Pontefract Baghill

[FHarwood]

Hello there,

I'm doing some research into Pontefract Baghill station, and how it has been run down by successive authorities. I believe it now only sees two trains per day in each direction.

Could someone give me a bit of background on when & why this process of gradual abandonment began? I'd also be very interested to find out what the level of service was like in the 60s or 70s.

Thanks, in advance, for your help!

 

[wbbminerals]

In the 70s and 80s I think it was served by expresses from Birmingham (:?) to York. My uncle used to drive those trains. Sorry I don't have any more info.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think the decline came in the late 70s and 80s when the remaining InterCity trains between Sheffield and York began to run either via Leeds or Doncaster too, as opposed to direct via Baghill. It remains the shortest (and could easily become the fastest) route between the two cities, but the attraction of either Leeds or Doncaster has pulled almost all traffic away from it. To the best of my knowledge the current pattern of stopping services has been the same for the past few years.

 

[Anvil1984]

To be the fastest between York and Sheffield it would need a lot of work done on linespeeds especially in the Ferrybridge ares. Current quickest route is via Doncaster

 

[martinsh]

I think the decline came in the late 70s and 80s when InterCity trains between Sheffield and York began to run either via Leeds or Doncaster, as opposed to direct via Baghill. It remains the shortest (and could easily be the fastest) route between the two cities, but the attraction of either Leeds or Doncaster has pulled almost all traffic away from it. To the best of my knowledge the current pattern of stopping services has been the same for the past few years.

The Sheffield- York main line was NEVER via this route. It the late 70s it was via the old Midland main line - diverging at Manvers, then via Cudworth and Castleford. I think the Pontefract route had speed restrictions due to mining subsidence.

Even then the service was VERY sparse, 3 or 4 trains per day - and there were only 2 intermediate stations between Rotherham and Church Fenton ! [ Moorthorpe was the other one ]

Would be interested to know if the line EVER had a decent service.

 

[142094]

I remember a few years ago one of the bridges on the line was found to have moved due to subsidence - line was shut for a few days to put it right.

 

[scarby]

If I recall correctly, during summers in the 1970s, maybe even very early 80s there were two daily trains from somewhere in West/South Yorkshire, to/and from Scarborough. They used to arrive around 10-11am and depart at around 5pm, catering for day-trippers. I have a feeling that one of these called at Pontefract Baghill, not 100% sure, though.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Hello there,

I'm doing some research into Pontefract Baghill station, and how it has been run down by successive authorities. I believe it now only sees two trains per day in each direction.

Could someone give me a bit of background on when & why this process of gradual abandonment began? I'd also be very interested to find out what the level of service was like in the 60s or 70s.

Thanks, in advance, for your help!

I used to live in Rotherham and had many day trips to York with my Dad as a kid in the 70s and early 80s. There used to be a regular service between Sheffield and York which stopped at Pontefract Baghill-it was one of the principal stations. I remember being very excited at York once to see an info board for an 'intercity' service to Birmingham calling at Pontefract and Rotherham (amongst others). It was a big thing to see a loco and coaches calling at Pontefract instead of the usual DMU. If I remember correctly it was at Fridays Only tea-time train. Of course, in those days Rotherham had a full intercity service with trains to most of the UK!

 

[mountainmike]

Checking the 1975 timetable the service was as follows:
Dep Pontefract Baghill
07.53 M-S Sheffield -York
09.09 M-S Sheffield -York ( in summer extended to Scarborough )
09.22 SO (summer)Sheffield - Bridlington
11.13 M-S Sheffield - York
14.03 M-S Sheffield - York
15.28 SO (summer) Paignton - Newcastle
17.13 M-S Sheffield -York
18.23 M-S Sheffield -York
18.45 SO (summer) Newquay - Newcastle via Sunderland
21.55 M-S to York
22.48/22.53 SX/SO Sheffield -York
All times at Baghill

Similar service southbound with summer Saturdays to Tenby, Paignton,Birmingham,Leicester and an overnight Friday to Penzance

Let me know if you want more detail of s/b timings

 

[Welshman]

The Sheffield- York main line was NEVER via this route. It the late 70s it was via the old Midland main line - diverging at Manvers, then via Cudworth and Castleford. I think the Pontefract route had speed restrictions due to mining subsidence.

