Possible Excess, how much

[s3an]

I have a super off peak return, Abergavenny to Paddington and i have used the Outward part.

Can I excess the return (PAD-AGV) from super off peak to off-peak?

If yes how much will it be?

Suoer off peak return is £65 and off peak return is £81.50 (I think)

If i can't excess what would be the cheapest option?

thanks

 

[LexyBoy]

I have a super off peak return, Abergavenny to Paddington and i have used the Outward part.

Can I excess the return (PAD-AGV) from super off peak to off-peak?

If yes how much will it be?

Suoer off peak return is £65 and off peak return is £81.50 (I think)

If i can't excess what would be the cheapest option?

thanks

Yes you can, it'll be £16.50. The queues at Paddington at that time can be long so get it done in advance if you can (at any staffed station, though some are better than others).

 

[s3an]

Even longer queues if there is a Wales home rugby match on the Saturday

I expect the later trains to be full of Irish supporters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Spoke to Train manager BEFORE getting on train and he said yes he would excess.

On train he said it would be £28 ish, which is ticket to Didcot and then super off peak valid from there. I explained the lexyboy way but was told he doesn't do that and to get off train. Any opinions?

To clarify a bit as I was in the process of having to get off the train when I posted the last bit. The TM said he doesn't do the excess that way and that I shouldn't tell him how he should do it and I should get off the train, or I now had to pay the full single fare. I asked why I couldn't just pay £16.50 and he just said again get off the train or pay full single fare.
He wasn't ever rude and neither was I

Am I at fault here?

 

[John @ home]

On train he said it would be £28 ish, which is ticket to Didcot and then super off peak valid from there. I explained the lexyboy way but was told he doesn't do that and to get off train. Any opinions?

This doesn't sound right. With flexible tickets, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage give you the right to pay the appropriate difference on the train if travelling by the correct route but at a time your ticket is not valid. When travelling with a Super Off-Peak Return, the appropriate rule is:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

Are you sure you travelled at a time the return portion of a £81.50 Off-Peak Return Abergavenny - London Terminals is valid? See Restriction GK. Today, it's valid on all services via Oxford and Evesham, and on services via Newport timed to depart London Paddington between 08:10 and 16:40, and from 18:31.

 

[s3an]

Yes, I was on an appropriate train for the fare. I won't say which one as it will identify the TM.

 

[John @ home]

Yes, I was on an appropriate train for the fare. I won't say which one as it will identify the TM.

Then what ticket were you sold? Please give the type, origin, destination, route and price printed on the ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

The ticket you held wouldn't be valid from Didcot on that train anyway!

Agree with John that you're entitled to an excess. In some cases a new ticket will be cheaper (as with Paddington to Reading/Didcot), perhaps this is why the TM is only familiar with selling a new ticket. It's not a complicated excess though.

 

[bb21]

As John @ Home has pointed out, you are entitled to an excess fare when travelling at a restricted time, if cheaper than a new ticket. It is included as part of the contract between you and the Railway companies when you purchased your ticket, so is not the guard's choice. I suggest that you get in touch with FGW regarding this incident as there might be a need for refresher training with some guards.

 

[s3an]

Then what ticket were you sold? Please give the type, origin, destination, route and price printed on the ticket.

I didn't get another ticket. I waited for the next South Wales train and spoke to the TM when he opened the doors and he just said it is was ok and jump on. I offered to pay when he came round but he again said no it's ok.
Fair play to him and I won't complain about the earlier one, because of that even though my journey was delayed.


Does the first TM make any money from the ticket sales? If he does then FGW need to make sure he doesn't profit by forcing customers to pay more than they need.

 

[John @ home]

Does the first TM make any money from the ticket sales? If he does then FGW need to make sure he doesn't profit by forcing customers to pay more than they need.

Whether he gains commission or not, FGW have a duty to train their ticket-selling staff properly. But it's difficult to force them to do that if you don't want to tell them on which train the incident took place.

If you do decide to contact them, there are forum members who would be willing to help you draft an appropriate letter.

 

[s3an]

The ticket you held wouldn't be valid from Didcot on that train anyway!

Agree with John that you're entitled to an excess. In some cases a new ticket will be cheaper (as with Paddington to Reading/Didcot), perhaps this is why the TM is only familiar with selling a new ticket. It's not a complicated excess though.

perhaps he 'phones up an RPI mate who gets on further down who gets some easy collars

I do try to get any excesses done at the Paddinton ticket office, but a Friday afternoon with a rugby international in Cardiff the next day isn't a good time. I have got the exact same excess done on the train, this time just got someone who wanted to sell me something more expensive and it seems not even appropriate and valid.

