Pontefract Baghill

[yorkie]

I should imagine the Swinton - Mexborough curve is a lot less than that though ? They must have speeded it up a lot since my day (early 80s) - used to be interminable

True, I'd take a rough guess at 50mph?

Look at speed limits...
From Moorthope where the other two diverge

Don't forget you don't slow down at Moorthorpe if you are going via Pontefract as that's the "main" line You didn't mention the really slow speed to get to South Kirby Jn.

Also going via Leeds often results in delays behind other services. South Kirby Jn - Leeds (and especially Wakefield Westgate station area) is very busy, and so is Leeds-Micklefield and you can get stuck behind stoppers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I believe swinton is 40 so not bad yorkie. I think one day it will get used but service levels at moment arnt quite demanding it.

I would one day XC terminate at leeds. With EMUS (maybe pendos or similar or siemens etc) operate manchester/leeds to edinburgh half hourly. With long distance XC (ie to scotland) going north through pontefract and reading newcastle going still via doncaster. Just my thoughts anyway.

 

[Lampshade]

Withdrawing the service would be unpopular due to the reduction of the already infrequent service at Ulleskelf and Sherburn-in-Elmet, unless they do something like Leeds - York via Pontefract/avoiding Knottingley.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Pontefract Baghill opened in 1879.

 

[142094]

Withdrawing the service would be unpopular due to the reduction of the already infrequent service at Ulleskelf and Sherburn-in-Elmet, unless they do something like Leeds - York via Pontefract/avoiding Knottingley.

Probably could just run extra York - Selby stoppers.

 

[Anvil1984]

Withdrawing the service would be unpopular due to the reduction of the already infrequent service at Ulleskelf and Sherburn-in-Elmet, unless they do something like Leeds - York via Pontefract/avoiding Knottingley.

That would be easyish to solve thiough by running 2 York - Blackpools / Hulls down the slow lines and vice versa. Sherburn actually gets a half decent Monday -Saturday service nowadays and has had a few services extra calling there than in previous timetables.

I wouldnt advocate withdrawing it though. It could possibly do with an extra 1 or 2 commuter serivces as the current times dont help anyone, but they would have to have a huge increase in journey time over the current stopper

 

[ashworth]

I caught the 11.05 York to Sheffield train last Saturday (formed of an ex-Merseyrail class 142, but that's another story).

I was disappointed, but not altogether surprised, to see NO-ONE getting on or off at Pontefract Baghill. For saying that the station is so poorly served by trains, it is not in bad condition; better than some stations which have a better level of service.

I think the main reason for no passengers boarding at Pontefract Baghill is that there is no service available for the return journey. I am sure that if there was a late afternoon train in the opposite direction from Sheffield to York passengers from Pontefract would use the service to both Meadowhall and Sheffield for shopping and work.

I have occasionally used the 0939 from Sheffield to York on a Saturday and noticed on most occasions a dozen or more people boarding at Pontefract for day trips to York. They have, of course, had to puchase the more expensive via Leeds ticket to enable them to make the return journey via a less direct route because again there is no late afternoon departure from York to Pontefract. It makes me think that large numbers could make the journey from Pontefract to York on a Saturday if there was a return train.

Just one extra service each way on this route departing from Sheffield and York at approx 5pm could result in outward morning services in both directions being considerably busier if passengers could use them knowing that there was a convenient return train.

 

[bluenoxid]

Perhaps one solution would be to run a service via Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield Kirkgate, Featherstone, Pontefract and then on to York. Alternatively, drop running via Barnsley and try to squeeze it between Moorthorpe and Kirkgate. It gives more journey alternatives and would allow the service to relieve a few crowded points on the network.

Some posters are fixated on speed and may not necessarily deliver the best return for a service.

 

[tbtc]

At the moment the DMU used on this service is at minimal cost to Northern as it uses a unit between 09.29 and 16.27 (which would otherwise have been sat spare off-peak at Sheffield).

Any additional services would need to find resources from somewhere else.

One minor change it'd be nice to make would be to run the service a couple of minutes later, as you can't get a cheap ticket until 09.30, so the last time I used it I didn't board until Meadowhall...

