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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

LNW-GW Joint

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It does not say they will be used to Buxton in the RAIL article it says

If performance on diesel is good, a Blackpool-Buxton route would be an interesting bi-mode route, making one integrated service from two currently rather messy shorter runs.
All sorts of other options emerge too.

I wonder if the electric performance of 319s is on the table (ie traction motor upgrade).
 
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ac6000cw

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The transformer for the 25kV is pretty heavy, containing as it does a massive lump of iron or steel.

Yes - that's partly why the motor car weighs about 50t versus about 30t for each trailer.

My point was that the new equipment is going under the trailers, which adds more dead weight to haul around without increasing the motor car axle load (which would in theory improve traction in poor conditions), so overall you end up in a worse situation versus the straight EMU version.
 

Mollman

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If performance on diesel is good, a Blackpool-Buxton route would be an interesting bi-mode route, making one integrated service from two currently rather messy shorter runs.
All sorts of other options emerge too.

I wonder if the electric performance of 319s is on the table (ie traction motor upgrade).

Blackpool - Buxton was dropped as a through route due to unreliability, however there are a few of the Blackpool - Hazel Grove trains which do carry on through to Buxton in the peak. Bi-modes would allow these to continue, maintaining the link to Buxton from Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Oxford Road.
 

ainsworth74

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Metrocentre to Morpeth might be a logical place to employ them? If the range is as good claimed they could even drop onto some other services in that area.
 

Bletchleyite

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Metrocentre to Morpeth might be a logical place to employ them? If the range is as good claimed they could even drop onto some other services in that area.

Chathill is another, after all that only needs a DMU for the reversing siding.

Northern has absolutely loads of good applications for bi-modes.
 

47802

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Metrocentre to Morpeth might be a logical place to employ them? If the range is as good claimed they could even drop onto some other services in that area.

That was my thought as well but arn't most Morpeth services due to become through stopping services to Carlisle though
 
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Bletchleyite

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Big problem
They are going to be based at Allerton not Heaton

The initial ones are, but who says there won't be more if they are successful? They would provide a useful enhancement of capacity, allowing a reduction in 2-car operation which in my view needs to die out other than on a few branch lines, as well as reduce the need for under-wires diesel operation.
 

najaB

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Metrocentre to Morpeth might be a logical place to employ them? If the range is as good claimed they could even drop onto some other services in that area.
Only problem is that I suspect they are a bit too big for the passenger loads on that route.

That said, if they ran for a while it might tempt people out of their cars and off the buses.
 

1179_Clee2

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The initial ones are, but who says there won't be more if they are successful? They would provide a useful enhancement of capacity, allowing a reduction in 2-car operation which in my view needs to die out other than on a few branch lines, as well as reduce the need for under-wires diesel operation.

agree totally

Lets look at the 319 flex from a different angle, have Northern got enough EMU's
Original plan 12 additional 319 EMU's
New plan 4 additional 319 EMU's and 8 bi mode 319's
EMU's 1 to extend Liverpool to Preston back to Blackpool + 3 for local Manchester to Blackpool
5 EMU's get handed back to Porterbrook in 2020 in addition to the 17 323's
This means ALL 17 current 323 units have to be replaced with CAF 331's
I suspect that Northern are going to have to change the unit cascade it said would happen when it took over the franchise
 
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northwichcat

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Blackpool - Buxton was dropped as a through route due to unreliability, however there are a few of the Blackpool - Hazel Grove trains which do carry on through to Buxton in the peak. Bi-modes would allow these to continue, maintaining the link to Buxton from Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Oxford Road.

They won't need to continue as from the next recast they'll be 2tph terminating at Hazel Grove even at peak times.
 

northwichcat

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The initial ones are, but who says there won't be more if they are successful?

If the rumours are true DfT are providing an additional subsidy to cover the huge difference in costs between leasing a normal 319 and a bi-mode 319 but that subsidy will only be in place until the North West electrification is completed.
 

47802

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If the rumours are true DfT are providing an additional subsidy to cover the huge difference in costs between leasing a normal 319 and a bi-mode 319 but that subsidy will only be in place until the North West electrification is completed.

But by completed do they mean to Blackpool or the bits to Windermere and Wigan which now seem to be on the back burner?
 