 

[s3an]

I did query this with FGW and the reply contained the following:

"I can confirm that we do operate a Buy Before you Board policy on our services. This means that if the station a passenger boards from has either a manned Booking Office or ticket vending machine, then the passenger is expected to make use of such facilities prior to getting on any train. This then allows them to buy their tickets at the appropriate rate. What this means is that even if the customer already has a ticket and is looking to pay an Excess Fare, the appropriate time-and-place for this is at the station Booking Office before boarding any train.

The Buy Before you Board is by no means a recent introduction, but has been in place for many years now. It's to this end that it's advertised via printed media at our stations, as well as on the likes of our website.

When we advise customers to resolve these matters at the station prior to boarding, we do not say this to be somehow officious. We need to be clear that, under the railway bye-laws, it's an offence to board a train without a ticket - even if the passenger had genuine intentions in the first place. Any passengers that do so are not entitled to Railcard discounts, off-peak tickets or any other special terms. Instead, they should have to pay the full fare for their journey - and in some areas can be subject to a Penalty Fare. So, we do have to recognise the seriousness of anyone found to be on-board the train without a ticket."

"In view of the policies in place, our Train Manager should actually have charged £197.00 for any new ticket issued on the train. Indeed, if any of our Revenue Protection Inspectors had found you in that situation, they would've charged a Penalty Fare from the outset, not even presenting the option of leaving the train at Reading."


any thoughts?

 

[bb21]

The reply is neither here nor there. They should be reminded of Condition 12 of the NRCoC which sets out clearly what should happen should a passenger travel at a restricted time.

If a Penalty Fare is issued in such circumstances then I expect it to be quashed promptly.

 

[LexyBoy]

Oh wow.

1. The Anytime Single would be the appropriate fare to charge if no ticket is held, and is £98.50. The £197.00 mentioned is the SOR.
2. A Penalty Fare cannot be charged for this journey as the origin and destination are not within a single penalty fares zone (maybe it would be possible for a PF to be issued to e.g. Didcot if "caught" before Didcot - I'm not too hot on PF rules though).
3. Their claim that it's your responsibility to obtain the correct excess before travel directly contradicts NRCoC condition 12
4. How exactly can one obtain an excess from a TVM (they've conveniently overlooked the fact that not all stations have booking offices which are open at all times). I think I can guess what their response might be if asked.

Overall a very disappointing and rather reactionary response (without knowing how your question was phrased). FGW are usually quite reasonable IME. Wonder if it was one of FCC's RPIs on secondment?


edit: Just had a bit of a look at the PF rules, and I'm a bit confused by NRCoC 12 versus the PF rules 7.6. The NRCoC states that a Penalty Fare can be charged for travelling at the wrong time with a time restricted ticket, whilst the PF rules state that a PF cannot be charged when the ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction - referring back to Condition 12!

 

[s3an]

i explained what had happened and that i had spoken to the TM on the platform before boarding the train.

i asked why the NRCoC was being disregarded and an attempt to overcharge me made.

i've just re-read the email and liked this part about not being charged the full fare:

"I am very glad that this was not the case, and that our Train Manager used his discretion in offering the discounted off-peak fare of £28.70 - even going as far as to consider breaking your journey up at Didcot Parkway. I know it is disappointing to have to pay anything higher than the £16.50 fare you wanted, but our Train Manager was unable to offer any further discount under the circumstances.

Indeed, whilst it's clear that you feel disappointed with our crew member, it does appear that they were already exercising discretion in your favour, in charging the lesser fare. So, as a matter of fairness our investigation would have to recognise this. It really does look like they were trying to do what was best for you in the first instance, albeit this wasn't what you had hoped for."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reply is neither here nor there. They should be reminded of Condition 12 of the NRCoC which sets out clearly what should happen should a passenger travel at a restricted time.

If a Penalty Fare is issued in such circumstances then I expect it to be quashed promptly.

if i hadn't come across these forums a while ago i would probably have just paid the £28.70 thinking that was correct because the TM said so. i had never heard of the NRCoC before i read these forums and that would apply to large numbers of other passengers too.

i have replied quoting Condition 12 of the NRCoC and expect a reply in a few weeks.

 

[Flamingo]

Put it into Avantex, excess will be the difference between what you paid and the new ticket (both journeys). Not difficult for the TM to work out.

I don't know who was having a problem with it, and TBH the reply you got didn't answer it either.

Ideally, sort it before travelling, but not too difficult to do on board.