Even then the service was VERY sparse, 3 or 4 trains per day - and there were only 2 intermediate stations between Rotherham and Church Fenton ! [ Moorthorpe was the other one ]

Would be interested to know if the line EVER had a decent service.

Sorry, but Sheffield-York expresses used to go this way!

In 1962, there were expresses from Sheffield Midland to York at 12.06am[Mons only],12.50am,, 9.50am, 11.34am, 12.54pm, 1.36pm. 2.40pm, 6.34pm and 9.41pm; and from Sheffield Victoria to York at 1.41am[Mons only],3.43am [Mons excepted], 8.17am and 6.20pm.

Most of these were Midland services from Bristol/Birmingham- York/Newcastle. The 6.20pm from Victoria was the 11.16am from Bournemouth West to Newcastle, which had come via the old GC line.

There was a corresponding timetable southbound.

Mondays- Fridays Pontefract Baghill had services at:-
12.53am to Darlington;
7.53am local dmu to York;
9.10am to Scarborough Central;
10.43am to Newcastle;
11.40am local dmu to York;
12.24 pm to York;
3.43 & 6.43pm local dmus to York;
7.15pm to Newcastle;
7.22 & 10.33pm to York.

And in the reverse direction:-
8.07 & 9.30am locals to Sheffield Midland;
10.27am to Cardiff General;
10.54am to Bournemouth West;
12.46pm local dmu to Sheffield Midland;
1.22pm & 2.57pm to Bristol Temple Meads;
4.55pm local dmu to Sheffield Midland;
5.51pm to Birmingham New St;
6.4pm [Fridays only] to Penzance and Newquay;
8.13pm local dmu to Sheffield Midland;
9.29pm to Birmingham New St;
10.9pm to Bristol Temple Meads [with sleeping accommodation!];
10.53pm to Swindon.

Try getting a sleeper to Bristol or a through service to Newquay now!!

As you say, they were diverted away later because of mining subsidence problems, then later still the markets of Leeds and Doncaster became more attractive as journey-times were speeded-up. AFAIK, one XC service still goes this way today, though, for route-retention purposes.

 

[wbbminerals]

AFAIK, one XC service still goes this way today, though, for route-retention purposes.

And when is that?

 

[Welshman]

Correction:-

AFAIK, the 1925 SO Newcastle-Birmingham New St used to, until 10th December 2011!

Thank-you.

 

[Eagle]

AFAIK, one XC service still goes this way today, though, for route-retention purposes.

Not in the current timetable (unless it's an ECS).

 

[balne-wonderer]

It always amazes me how many decent sized towns have lost their rail service (and stations) over the years yet good old 'Ponte-Carlo' retains three stations.

 

[4SRKT]

Mining subsidence caused traffic to be diverted away via Normanton, Cudworth and Wath. Doncaster became the obvious route once the Selby diversion had been opened. Despite this, there was a DMU roughly every two hours in the 1980s of my youth. After Rotherham Central opened, the Sheffield > York DMUs were the only things that called at Masbrough for a few years before it was closed. Via Leeds takes ages, and it's only now that there are two XC trains per hour that it makes sense to run a frequent service that way: quite a few NESW workings used to terminate at Leeds (or Bradford) rather than run through to York or Newcastle.

 

[martinsh]

Anyone any idea how much time could be saved by running non stop Sheffield - York via this route, rather than via Leeds or Doncaster ?

 

[Eagle]

Anyone any idea how much time could be saved by running non stop Sheffield - York via this route, rather than via Leeds or Doncaster ?

Given the speed limits on this line compared to the ECML, and Voyagers' high acceleration and top speed, I'd say via Pontefract would actually add time compared to via Doncaster.

