Poor modern train toilets

[Liverpool 507]

As a former train cleaner, it is easier to clean metal toilet basins as they block very rarely. I used to dread cleaning toilets on units with porcelain toilets (142s, 319s and 323s before PRM mods) as they blocked easily and didn't lock out if the water tanks had dried out. CETing units with non vacuum flush also took forever and is quicker on those with vacuum toilets.

 

[skyhigh]

The toilets on the emr class 158s are not fit for use anymore.

Why?

 

[Mzzzs]

Why?

Outdated
at least one thing is broken.
often find them very dirty
loose panels
sink is small

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I've noticed on the new 197s if you try to dry your hands, the sensor for the hand drier is too close to the water sensor and you just end up getting wetter hands!

I had exactly this on a CrossCountry 170 a couple of weeks back. I expect it's the same or similar tap/soap/dryer unit.

 

[Doomotron]

I was on a GA 720 yesterday, and the sliding door on the accessible loo would not stay shut - luckily the poor woman who wanted to use the loo had yet to sit down to commence proceedings.

Personally I think the most functional if not the most upmarket on-train loo I've used in the last few years was on a SE 466 - manual "slam door", simple lock, wide enough door to easily get in and out (not PRM compliant obviously), enough water in the vacuum loo to keep the bowl clean, press button tap with decent water flow and temperature, and a slightly raised lip across the sink front to stop any water sloshing on to the floor. Oh and a wall mounted fairly powerful hand dryer (typical of restaurant loos).

Very decent IMO.

I also found the frosted window to be very nice in the Networkers, having some might in there was a nice change.

 

[antharro]

The 442s also had the frosted window. I think it was fairly common on BR stock; I recall SWR's 158s and 159s having it, and I think 315s and 317s.

 

[dk1]

Outdated
at least one thing is broken.
often find them very dirty
loose panels
sink is small

I suppose they serve a purpose at times of need although I do find them really outdated now in comparison with new rolling stock especially 755s. I must admit that on my patch EMR keep them nice & as clean as possible.

 

[fandroid]

Porcelain was used due to it being made to last, and still look new 50 years down the line. I don't think the older design engineers were worried about one or two extra pounds of weight on la bog.

I seem to remember porcelain WC bowls being normal on the East Coast mainline both on IC140s and HSTs. They always looked good and I never saw a chipped one.

I recently read a Hitachi report on attitudes to public transport. Toilets were highlighted as an area of concern, many people are turned off from using them (particularly the accessible toilets) for two reasons; noise and the fear of the door opening while 'in use'.

I believe that the standards for toilets on new stock now require mechanical locking, not the worrying push button.

The ludicrous splashing problem that the narrow hand basins have on the GWR and East Coast Hitachi trains could be mostly solved by changing the angle on the water nozzles to point more towards the backplate rather than straight down.

 

[william.martin]

The disabled toilets on 172's are a bit well known for faulty locks

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Paper towels would be great, but there are various prohibitive reasons why they're not widely used. The cost of paper is through the roof and as a single use product is unsustainable. The units would require filling at turnaround and in transit putting pressure on an already time-poor process and the units would need a full redesign for waste disposal, as well as a lack of storage on many modern units. Add on top the paper detritus that would be left all over the place, it makes it a no go. But fully agree on asthmatic dryers resulting in the 'trouser dry' process being infinitely preferable!

The last time I was on a Class 222, I was blessed with the option of either the hand dryer (cannot comment on whether or not it was "asthmatic" as I didn't use it) or some wonderful paper towels.

Was rather impressed and pleased with the toilet offering considering the rest of the train was quite literally falling apart...

 

[Jozhua]

The IETs are the strongest in terms of bathroom offering in my experience - some may find the 'space saver' toilets annoying, but I much prefer having the extra capacity - plus two right next to each other massively reduces the chance of any long waiting times. If you don't like them still, as always, the accessible bathrooms are still available! The fit and finish is the highest quality in those, actually feeling like a rather premium option.

What tends to bug me is that toilets always seem to be left untouched during refurbs. The only exception being the new bathrooms fitted to 150s, 156s, etc during the PRM drive. 170 toilets are looking pretty dated these days.

Toilet provision strikes me as rather weak for the 195s and especially 331s, where there can be as few as one bathroom per three carriages, made worse when said bathroom is out of order. Otherwise, I rather like those trains.

Of course there is the 220/221, which has the ventilation system that pipes the smell of the waste storage tanks directly into the main passenger compartment, so everyone can feel like they are in the bathroom. Works out quite well if you can't get to it, due to being crushed in like it's a Tokyo metro line (except you are on it for 4 hours, not 4 minutes...).

 

[Krokodil]

The Azuma/IET dryers are probably the best of any train hand dryers and do actually dry your hands

Hear hear. It's about the only good thing I have to say about the units.