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lejog

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But by completed do they mean to Blackpool or the bits to Windermere and Wigan which now seem to be on the back burner?

As I posted a few pages back.

The lines that Northern can get extra funding for rolling stock via a contract change if electrification is delayed past an unpublished date are indeed Windermere, Blackpool to Preston, Preston to Manchester, Bolton to Wigan and Victoria to Stalybridge.

I really doubt these units will be used elsewhere, at least until electrification is complete (maybe not even then unless Northern get extra EMUs allowing these to be released from their original planned routes).
 

Jamesrob637

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The initial ones are, but who says there won't be more if they are successful? They would provide a useful enhancement of capacity, allowing a reduction in 2-car operation which in my view needs to die out other than on a few branch lines, as well as reduce the need for under-wires diesel operation.

You've hit the nail on the head. Two coaches is okay on a rural line outside of peak times and holiday season. That's all it's good for in the late-2010s

For example at Heaton Chapel this morning;

Chester to Manchester: 2 cars and rammed
Buxton to Wigan: 2 cars so I get the Crewe to Manchester which is 3 cars (should be 6; why don't Northern double up 323s à la London Midland?)
Hazel Grove to Manchester: 2 cars and rammed
Buxton to Clitheroe: 2 cars and rammed
A normal 319 could work Stockport or Hazel Grove to Piccadilly stopper and back all day without the need for extra electrification thus freeing up one Sprinter to strengthen a service from 2 cars to 4
Therefore, scenes like the beginning of last week when trains roared through stations they should have otherwise called at due to a lack of coaches would become history.

To stay perfectly on topic, a great example for the Flex 319 would have be the morning Crewe to Bolton prior to electrification of the line north of Manchester, as it would only have to use diesel for a slower part of its journey and freed up 2 Pacers (line speeds south of Manchester are higher than those onwards to Bolton). However, by the time the Flex 319s are ready, this stretch will have been electrified :D

(In Northern's defence, in evening peak, the 17:23 from Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is actually a 323 and not a 2-car Sprinter, which I think is the only time an electric currently visits HG?)
 

notlob.divad

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Given:
A) the slow progress of refurbishment.
B) the apparently worse than expected condition of some of the DMUs, and
C) the large number of EMUs that without homes will be heading to the scrapper.

Assuming, this concept is a success, could we actually see the 319s being retained by Northern and potentially even more, to run on some of the totally unelectrified routes. There must surely be some maintenance benefits from having consistent units with optional additional power units.

Whilst I accept the likely hood of higher leasing costs, if the cost of refurbishing some of the DMUs is beyond economically repair. This could surely provide a neat solution.
 

northwichcat

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Chester to Manchester: 2 cars and rammed

Unfortunately despite the huge increase in loadings and that apparently old Northern planned for the line to mainly class 156 operation once the 319s were in service (which didn't work out due to 156s being used to indirectly cover the loss of 170s to Chiltern), the proportion of 2 car Pacer operated services has increased recently.

Crewe to Manchester which is 3 cars (should be 6; why don't Northern double up 323s à la London Midland?)

Not enough 323s to allow that.

A normal 319 could work Stockport or Hazel Grove to Piccadilly stopper and back all day without the need for extra electrification thus freeing up one Sprinter to strengthen a service from 2 cars to 4

Would it though? If Buxton services ran to Blackpool instead of Hazel Grove services that would increase the length of some services operated by 4 car DMUs and not necessarily provide extra capacity on the Buxton line services which are in most need of extra capacity.

(In Northern's defence, in evening peak, the 17:23 from Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is actually a 323 and not a 2-car Sprinter, which I think is the only time an electric currently visits HG?)

It was previously 2 x 142s which ran to Chinley and because it no longer extends to Chinley a South TPE service was strengthened to 6 cars with a Chinley call added with the 142s being used to free up Sprinters to run former TPE North West services. Hence, why lines like the Mid-Cheshire have had capacity reductions on some services despite rising passenger numbers. You mentioned rammed morning services but the 16:59 Chester to Manchester service is most worse - a 2 car 142 (when previously a crowded 2 car 150) and on Friday evenings that can load 250+ passengers.
 

