Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Mollman]

There were Hazel Grove to Preston services operated by 2 x 150s before they were extended to Blackpool so there's obviously already a solution for 4 x 20m trains terminating at Preston.

They terminated in P1 then ran empty to the sidings north of Preston Station, generally they returned to P3.

 

[rebmcr]

Please forgive me if this has been asked elsewhere, but will the modified 'Flex' electro-diesel units be given a new TOPS class number? If not, it appears that such allocations are becoming ever more arbitrary.

It was raised earlier, I don't think anyone knows for sure but Class 219 was proposed.

There is plenty of precedent for "25kv + something" units to be numbered in the 3xx range. I don't think they'll change except to a subclass -- perhaps 319/5 or 319/9.

 

[themiller]

Only 24 EMU 319's meaning the existing diagrams plus 4 more.
8 bi mode 319's which Northern have not decided which routes they will operate (best guess) Manchester to Blackpool until it is finished but where then?

Barrow-in-Furness or Windermere to the airport perhaps.

 

[northwichcat]

Barrow-in-Furness or Windermere to the airport perhaps.

This thread is just like The Simpsons on Channel 4. Nothing new? Just keep repeating the old ones until something new becomes available.

 

[snowball]

The transformer for the 25kV is pretty heavy, containing as it does a massive lump of iron or steel.

Perhaps you could wrap the windings round the diesel engine?

 

[rebmcr]

Perhaps you could wrap the windings round the diesel engine?

With the pistons providing "dynamic field strength"!!!

 

[ac6000cw]

Perhaps you could wrap the windings round the diesel engine?

Just for reference, transformer core steel is special, not just any old steel or iron - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

 

[childwallblues]

I didn't think Liverpool-Stalybridge was going to be a diagram. The Liverpool-Chat Moss stopper is surely going to Piccadilly and all stops to the Airport, given that the TPEs and Northern Connect will all go to Victoria.

Latest that I have been told (from a reliable source) is that the LIV-MIA via Chat Moss stopper will be combined with the MAN-CRE via MIA stopper.

 

[sjoh]

Blackpool - Buxton was dropped as a through route due to unreliability, however there are a few of the Blackpool - Hazel Grove trains which do carry on through to Buxton in the peak. Bi-modes would allow these to continue, maintaining the link to Buxton from Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Oxford Road.

Eh? Definitely a few left!

EDIT: Just realised that you did indeed refer to these. Mybad!

 

[507021]

According to Richard Clinnick's Twitter feed, 319427 isn't scheduled to be converted to bi-mode at the moment, although it could be for any future orders.

 

[northwichcat]

According to Richard Clinnick's Twitter feed, 319427 isn't scheduled to be converted to bi-mode at the moment, although it could be for any future orders.

The ones being converted are:

319424
319431
319434
319442
319448
319450
319456
319458

Any further conversions will likely depend on the success of those conversions and how much interest there is in EMUs being converted to bi-modes.

 

[1179_Clee2]

The ones being converted are:

319424
319431
319434
319442
319448
319450
319456
319458

Any further conversions will likely depend on the success of those conversions and how much interest there is in EMUs being converted to bi-modes.

Porterbrook have stated that ALL conversions will be 319's that have had the TSI PRM mods, as some of the above have not been done are they being converted?

 

[northwichcat]

Porterbrook have stated that ALL conversions will be 319's that have had the TSI PRM mods, as some of the above have not been done are they being converted?

Those are the /4s which have transferred to Northern, with Richard Clinnick saying are the /4s which have transferred to Northern are the ones being converted.

 

[swt_passenger]

At present the signalling used wouldn't allow the traction return through the running rails...

Which is why I wrote there would have to be "follow up signalling changes". But these will be needed on the Richmond and Wimbledon branches anyway, when they are somehow resignalled whilst allowing Overground and SWT to carry on running.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres a great interview in Rail with the person in charge of the Flex program which goes through their thought process, alternatives they modelled, batteries would only have a 12-15 mile range and supercapacitors only a couple of miles, a full bi-mode (with battery powered turbo boost) would take too long to engineer so they came up with this model where off the wires the two diesel engines are always working at a constant output to feed the 750v DC line (with a few cab control modifications) and the train simply thinks its operating on third rail. They modelled the performance and it was capable of operating 8 return journeys from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton with similar timings to a 15x unit. Windermere is the obvious branch but its being considered during Transpennine electrification for diversions and Great Western are interested for some of their currently Sprinter planned semi-electrified turns.

The main market the ROSCO seems to be targeting is Welsh 2020 pacer replacement though I wonder if the Welsh people would be happy with second hand units (though may end up being all the Assembly can afford)

 

[modernrail]

How much of Manchester - Southport is or will become wired? Is there a case for wiring up to Wigan Wallgate and using flex on diesel from there to Southport?

