Possible electrification schemes in the pipeline?

[Meerkat]

I dont know how they came to their conclusions, but it might have to do with the idea that electric freight would have far better acceleration/deceleration so that it could keep up with passenger services on ECML. In addition, they have wiring the Lincoln route as a medium term objective. But you're right, maybe they should be considered part of the same project.

Even electric freight isn’t going to keep out the way south of Doncaster is it, with the capacity issues and non quad bits?

 

[Halish Railway]

I didn't understand that as surely the freight going there goes round via Lincoln rather than up the electrified ECML??

But if the top speed of intermodal trains can be increased to 90 or 100mph then sending them along the ECML becomes a real possibility. It’s likely that these trains may have to slow down for platforms due to the excessive turbulence they’d create, but on the double track section between Stoke Bank and Doncaster that would only be an issue at Grantham and Newark Northgate.

The additional running line(s) at Woodwalton would also be a new bit of track that would make pathing freight trains much easier.

 

[Meerkat]

But if the top speed of intermodal trains can be increased to 90 or 100mph then sending them along the ECML becomes a real possibility. It’s likely that these trains may have to slow down for platforms due to the excessive turbulence they’d create, but on the double track section between Stoke Bank and Doncaster that would only be an issue at Grantham and Newark Northgate.

The additional running line(s) at Woodwalton would also be a new bit of track that would make pathing freight trains much easier.

I got the impression faster intermodals was an ambition that had had an unfortunate meeting with physics and economics?
Does anywhere run them faster than 75 - the buffeting must be immense, and those little wheels will be doing serious rpm!

 

[HSTEd]

I got the impression faster intermodals was an ambition that had had an unfortunate meeting with physics and economics?
Does anywhere run them faster than 75 - the buffeting must be immense, and those little wheels will be doing serious rpm!

Deutsche Bahn has 160kph container flats I believe.

I'm not sure an economic argument is particularly strong, the status quo likely only endures because freight operators are given very low track access charges.
The true value of a slow freight path is likely enormous on a railway dominated by increasingly high performance multiple units.

 

[Halish Railway]

I got the impression faster intermodals was an ambition that had had an unfortunate meeting with physics and economics?
Does anywhere run them faster than 75 - the buffeting must be immense, and those little wheels will be doing serious rpm!

The intermodal trains that use HS1 do 140kph/87mph.

The true value of a slow freight path is likely enormous on a railway dominated by increasingly high performance multiple units.

The difference between the status quo of a 66-hauled intermodal train and a 93-hauled equivalent will be astonishing though. Hopefully the pathing of a hypothetical faster intermodal train won’t be too different to pathing a Royal Mail Class 325.

 

[AndrewE]

The true value of a slow freight path is likely enormous on a railway dominated by increasingly high performance multiple units.

hence the value (to the National Economy/UK PLC, rather than by our current strange rules) of electric freight headed by 5MW locos throughout, rather than agricultural diesels crawling up Shap.

 

[HSTEd]

hence the value (to the National Economy/UK PLC, rather than by our current strange rules) of electric freight headed by 5MW locos throughout, rather than agricultural diesels crawling up Shap.

5MW is probably too low power for the modern era.

Locomotives in the CoCo weight class can likely achieve close to double that these days.

ALthough you might want a lower (sustained) power to save weight for batteries.

If those power electronic traction transformers ABB was pushing a decade ago work though you could likely have both.

 

[ac6000cw]

The intermodal trains that use HS1 do 140kph/87mph.

Are you sure - I've just looked at a selection of freight paths on HS1 this week on RTT, and they are all 'Pathed as Electric locomotive' and 'Planned for 75mph max' or 'Planned for 60mph max'. The class 92's are rated at 140kph/87mph top speed, but I suspect that was originally specified more for sleeper train use than for fast freight.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Not a new line but has there been any progress on West Coast Main Line power supply upgrades? Wembley to Euston has been pointed out many times as seriously constrained. There's no Voyagers left at Euston but I wouldn't be surprised if the 805s sometimes run diesel under wires.