 

[142094]

Anyone any idea how much time could be saved by running non stop Sheffield - York via this route, rather than via Leeds or Doncaster ?

Line speeds are pretty poor in parts, which is why the York - Sheffield stopper takes ages.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think on an XC it would be an hour via the S+K from York to Sheffield. The 1501 stopper is timed for 1hr 26 but uses a 75mph Pacer, has 8 intermediate stops (including 3/4 mins waiting time at Pontefract) then also goes via / stops at Rotherham Central adding another few mins. Using a Voyager non stop which can do 125 from just after York to just after Colton then 90 to Sherburn (or there abouts IIRC) then via Masborugh should shave a load off but still Ferrybridge slows it all down

 

[142094]

I've been on a 142 that way which waited for a good 10 minutes at Ponte and also a few at Moorthorpe, so might not be as slow as I first thought.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Went that way on a voyager in june. (the S0 service mentioned before)
Tediously slow, but i think we were timetabled quicker between york and sheffield than the doncaster route. (i am almost certain i will try find my timetable)

 

[Marton]

Not in the current timetable (unless it's an ECS).

That is confirmed by http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/intro.htm which has it in 2011 but not 2012

Before 2007 it is not mentioned, was it the usual route then? I am sure it was when I was in Sheffield in the 70s

2007
NT trains between Sheffield and York in Table 33
1759 SO Bristol Temple Meads - York
1615 SSuX Paignton - Newcastle
0646 SO, 2025/2026 SSuX Newcastle - Birmingham New Street
0616 SSuX York - Bristol Temple Meads
[i.e. VT trains between Sheffield and York not shown to call at Doncaster, Wakefield or Leeds]

2008
XC trains between Sheffield and York not shown to call at Doncaster, Wakefield or Leeds:
Until 7 September 2008:
0650 SO Newcastle - Bristol Temple Meads
2026 SSuX Newcastle - Birmingham New Street
1615 SSuX Paignton / 1800 SO Bristol Temple Meads - Newcastle
0616 SSuX York - Bristol Temple Meads
From 8 September 2008:
1545 SSuX Bournemouth - Newcastle
1845 SSuX Edinburgh - Birmingham New Street
1625 SO Plymouth - York [note: runs via Doncaster SSuX]
0616 SuX York - Plymouth

After that just the Saturday only service till the current timetable

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I caught the 11.05 York to Sheffield train last Saturday (formed of an ex-Merseyrail class 142, but that's another story).

I was disappointed, but not altogether surprised, to see NO-ONE getting on or off at Pontefract Baghill. For saying that the station is so poorly served by trains, it is not in bad condition; better than some stations which have a better level of service.

If XC get their way and end up routeing all their services via Leeds, then the Pontefract route could once again come into it's own, as an hourly limited-stop service (say, alternating Church Fenton/Sherburn-in-Elmet, then Pontefract Baghill, Moorthorpe, Swinton and Meadowhall) would then provide the fastest direct service between York and Sheffield. Adding a Rotherham stop is a bit time-consuming, and good connections for Rotherham should be available at Moorthorpe or Swinton.

Once TPE is electrified west of York, it could also be a logical move to extend the service to run to / from Scarborough), thus giving Scarborough better connections to places beyond York.

 

[Marton]

Some times from 1984

d Sheffield 0919, Arr York 1016
d Sheffield 1110, Arr York 1209
d Sheffield 1358, Arr York 1453

fastest 55min, all under 60

Today the fastest is 51min 0754 and 1847, but the average is 60

Makes me wonder why it is not used - freight? subsidence? market share of Leeds and Doncaster?

 

[bluenoxid]

The problem is that really it should have shut a long time ago. The station is a bit of an oddity and the route suffers because most of West Yorkshire accesses the XC rail network through Leeds.

In addition, Pontefract has some pretty good roads through the area as it sits where the A1 meets the M62.