 

[notlob.divad]

The problem of wiring Wallgate is that the station is the other side of the low bridge from the existing wires. It will be possible to do what you are saying, but major surgery will be required to the bridge and station.

 

[Moonshot]

How much of Manchester - Southport is or will become wired? Is there a case for wiring up to Wigan Wallgate and using flex on diesel from there to Southport?

my understanding is that the line from Bolton to Wigan N West is being wired up....if that is the case , the wires would only fall short of Wigan Wallgate by about 200 metres or so. How that would work operationally with 319 bi modes I have no idea though.

 

[najaB]

....if that is the case , the wires would only fall short of Wigan Wallgate by about 200 metres or so. How that would work operationally with 319 bi modes I have no idea though.

Give it some welly in the run up to the gap and hope!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Give it some welly in the run up to the gap and hope!

I was going to say that dropping the pan and coasting might indeed be an option, particularly if all the units involved are 319 Flex and therefore if they did get stuck they could run up the engines to get into the platforms. Trains coast further than that over neutral sections.

Prize (!) for the first driver to forget and take the pan out on the bridge, though.

 

[Moonshot]

I was going to say that dropping the pan and coasting might indeed be an option, particularly if all the units involved are 319 Flex and therefore if they did get stuck they could run up the engines to get into the platforms. Trains coast further than that over neutral sections.

Prize (!) for the first driver to forget and take the pan out on the bridge, though.

Assuming that the section from Wigan Wallgate to Southport doesnt get wires, I suppose the easiest way is to stop at Ince for a moment, drop the pan, then carry on using the diesels

 

[furnessvale]

I was going to say that dropping the pan and coasting might indeed be an option, particularly if all the units involved are 319 Flex and therefore if they did get stuck they could run up the engines to get into the platforms. Trains coast further than that over neutral sections.

Prize (!) for the first driver to forget and take the pan out on the bridge, though.

Probably cheaper in the long run to put dead OHLE through the bridge to guide the pan down before such mishaps occur.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Or send them all to North Western and suggest Shank's pony to Wallgate. At least while you are dealing with the bridge at Wallgate. Out of Wallgate towards Ince is uphill isn't it, and from a stand at Wallgate? I'm not sure coasting will work. The Wallgate bridge isn't in great shape from the look of it so sooner rather than later it will need a bit of fixing.

 

[Moonshot]

Or send them all to North Western and suggest Shank's pony to Wallgate. At least while you are dealing with the bridge at Wallgate. Out of Wallgate towards Ince is uphill isn't it, and from a stand at Wallgate? I'm not sure coasting will work. The Wallgate bridge isn't in great shape from the look of it so sooner rather than later it will need a bit of fixing.

No its not ....it sprung a major water leak not so long back which stopped traffic

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the wires would only fall short by about 200 yards why not just extend the bit to be wired into the station? It can't be more then about half a dozen extra masts per track

 

[Starmill]

Because the bridge is so low!

I seem to remember that the possibility of electrifying to Wigan Wallgate was considered as part of the Lostock Jn - Wigan Nortn Western electrification and decided against for this very reason.

 

[Elecman]

Yes you could wire to just short of the problem bridge then dead wiring through the bridge to guide the pan downwards to avoid pan bash. From Ince it is quite sharply downhill about 1 in 90 from the junction through the bridge into Wallgate station so coasting a short distance would be no problem at all.

 

[Hophead]

Yes you could wire to just short of the problem bridge then dead wiring through the bridge to guide the pan downwards to avoid pan bash. From Ince it is quite sharply downhill about 1 in 90 from the junction through the bridge into Wallgate station so coasting a short distance would be no problem at all.

And on the return?

 

[AM9]

And on the return?

The train would pull away under diesel power and as soon as possible, switch to ac, probably less than 100m from the Wallgate bridge. The gradient rises at about 1:50 for the first 100m then less than 1:100 to the flat where the crossover from the WCML is at nearly 400m from the bridge (just over Chapel Lane underbridge).
Pulling away might be sluggish for less than 1 minute, but once the ac was available, the 319s could easily make the climb as they manage a 1:29 start from standstill in regular Thameslink core service.

 

[modernrail]

So it sounds like, whatever the best wiring solution, the Southport route could be a good option for the flex? Does the speed profile of a flex on diesel fit well with what would be the unwired portion of the route? Am I right in thinking the whole of the rest of the route to Manchester Airport will be/is wired? I do think it is important within the ever present budget constraints to consider how to displace not only the pacers, but also some of the 150x. I don't love the 319s, but I do prefer them to a 150. Their use on a route that is about 60% wired (guess) will also unlock operational and carbon savings by using the wires. I would much prefer a Renatus "flex" to the 319 flex if that is feasible. If it is, I would also like to see every possible diesel unit down south replaced and sent up north to take out further 150x. The Uckfield branch would be my first target.