Mollman

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agree totally

Lets look at the 319 flex from a different angle, have Northern got enough EMU's
Original plan 12 additional 319 EMU's
New plan 4 additional 319 EMU's and 8 bi mode 319's
EMU's 1 to extend Liverpool to Preston back to Blackpool + 3 for local Manchester to Blackpool
5 EMU's get handed back to Porterbrook in 2020 in addition to the 17 323's
This means ALL 17 current 323 units have to be replaced with CAF 331's
I suspect that Northern are going to have to change the unit cascade it said would happen when it took over the franchise

Only 3 for Manchester - Blackpool? What about the Blackpool - Hazel Grove service?
 

northwichcat

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Only 3 for Manchester - Blackpool? What about the Blackpool - Hazel Grove service?

Hazel Grove to Blackpool is a temporary service. Services from Liverpool should continue to Blackpool but are terminating at Preston until 319s can run to Blackpool due to the DMU shortage caused by Chiltern taking the TPE 170s. Once the Liverpool services run to Blackpool again Hazel Grove services will terminate at Preston again.
 

thealexweb

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Hazel Grove to Blackpool is a temporary service. Services from Liverpool should continue to Blackpool but are terminating at Preston until 319s can run to Blackpool due to the DMU shortage caused by Chiltern taking the TPE 170s. Once the Liverpool services run to Blackpool again Hazel Grove services will terminate at Preston again.

Class 319s cannot fit in the south facing bay's at Preston. So it remains to be seen what will happen to these services post May 2018.
 

1179_Clee2

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Only 3 for Manchester - Blackpool? What about the Blackpool - Hazel Grove service?

Only 24 EMU 319's meaning the existing diagrams plus 4 more.
8 bi mode 319's which Northern have not decided which routes they will operate (best guess) Manchester to Blackpool until it is finished but where then?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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8 bi mode 319's which Northern have not decided which routes they will operate (best guess) Manchester to Blackpool until it is finished but where then?

The first 319 Flex is delivered in Dec 2017, by which time Preston-Blackpool will have closed for upgrades until March 2018.
Liverpool-Stalybridge might be a better place to start.
 

47802

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The first 319 Flex is delivered in Dec 2017, by which time Preston-Blackpool will have closed for upgrades until March 2018.
Liverpool-Stalybridge might be a better place to start.

Well assuming the project is delivered on time of course, and Network rail run to time with Electrification:lol: there is a short period between March and May where Blackpool N will be open but still Diesel.
 

notlob.divad

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The first 319 Flex is delivered in Dec 2017, by which time Preston-Blackpool will have closed for upgrades until March 2018.
Liverpool-Stalybridge might be a better place to start.

I didn't think Liverpool-Stalybridge was going to be a diagram. The Liverpool-Chat Moss stopper is surely going to Piccadilly and all stops to the Airport, given that the TPEs and Northern Connect will all go to Victoria.

Stalybridge could well see 319 Flex units, as could Blackpool services to both Liverpool and Manchester between March and May. So with 8 coming assuming 7 working at anyone time could it be 3 diagrams Blackpool -Liverpool and 4 Blackpool-Stalybridge.
 

THC

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Please forgive me if this has been asked elsewhere, but will the modified 'Flex' electro-diesel units be given a new TOPS class number? If not, it appears that such allocations are becoming ever more arbitrary.

THC
 

najaB

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Please forgive me if this has been asked elsewhere, but will the modified 'Flex' electro-diesel units be given a new TOPS class number? If not, it appears that such allocations are becoming ever more arbitrary.

THC
It was raised earlier, I don't think anyone knows for sure but Class 219 was proposed.
 

1179_Clee2

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The first 319 Flex is delivered in Dec 2017, by which time Preston-Blackpool will have closed for upgrades until March 2018.
Liverpool-Stalybridge might be a better place to start.

My best guess would be Manchester to Blackpool would be electrified in stages throughout 2018 rather than turning the power on for the whole route in May 2018 (Blackpool coming last) a partially completed route would be ideal for a bi mode train.
 

northwichcat

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Class 319s cannot fit in the south facing bay's at Preston. So it remains to be seen what will happen to these services post May 2018.

There were Hazel Grove to Preston services operated by 2 x 150s before they were extended to Blackpool so there's obviously already a solution for 4 x 20m trains terminating at Preston.
 

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