 

[Donny Dave]

Let's have a look at some stats...

Sheffield - Pontefract - York is 46 miles 25 chains
Sheffield - Doncaster - York is 51 miles 14 chains
Sheffield - Leeds - York is 64 miles 28 chains

Look at speed limits...

From Swinton where the Doncaster route diverges...

Swinton to Doncaster is mainly 75mph
Doncaster to York (Colton Junction) is 125

From memory (someone with a SA will be able to correct me here) ....

Swinton Curve 40mph.
Mexborough 60mph, increasing to 80mph just after the station to a point just before Conisborough station where it falls to 70mph.
Conisborough Tunnel 50mph.
Tunnel - South Yorks Jn 70mph.
South Yorks Jn 25mph.
Doncaster varies, depending on which platform and crossovers you use to get back onto the mainline.
Shaftholm Jn is 100mph IIRC, but apart from that, it's all 125mph until you get close to York.

 

[142094]

Any additional services would need to find resources from somewhere else.

Selby - Wakefield Grand Tour often has a spare unit attached, which could theoretically be used then dropped off ready for the peak out of Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

Selby - Wakefield Grand Tour often has a spare unit attached, which could theoretically be used then dropped off ready for the peak out of Leeds.

If Northern had a spare unit then one thing I'd suggest doing with it would be to reschedule the Grand Tour (so that the Pacers stick on the Wakefield trips whilst 155/158s are on the Manchester trips), rather than the twelve hour schedule where everything interworks (Manchester - Selby - Wakefield - Leeds - Manchester etc)

 

[crosscity]

In reply to Martinsh's question "Anyone any idea how much time could be saved by running non stop Sheffield - York via this route, rather than via Leeds or Doncaster ?"

My Railplanner tells me there are seven CC and one EM trains each way between York and Sheffield from next Sunday for four weeks. The excellent http://traintimes.im/ website confirms that these trains are running via this route and gives passing times at Milford Jc, Ferrybridge North Jn and Moorthorpe.

Journey times are between 47 and 56 minutes southbound and between 44 and 67 minutes northbound. This compares with CC weekday times of 65-70 minutes via Leeds (both ways) and 45-55 mins (southbound) and 51-59 mins (northbound) via Doncaster. Oddly EM only operates to York at the weekend (why is this?).

 

[142094]

Oddly EM only operates to York at the weekend (why is this?).

There is one service each way per week to York, originates at Leicester and in summer goes through to Scarborough. It then returns to St Pancras.

 

[bluenoxid]

Interesting. So the Doncaster alternative is approximately the same time. Well unless it hits capacity then this route will not find itself used as an alternative.

 

[Midlandman]

I travelled frequently between Newcastle and Derby in the early '70s. At first the route from Sheffield to York was via Pontefract Baghill, along the old Swinton and Knottingley Joint Line. When the Selby coalfield was identified, the National Coal Board and British Rail came to an agreement. BR would build the Selby diversion (todays ECML) and re-route Sheffield-York traffic via Cudworth - Normanton - Castleford and Church Fenton. In return, the NCB wouldn't dig coal out from underneath these routes.
After a while I got used to turning left at Wath Road Junction and heading for Cudworth but I couldn't help wondering what happened to the few souls who ALWAYS got on at Baghill when the Newcastle to Bristol express called there. Because it always did call there.. it might miss out such unimportant places as Durham or Chesterfield, but it always seemed to call at Pontefract. I often wondered (for modelling purposes) if this might not be the smallest station regularly called at by full length (think 9-11 coaches) expresses.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that Pontefract Baghill suffers because neither West Yorkshire nor South Yorkshire PTE's are interested in supporting services that mainly benefit passengers going outside their areas. If Pontefract was in South Yorkshire, it would probably have an hourly service to Sheffield. Similarly, if York was in West Yorkshire, there would probably a much better service between Pontefract & York.

The current service is pretty useless for anyone living in Pontefract who wanted to commute by train to work in either Sheffield or York. And for shopping trips from Pontefract, you can get a marvellous 53 minutes in Sheffield (or 71 minutes in Meadowhall.)