 

[Snow1964]

Appears there is a Parliamentary Committee tomorrow (Wednesday 18 June)

Rail investment pipelines: ending boom and bust - Oral evidence​

In this inquiry, MPs are investigating how developing long-term, transparent and sequenced plans – or pipelines – could bring certainty and security to companies involved in improving the UK’s railways. 

Witnesses in this session will discuss how a long-term, cost-effective pipeline of projects needs a skilled workforce, and whether the certainty of having pipelines could in turn encourage companies to invest in the skills of their workers.

The cross-party Committee will ask whether factors such as the length of Network Rail’s five-year spending periods (control periods) and differences of opinion among changing political leaders have been barriers to long-term planning.

The Institution of Mechanical Engineers has said that while the number of engineers across sectors in the UK is rising, many firms still struggle to fill vacancies. In particular, the rail sector has an ageing workforce of engineers and technicians. The Institute also says there is a growing need for railways workers to develop digital skills.

Meanwhile, the National Skills Academy has suggested plans that looks 25-30 years ahead would be conducive to achieving net zero by 2050.

MPs are likely to ask how the sector can adopt longer-term skills forecasting, about the systems that are used in other countries, and how workers could be consulted on long term decisions made about procurement and investment in the railways.

Appears to be 09:15 with engineers, and 10:15 with unions

Wonder if they will use it to announce something, rather than just noting current boom and bust is expensive, inefficient, wasteful, and not productive.

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/22781

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wonder if they will use it to announce something, rather than just noting current boom and bust is expensive, inefficient, wasteful, and not productive.

Committees don't announce things afaik

 

[The exile]

Committees don't announce things afaik

No but a comment from the committee about boom and bust being a bad thing would be a good prelude to an infrastructure plan announcement - especially if it contained something that could be spun as a rolling (however slowly) programme.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Even the most stupid politician deep down knows boom and bust is a bad thing.

 

[Snow1964]

Even the most stupid politician deep down knows boom and bust is a bad thing.

But they don't usually take it to a committee in public to highlight it.

Thats why I wonder if something comes out, so not to look too bad will be announced (or something ongoing will be updated / recycled)

 

[The exile]

But they don't usually take it to a committee in public to highlight it.

Thats why I wonder if something comes out, so not to look too bad will be announced (or something ongoing will be updated / recycled)

It won’t be announced by the committee (though depending on who is appearing it might be announced to it). However, a committee condemning boom and bust is a very good reason for only announcing a limited, but long-term programme (“we don’t want a boom - but steady progress without the bust” is quite difficult to argue against).

 

[NCT]

Is it usual for ministers to lean on a committee to time the publishing of a finding a certain way so to make a government announcement look better?

 

[The exile]

Is it usual for ministers to lean on a committee to time the publishing of a finding a certain way so to make a government announcement look better?

No need to- as a minister you can be fairly certain they’ll condemn stop / go policies (abd can probably prime one labour member to do so ) and you can time your announcement accordingly (note - no-one seems to know when “this week” the infrastructure announcement is to be)

 

[Magdalia]

Wonder if they will use it to announce something

The purpose of Parliamentary Select Committees is to hold Departmental Ministers to account. Part of that is regular meetings with Ministers and senior departmental civil servants. Another part is conducting inquiries into policy issues, taking evidence, and producing reports. The taking evidence part is what is happening here. Ministers will be expected to respond when the Select Committee publishes its report.

Ministers make and announce policy, not Parliamentary Select Committees. Strictly speaking that should be initially via a statement to Parliament, but the modern convention seems to be a media event and photo opportunity in the morning and a statement later in the day. Anything involving infrastructure will involve pictures of the Minister on a construction site wearing an orange jacket and a hard hat.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However, a committee condemning boom and bust is a very good reason for only announcing a limited, but long-term programme (“we don’t want a boom - but steady progress without the bust” is quite difficult to argue against).

That is a very good thought. No boom just nice and steady progress so no bust either! Excellent.

 

[Dennyboy]

Aren't there schemes in Scotland?

Although I welcome all current (no pun intended) Borders Rail Link progress and further proposals I'm disappointed that opportunity wasn't seized to electrify it prior to opening.

 

[John R]

Although I welcome all current (no pun intended) Borders Rail Link progress and further proposals I'm disappointed that opportunity wasn't seized to electrify it prior to opening.