One bugbear I have with many designs is that the labels aren't very accurately placed. They tell you in which order the soap/water/dryer are placed, but the graphics seem to be designed with no regard for the actual space between each outlet. Therefore I end up having to look underneath to find out where the tap and its sensor actually are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2023 ==

Of course there is the 220/221, which has the ventilation system that pipes the smell of the waste storage tanks directly into the main passenger compartment

Nicely warmed up by the exhaust pipe too!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I believe that's a function of them being compliant with the relevant standards. You're supposed to be able to sit on a disabled toilet, do you business and then reach the handwashing facilities without needing to stand back up from the toilet. I agree it makes it a bit more uncomfortable but there is some method to the madness!

The Azuma/IET slim line toilets are annoying. The sink is probably a perfectly adequate size but the water is fed from such a great height that it of course spills everywhere! Why they couldn't put the outlet for the water about 15cm lower is beyond me! Also bring back paper handtowels! At least make it possible to dry my hands rather than having an asthmatic ant blowing on them like basically all train hand dryers do.

This brings me to the question of why didn't the rolling stock manufacturers bring in firms such as Healthmatic to design a useable but compliant to the regulations toilet? I've used the public toilets in Selby (who are built by Healthmatic) and I cannot see why such a design cannot be incorparated into train design. It would address the current issues of poorly positioned sinks / hand dryers and also the toilet paper dispenser itself.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 185 non-accessible toilets are ridiculously small in my opinion, I could barely move last I deigned to use one. And the 195/331s have a complicated locking system and seem to get visibly grimy very easily - poor colour choices by CAF perhaps!

TPE definitely have improved on the 397 toilets though, and the Pendo toilets are still decent.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Not the worst I've ever used tho - I used the toilets on a GWR 150 (150001, I believe) when it was on the Basingstoke - Reading, and the hand dryer was pretty much just a noise making device. Same for the ones on SWR's 158 and 159s, but at least they have semi-decent taps.

The EMU hand dryers work better as they work off 110V not 24V for 15x. This is the hand dryer 15/3161 it has a little matrix radiator inside which blocks which stifles the heat side and because of the voltage being run off 24V isn’t very powerful. If the voltage through that coach drops below the minimum required to keep the brakes off then that’s games over and you get dragging brakes. SWR changed to a vanity unit around 2014/5.

 

[class68fan]

Toilet on 315

The 442s also had the frosted window. I think it was fairly common on BR stock; I recall SWR's 158s and 159s having it, and I think 315s and 317

 

[EdChap]

For comparison, I travelled on the VSOE last year and found their toilets to be very civilised. Highly recommended!!

 

[Halwynd]

Push button locks - I just don't trust them, certainly wouldn't go for a No 2 in one. Saw one in action in a Pendolino once... the door just kept opening and closing all the way to Euston. If I can find one with a proper physical lock, fine - no matter how small and cramped.

Another bugbear: toilets in the passenger compartment - very unhygienic. British Rail put toilets in the vestibules of Mk1/2/3 stock for a reason.

 

[Blindtraveler]

All the Hitachi units seemed and develop a very spongy subsiding floor in all the toilet compartment after a while. It took awhile to happen on the 395 but is now now.and and not at all long to happen in the small toilets on IET units and recently noticed collapsing floors in the accessible toilet on ScotRail 385. I am fraid I can't agree with the IET hand dryer being the best on the network, that title rests for now with the 390 and the Virgin refurbished voyages.

By far my biggest complaint however is is the multitude of different positions for door operating and other control buttons levers and sensors. A regular blind man's headache. I also get very rapidly fed up with lack of water or being full or all the other faults that could cause them to go out of service. We could do with a fleet of sludge pumping mobile units that go round emptying tanks in a a controlled odour three-way at at terminal stations. I know some units don't have a long turn around and it might present a challenge for a full IET set for example Burt it really wouldn't be difficult on other stock especially that with small tanks

 

[Doomotron]

All the Hitachi units seemed and develop a very spongy subsiding floor in all the toilet compartment after a while. It took awhile to happen on the 395 but is now now.and and not at all long to happen in the small toilets on IET units and recently noticed collapsing floors in the accessible toilet on ScotRail 385. I am fraid I can't agree with the IET hand dryer being the best on the network, that title rests for now with the 390 and the Virgin refurbished voyages.

By far my biggest complaint however is is the multitude of different positions for door operating and other control buttons levers and sensors. A regular blind man's headache. I also get very rapidly fed up with lack of water or being full or all the other faults that could cause them to go out of service. We could do with a fleet of sludge pumping mobile units that go round emptying tanks in a a controlled odour three-way at at terminal stations. I know some units don't have a long turn around and it might present a challenge for a full IET set for example Burt it really wouldn't be difficult on other stock especially that with small tanks

I'm pretty sure the spongy floor is as intended. It helps keep you stable when standing up when the train is bumpy.