I have mentioned this before but I would advise closing Baghill and mothballing it and using one of the Knottingley terminators to run to York rather than trying to keep this oddity rolling a long. However, if the demand was there for additional trains through the Sheffield North area (Moorthorpe), I would suggest its reinstatement but only where the case stands up and not because of political, heritage or policy intertia and knee jerk responses.

I would like to see this route investigated before the Northern Rail franchise is retendered.

The line really suffers because there are only two places to head once you join it northbound at Moorthorpe, Selby or York and neither jump up at me as places that really need to be served with a very expensive piece of rolling stock.

 

[tbtc]

Makes me wonder why it is not used - freight? subsidence? market share of Leeds and Doncaster?

All XC are interested about is XC (same with every franchise being interested only in their own share of markets).

So running via Baghill would lose some of the Sheffield - Doncaster/Leeds market and some of the Doncaster/Leeds -York market. There's not much incentive for them to give up their current share of these busy routes, as things stand.

Also, XC are trying to run *more* trains via Leeds, whilst the speeding up of East Coast trains (under GNER/NXEC too) means fewer Doncaster - Leeds services, so there's probably not a lot of scope to take any current services away from Doncaster or Leeds.

Maybe if Northern had the resources they could expand this service, provide maybe a token Nottingham - York service, something like that, but they are short of (decent) resources as it is, so there's no chance of beefing this route up in the next decade I'm afraid.

It's a chicken/egg route I guess. The slow speeds make it unattractive to run on, but the infrequent services make it uneconomic to spend huge money on improving the speed limit on...

 

[GNERman]

Anyone any idea how much time could be saved by running non stop Sheffield - York via this route, rather than via Leeds or Doncaster ?

Let's have a look at some stats...

Sheffield - Pontefract - York is 46 miles 25 chains
Sheffield - Doncaster - York is 51 miles 14 chains
Sheffield - Leeds - York is 64 miles 28 chains

Look at speed limits...

From Swinton where the Doncaster route diverges...

Swinton to Doncaster is mainly 75mph
Doncaster to York (Colton Junction) is 125

From Moorthope where the other two diverge

Moorthorpe to Leeds is 100 to Wakefield, then down to 50 a bit before the station, then 95, 75, 60, 40 at Holbeck. From Leeds it's 90, 70 at Micklefield for the chord, back up to 90, 100 from Church Fenton to Colton.

From Moorthorpe to York it's a mixture of 60 and 75 to Ferrybridge, down to 45 until Brotherton Tunnel, then 60 to Milford and then 80 through Church Fenton to Colton...

(none of these are totally accurate, they're just giving an broad overview of speed limits on the routes, so no scrutinising please...)

What you have to think is why XC would route trains this way. There's no population centres, unlike Doncaster or Wakefield and Leeds, and no good connections to other services...

 

[142094]

I was disappointed, but not altogether surprised, to see NO-ONE getting on or off at Pontefract Baghill. For saying that the station is so poorly served by trains, it is not in bad condition; better than some stations which have a better level of service.

It is to be expected - when there is two other stations that offer better services to the main attractor area (i.e. Leeds), then not many people will use the two services each way per day. One of the main flows I've seen when using the train was Baghill - Meadowhall, and Baghill to York.

 

[martinsh]

Let's have a look at some stats...

Sheffield - Pontefract - York is 46 miles 25 chains
Sheffield - Doncaster - York is 51 miles 14 chains
Sheffield - Leeds - York is 64 miles 28 chains

Didn''t realise that via Doncaster wasn't much longer than Pontefract

Look at speed limits...

Swinton to Doncaster is mainly 75mph

I should imagine the Swinton - Mexborough curve is a lot less than that though ? They must have speeded it up a lot since my day (early 80s) - used to be interminable

What you have to think is why XC would route trains this way. There's no population centres, unlike Doncaster or Wakefield and Leeds, and no good connections to other services...

I should imagine it's a lot easier to get pathing via Pontefract though !

 

[sidmouth]

I remember in the early 70s often travelling from either Sheffield to York via the S&k, or Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe. By the late 70s the trains had already been diverted via the Midland route.