bit 'jam for everyone' though I fear spread so thinly that it will never happen. Also, unless all of the new trains have batteries fitted the battery units will need focused on certain lines.

The obvious i.e. should be reasonable demand services look like.

Bidston to Neston, lots of commuters in Upton, Heswall and Neston who would be tempted to use rail by a direct service. A Woodchurch station would be good for regeneration as well. I'm not sure if there's much value in going further, would need a lot of units, be challenging for battery range and probably not competitive on travel time.
Skelmersdale, good size population, currently lacks a rail connection.

So Are you saying neston as a terminus station ?
It's just logistically the battery units would have to turn back at shotton, the station has facilities such as a ticket office.
It's got connections to the N Wales coast services and there's a turn back at Dee Marsh if they get the points signalled.

I know the Welsh government and Liverpool major have had high level meetings, the wag stating they want the services go all the way to Wrexham central.

 

[Ribbleman]

I suspect a lot of the battery funding was waiting a business case anyway, so if they can get easier access to cash for it then great. But I do hope there's something about expanding Liverpool Central in the pot too. It's been on NR's radar for a long time now with nary a peep.

News about the expansion of Liverpool Central seems to have died with the demise of the development that was planned for the land above. The additional platforms will be essential to safely deal with any increase in services and passenger numbers.

 

[D821]

News about the expansion of Liverpool Central seems to have died with the demise of the development that was planned for the land above. The additional platforms will be essential to safely deal with any increase in services and passenger numbers.

Liverpool Council bought some of the land to enable them to develop the station with a view to reopening. I think it's a long term plan, though. They're still earning money off the rent in the meantime.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool Council bought some of the land to enable them to develop the station with a view to reopening. I think it's a long term plan, though. They're still earning money off the rent in the meantime.

Fortunately for the time being there is still very little on top of the old station footprint - just modular Network Rail buildings, mostly, plus I think one block of flats at the very far end - so it would still not be hard to dig it up if needs be.

 

[507020]

News about the expansion of Liverpool Central seems to have died with the demise of the development that was planned for the land above. The additional platforms will be essential to safely deal with any increase in services and passenger numbers.

What makes sense to me for them to do would be to open out both 1970s single bore tunnels from Leeds Street as far Central to the same diameter as at Farnworth to allow 4 track running and 4 platforms at both stations with sufficient overhead clearances in the tunnels for potential future removal of the 3rd rail. To the south 2 conventional double track routes again with sufficient overhead clearances should be provided to Brunswick and Edge Hill. That seems like the perfect solution for all possible eventualities. They could even do one at a time meaning trains could terminate at Sandhills for a few weeks while they run a shuttle over a single track into Central, starting to use the first new tunnel while they bore the other and then continue to Edge Hill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What makes sense to me for them to do would be to open out both 1970s single bore tunnels from Leeds Street as far Central to the same diameter as at Farnworth to allow 4 track running and 4 platforms at both stations with sufficient overhead clearances in the tunnels for potential future removal of the 3rd rail. To the south 2 conventional double track routes again with sufficient overhead clearances should be provided to Brunswick and Edge Hill. That seems like the perfect solution for all possible eventualities. They could even do one at a time meaning trains could terminate at Sandhills for a few weeks while they run a shuttle over a single track into Central, starting to use the first new tunnel while they bore the other and then continue to Edge Hill.

Converting Merseyrail to OHLE would involve more than just those tunnels - there is a huge amount of infrastructure there that is too low for it, including a fair number of footbridges etc. Not insurmountable, but as a closed system it would be easier, if safety was a concern, to convert to bottom-contact third rail than to convert to OHLE.

 

[6Gman]

The provided map looks a bit 'jam for everyone' though I fear spread so thinly that it will never happen. Also, unless all of the new trains have batteries fitted the battery units will need focused on certain lines.

The obvious i.e. should be reasonable demand services look like.

Bidston to Neston, lots of commuters in Upton, Heswall and Neston who would be tempted to use rail by a direct service. A Woodchurch station would be good for regeneration as well. I'm not sure if there's much value in going further, would need a lot of units, be challenging for battery range and probably not competitive on travel time.
Skelmersdale, good size population, currently lacks a rail connection.

Nail meets hammer. On its head!

Third-rail the Great Central as far as sensible (Neston? the international border?) and hope batteries will get you to Wrexham and back. Perhaps opportunity charging during the Wrexham turnround?

Skelmersdale seems a good idea though I'm not sure how practical it is. (Where would the station - or stations? - be? I don't know the place so not sure how it would work.) Third-rail to the bay at Wigan (some clever clogs will work out how to fit in with 25Kv to Southport if it ever happens, or last-mile battery).

Two or three new stations if there's a sound business case.

A west-north Burscough curve plus some redoubling to allow Preston-Liverpool and Preston-Southport. I find it hard to believe there's enough demand to justify the south-west curve.

And that - frankly - will pretty much eat up any realistic budget.

 

[daodao]

I would extend the 3rd rail service terminating at Hunt's Cross as far as Gateacre, and the 3rd rail Kirkby service to Skelmersdale, and that's about it. These might need to be battery operated, given the aversion to 3rd rail extensions.