 

[Skie]

The 390s do now have great sink units after Virgin upgraded the dryer. Decent water sensor and allocation, obvious soap dispenser and a nice strong jet dryer. Water can be a bit scalding though!

Most other trains suffer from multiple flaws, be it infuriatingly hard to trigger sensors, a thimble of water when you do trigger it, treacle like soap that can’t be washed off with the water it wants to give you and a horde of hamsters being squeezed of air to dry your wet hands.

I fully expect First to “upgrade” the 390 toilets one day by cutting out a hole in the body for you to stick your hands out to dry them, being the cheap buggers they are.

 

[kkong]

The cost of paper is through the roof and as a single use product is unsustainable. The units would require filling at turnaround and in transit putting pressure on an already time-poor process and the units would need a full redesign for waste disposal, as well as a lack of storage on many modern units. Add on top the paper detritus that would be left all over the place, it makes it a no go.

I can't believe that the cost of paper towels factors anywhere near the top (or middle) of whole system costs for toilets for TOCs.

Look up the bulk costs of kitchen roll / toilet paper for the likes of Amazon's own brand "Presto"; this grade of paper is not expensive.

The ScotRail HSTs have paper hand towels and I much prefer those to "hot air" hand dryers.

There are also other personal hygiene uses for paper towels than wiping your hands, which hot air dryers are no substitute for.

 

[Mikey C]

I can't believe that the cost of paper towels factors anywhere near the top (or middle) of whole system costs for toilets for TOCs.

Look up the bulk costs of kitchen roll / toilet paper for the likes of Amazon's own brand "Presto"; this grade of paper is not expensive.

The ScotRail HSTs have paper hand towels and I much prefer those to "hot air" hand dryers.

There are also other personal hygiene uses for paper towels than wiping your hands, which hot air dryers are no substitute for.

It's not the cost of the towels that is the issue.

It's the cost of having to regularly refill them, and empty the basket. And indeed checking them regularly, as they might get used faster one day than another. Plus the mess from anti-social behaviour.

 

[Bikeman78]

The Azuma/IET slim line toilets are annoying. The sink is probably a perfectly adequate size but the water is fed from such a great height that it of course spills everywhere! Why they couldn't put the outlet for the water about 15cm lower is beyond me! Also bring back paper handtowels! At least make it possible to dry my hands rather than having an asthmatic ant blowing on them like basically all train hand dryers do.

Spot the Blackadder fan! Older toilets typically had a pipe or nozzle that stuck out of the back wall. I could see exactly where the water was going to go. For some reason, most modern toilets have a wall above the sink with the nozzle coming out of the bottom. I cannot see the tap, or the sensor that makes it work, when standing up. Why is this deemed to be the way forward?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

I recently read a Hitachi report on attitudes to public transport. Toilets were highlighted as an area of concern, many people are turned off from using them (particularly the accessible toilets) for two reasons; noise and the fear of the door opening while 'in use'.

To make it as bad as possible, the control buttons are out of reach of anyone sitting on the throne. Especially embarrassing on 150s because the door faces down the saloon.

 

[Jozhua]

Seeing the old royal carriages in National Railway Museum a few months ago made me think maybe we should bring back freestanding bathroom furniture on trains!

That said, jokes aside, there is probably scope to make train bathrooms a little easier to refit/refurbish in the future when required.

Nicely warmed up by the exhaust pipe too!

Of course! Keeps the cabin cosy

 

[yorksrob]

It's not the cost of the towels that is the issue.

It's the cost of having to regularly refill them, and empty the basket. And indeed checking them regularly, as they might get used faster one day than another. Plus the mess from anti-social behaviour.

But all those things are true of bog roll - which just gets used in place of paper towels if the hand dryer isn't up to scratch.

The best train toilets currently are the mk4's, although they were less good after Virgin replaced the paper towels with a hand dryer.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But all those things are true of bog roll - which just gets used in place of paper towels if the hand dryer isn't up to scratch.

Toilet paper is bad enough at causing a blockage but at least it's designed to dissolve in water, paper towels would seriously damage the plumbing on trains. And we all know that stuffing a huge wad of paper towels down the loo is the first thing kids would do on late night trains.

 

[Mikey C]

On a positive note, I did like the wall covering on an LNWR 350 toilet I used last week, designed to look like traditional tiles

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a positive note, I did like the wall covering on an LNWR 350 toilet I used last week, designed to look like traditional tiles

Vinylling the inside of the compartment is a great anti vandal measure. Shiny vinyl is harder to graffiti to start with, the patterns mean it doesn't show up as well, and if it is graffitied it can be pulled off and replaced.

 

[HarryF]

Vinylling the inside of the compartment is a great anti vandal measure. Shiny vinyl is harder to graffiti to start with, the patterns mean it doesn't show up as well, and if it is graffitied it can be pulled off and replaced.

Agreed and wish Thameslink would stick some vinyl in the 700 toilets