It cost enough to rebuild, and it’s amazing it was reopened at all. Some people are never satisfied.

 

[Class 317]

Although I welcome all current (no pun intended) Borders Rail Link progress and further proposals I'm disappointed that opportunity wasn't seized to electrify it prior to opening.

Given the length and being a low traffic usage line it's a great case for use of battery trains. The cost of electrification is going to be very high versus the much cheaper and better value for money battery option.

 

[Brubulus]

Given the length and being a low traffic usage line it's a great case for use of battery trains. The cost of electrification is going to be very high versus the much cheaper and better value for money battery option.

Put in place a charger at Tweedbank, alongside utilising existing electrification and that is all that is needed for a battery service on the route.

 

[N1]

Put in place a charger at Tweedbank, alongside utilising existing electrification and that is all that is needed for a battery service on the route.

Latest update I am aware off is Tweedbank and Portobello feeder stations now planned to be completed by March 2027, ahead of electrification.

 

[AndrewE]

Put in place a charger at Tweedbank, alongside utilising existing electrification and that is all that is needed for a battery service on the route.

I'm afraid that if the current service patterns continue that won't be much use as trains turn round in 5 or 6 minutes - although the Greenford shuttle has only that or less. It's possible, I suppose, but proper electrification is the real answer.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm afraid that if the current service patterns continue that won't be much use as trains turn round in 5 or 6 minutes - although the Greenford shuttle has only that or less. It's possible, I suppose, but proper electrification is the real answer.

Tweedbank station does have two platforms however, so for the cost of having a unit sit at Tweedbank all day you can get all the time needed to use a charger.

The cost of a charger and the ongoing cost of another unit (with no additional distance related costs) is likely to be far below the cost of electrification.
Probably orders of magnitude lower.

You might need someone to sit at Tweedbank to handle the plugging and unplugging of charging cables, although the guard might be able to do that whilst the driver gets set up in the 'new' train.

 

[AndrewE]

Tweedbank station does have two platforms however, so for the cost of having a unit sit at Tweedbank all day you can get all the time needed to use a charger.

The cost of a charger and the ongoing cost of another unit (with no additional distance related costs) is likely to be far below the cost of electrification.
Probably orders of magnitude lower.

You might need someone to sit at Tweedbank to handle the plugging and unplugging of charging cables, although the guard might be able to do that whilst the driver gets set up in the 'new' train.

In this modern age I am surprised that an extra unit would even be considered just to allow time for recharging, in fact I would have thought it would be used as a justification for not adopting the system...

and I thought the Greenford thing did it itself. ("just put on the handbrake and push a button")

 

[HSTEd]

In this modern age I am surprised that an extra unit would even be considered just to allow time for recharging, in fact I would have thought it would be used as a justification for not adopting the system...

Electrification of the Borders Line would cost north of a hundreds million pounds, a few million pounds for a unit is a rounding error next to that.

and I thought the Greenford thing did it itself. ("just put on the handbrake and push a button")

Well yes, but that also makes use of a ground based charging solution. Not sure that would be considered entirely acceptable in the long run.
I was thinking more along the lines of the Megawatt Charging System standard being developed for goods vehicles. Assuming we select the correct standard, that hardware will be a commodity item relatively soon.

 

[Brubulus]

Electrification of the Borders Line would cost north of a hundreds million pounds, a few million pounds for a unit is a rounding error next to that.

Well yes, but that also makes use of a ground based charging solution. Not sure that would be considered entirely acceptable in the long run.
I was thinking more along the lines of the Megawatt Charging System standard being developed for goods vehicles. Assuming we select the correct standard, that hardware will be a commodity item relatively soon.

I was expecting OHLE to be installed for the length of the platform, or a ground based solution which is only live when a train is in contact. Assuming a battery has a max charge rate of 5C, it can leave Edinburgh at 90%, arrive at Tweedbank on 25%, charge to 75% and arrive back in Edinburgh on 10%.

 

[Zomboid]

Well yes, but that also makes use of a ground based charging solution. Not sure that would be considered entirely acceptable in the long run.

It's only live when under the train.

Though for any bi-mode battery train the charging will be done through the pantograph, and most likely at 25kV.