RPI's don't come into the mix on Pad-Swa HST's, they are like the Loch Ness Monster - everybody has heard of them, but no-one has seen one.

 

[yorkie]

Condition 12 used to be clear but has now had some additional waffle inserted into it, so it is no longer clear.

A Penalty Fare can NOT be charged when a passenger requires a change of route excess, this is a myth. See Penalty Fares: A couple of situations where they cannot be charged, which also includes a discussion on wording of Condition 12.

As for the excess fares rules, they are detailed in RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements.

4.2.4 Excess procedures: change of ticket type

Change of ticket type excesses allow a journey to be made at a time when time and/or break of journey restrictions prohibit this. There is no penalty for buying on board even if there was opportunity to buy before boarding.

Charges

If bought from ticket office or on board with no opportunity to pay before boarding:

For Singles & Returns, the whole difference is charged
For one portion (Outward or Return) of a Return ticket, the FULL difference is charged. Alternatively, the passenger can buy the APPROPRIATE Single instead.
The difference is between the price paid and the APPROPRIATE ticket type of the route requested.
Railcard discounts ARE available

If bought on board where there was opportunity to pay before boarding:

As above: there is no penalty on board with this type of excess.

This is effectively what is stated in The Manual. FGW Customer Services may not want to be bothered to look up the correct information in The Manual, but they should look it up and they will find they are incorrect.

A polite reply asking them to look up what the instructions are in The Manual, should suffice.

If they still persist in giving out incorrect information, then let us know and we will escalate the matter as appropriate until FGW accept that the appropriate fare should be charged.

Yes, we all make mistakes, but it's unacceptable to keep on insisting they were right instead of simply looking up the correct procedure.

 

[s3an]

i have been on the telephone with them and asked to speak to a manager, who told me i should have been charged £197 because paddington is a penalty fare station.

i have asked for an email from him to confirm this and have been put on hold.

he has returned and said an email will be sent confirming what he told me. he did add that i should buy my ticket from the ticket office.

 

[LexyBoy]

Did you explain why this is incorrect? What do you intend to do with the email?

 

[s3an]

Put it into Avantex, excess will be the difference between what you paid and the new ticket (both journeys). Not difficult for the TM to work out.

I don't know who was having a problem with it, and TBH the reply you got didn't answer it either.

Ideally, sort it before travelling, but not too difficult to do on board.

RPI's don't come into the mix on Pad-Swa HST's, they are like the Loch Ness Monster - everybody has heard of them, but no-one has seen one.

I did explain how the £16.50 excess was calculated but he decided to kick me off the train because i shouldn't tell him how to do his job.

I try to get any excess done at the ticket office but there is a big gap after 16.15 for off peak and if i miss the 16.15 i might as well hang around for the 19.15 and not excess the super off peak.

i got kicked off the train and he could have got some RPIs or BTP to meet me and cause me more problems than being late.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you explain why this is incorrect? What do you intend to do with the email?

i did explain, but he stuck to the £197 because paddington is a penalty fare station.

i will use the email as part of an escalation. if a customer services manager doesn't know what the procedure is then there is something very wrong with FGW don't you think.

perhaps flamingo needs to be redeployed as a ticketing training instructor.

 

[bnm]

The initial TM was wrong. The response from Customer Services was wrong. You were unnecessarily delayed on your journey.

Keep complaining and escalating until you get a satisfactory response, including compensation for the delay, which was entirely the fault of the rail industry.

If people don't highlight these errors, nothing gets done, staff aren't made aware that they are acting outside the terms of the contract (NRCoC), and they will continue to do so in the mistaken belief that what they are doing is correct.

The next person might not be so lucky and could be interviewed under caution and have the stress of dealing with legal action.

That this sort of thing goes on, makes me really really angry. Woe betide any TM that tries to eject me from a train or threatens me with BTP when all I want is an excess on a time restricted walk-up ticket.

Just so we are clear: THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR A CHANGE OF TICKET TYPE EXCESS PURCHASED ON BOARD.

 

[yorkie]

i will use the email as part of an escalation. if a customer services manager doesn't know what the procedure is then there is something very wrong with FGW don't you think.

Indeed. And they're not the only rogue TOC. EMT are the same on this matter. Perhaps we need to go to the ORR, or is it the DfT, to report a franchise breach?

Anyway I know a couple of people who will be able to chase this up, if you can provide a reference number via PM.

 

[s3an]

The initial TM was wrong. The response from Customer Services was wrong. You were unnecessarily delayed on your journey.

Keep complaining and escalating until you get a satisfactory response, including compensation for the delay, which was entirely the fault of the rail industry.

If people don't highlight these errors, nothing gets done, staff aren't made aware that they are acting outside the terms of the contract (NRCoC), and they will continue to do so in the mistaken belief that what they are doing is correct.

The next person might not be so lucky and could be interviewed under caution and have the stress of dealing with legal action.

That this sort of thing goes on, makes me really really angry. Woe betide any TM that tries to eject me from a train or threatens me with BTP when all I want is an excess on a time restricted walk-up ticket.

Just so we are clear: THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR A CHANGE OF TICKET TYPE EXCESS PURCHASED ON BOARD.

i will keep chasing it.

he was convinced that the 'Paddington is a penalty fare station' overrode the on train excess.


18 months ago i was just a normal passenger, then i joined here and got sucked into the dark side, with split tickets, excesses, zero excesses and now my picture is probably on the wall in the TM office along with some of you lot

 

[island]

The new NRCoC makes it less clear-cut as to whether a change of ticket type excess can be obtained on board when there was opportunity to buy beforehand.

*dons asbestos suit*

 

[bnm]

If it's less clear cut then surely the interpretation that is more favourable to the customer should prevail.

 

[s3an]

I don't seem to be getting anywhere with customer services and need a way to escalate this.
I was promised an email, from a customer services manager, confirming that I couldn't excess on the train because Paddington is a penalty fare station. This has not arrived.

What is the next step?

 

[s3an]

I have another reply from customer service after my follow up email on 5th march.
below is an extract which explains why i and others are not allowed an excess on trains from certain stations. any comments?

"I can confirm that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage do make provision for a Train Company to allow for upgrades or Excess Fares on the train. However, we only allow for this at those stations without ticketing facilities.

Part of the reason for this is that ticket checks/sales only form one small part of the overall responsibilities of our Train Managers - their primary responsibility being to the operational running of the entire train they've been assigned to. This includes overseeing dispatch duties, attending to safety-critical procedures, managing performance demands and offering mobility assistance etc.

Our Train Managers are only provided with the hand-held ticketing machines only to offer ticketing services for those customers boarding at unmanned stations - as a supplementary measure, rather than representing an outright alternative to station facilities. So, if the station a customer boards at has dedicated Booking Office facilities, we do not see it as unreasonable to expect the passenger to use them. That way, it eases the demands on our train crew, and leaves them free to attend to their primary duties. Indeed, the Clerks at the station Booking Office are specialists in rail industry retailing practices, and so really are best-placed to help with changing any tickets (whereas retailing issues only form a lesser part of the Train Manager's overall training/duties).

As per our email of 27 February - and the stipulations of our Buy Before you Board policy - if the station a passenger boards from has a manned Booking Office, then the customer is expected to buy any upgrade or Excess before boarding a train. This is consistent with railway bye-law, and means our crew should not be issuing Excess Fares on-board the train for customer boarding from a station with a manned Booking Office. I appreciate that this will not always be as convenient as some customers would hope for, and I am truly sorry if this comes as a disappointment.

I appreciate that you may interpret the National Conditions of Carriage differently. However, the key phrase here would be that of "...this rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas..." Essentially, the Penalty Fare areas are those at stations with manned Booking Offices. So again, the rule is that if the station has a staffed Booking Office, then the customer is expected to make use of this to make any ticket changes prior to boarding. I'm sorry if our original email wasn't clear on this.

Given the way Excess Fares are calculated (the fare being dependent on the original ticket held) I regret that they cannot be issued by the automated ticket vending machines. Similarly, Excess Fares cannot be arranged via our website, simply due to the inherent limitations of such automated sales facilities. So, as much as I recognise and appreciate the frustration of having to queue at a Booking Office, the customer would have to do so in order to change their ticket."

 

[yorkie]

Make sure you lodge a complaint with Passenger Focus (but whether or not Passenger Focus have anyone who is knowledgeable about excess fares is questionable, but given the lack of a knowledgeable, truly independent watchdog, we have no real other option).

You could also ask them if what they have told you is what The Manual says (we know it isn't, but I'd be interested to hear what they say, and if they will lie to you).

Also they are in breach of Penalty Fare legislation. Does anyone know how to report this? I understand they can have their scheme(s) suspended if sufficient complaints are made (I recall this happened to Merseyrail a few years ago).

 

[bb21]

This scenario has nothing to do with Penalty Fares whatsoever so someone is sprouting bull I see.

 

[yorkie]

It's First Group Customer Relations, so I expect nothing less. I am genuinely surprised when they get it right.