Policy Exchange propose to mostly remove route learning

[En]

What are the additional risks?

bullying + hazing , sexual assault, substance misuse are the most common cited

 

[ainsworth74]

You'll have evidence of that?

As per the RAIB:

111 The driver’s training did not provide them with sufficient understanding of the conditions that could be expected at this signal. This is a probable causal factor.

Report 06/2023: Train overspeeding at Spital Junction

Train overspeeding at Spital Junction, Peterborough, 17 April 2022.

www.gov.uk

 

[alf]

The diversionary route for main line trains between Woking & Waterloo signals trains left via a 30mph turnout at Byfleet & New Haw on to a mile long chord that joins the Weybridge via Staines to Waterloo line that many drivers who sign Woking to Waterloo also sign.
The long standing problem since BR day’s is that ASLEF will not allow drivers who sign both routes to take diverted trains via the one mile chord unless they are given time off the driving rota to learn it every six months.
The chord has no intermediate signals or stations. It has an easy to see footpath half a mile in.
Management should have the power to order drivers(& guards) without route knowledge of the chord to drive(work) it restricted to 30 mph.
Management & more recently the DfT have tried to enforce this before( but with the normal 40mph on the chord instead of my 30mph suggestion) but ASLEF have refused & locally threatened strike action.

This enforcement could be applied on longer diversionary routes like Ally Pally to Stevenage in daylight only with a speed limit around the lowest PSR.
These sort of sensible non route learned diversions would stop the railway closing down when someone is threatening to jump off a bridge at Welwyn or a swan is strutting along the Waterloo main line at Berrylands halting every single train between Bournemouth & the West Country to Waterloo & also most trains ex Portsmouth( as half the Pompey drivers do not sign the diversion via Effingham to Surbiton)

 

[12LDA28C]

1. I am not taking a diverging route so off I go cautiously

2. i am diverging to the left, is this correct, yes I proceed accordingly

3i am taking the second diverging route round the back of platform 1, this is not the route I want so I phone the signaller.

the white line is a dead giveaway

Exactly. And without the white line you would have given the same answers? I suspect not. Welcome to 'Route Knowledge'.

 

[LYradial]

Exactly. And without the white line you would have given the same answers? I suspect not. Welcome to 'Route Knowledge'.

Yes, but without route knowledge I might have missed the feathers and carried on on the green.

out of curiosity what would the distant have shown, single yellow or flashing?

 

[43066]

but I consider that a type of satnav telling the driver where he is and what is upcoming would be a usefull and productive aid.

It would be neither useful nor productive, as drivers need know the route well enough not to require one. Ask yourself: if it was easy as just using a satnav to eliminate route knowledge, why wouldn’t it already be done?

This has been done to death on many threads before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Yes, but without route knowledge I might have missed the feathers and carried on on the green.

Or (at some locations) you might have carried on on the green and missed the station altogether due to taking a non platformed line, or taken the wrong feather and been routed into a bay platform too short for the length of your train, or *ahem* have hit the junction at far too high a speed for the turnout causing significant damage, possibly derailing the train and/or injuring or killing people.

out of curiosity what would the distant have shown, single yellow or flashing?

It would depend on what you were being offered.

 

[En]

It would be neither useful nor productive, as drivers need know the route well enough not to require one. Ask yourself: if it was easy as just using a satnav to eliminate route knowledge, why wouldn’t it already be done?

Like the Germans do ?

 

[43066]

Like the Germans do ?

They don’t, though. That’s a gross simplification.

They also don’t drive on the UK’s Victorian network, with no speed signalling etc. It’s a nonsensical comparison.

As I say, if it was that easy, it would have been done long ago and train drivers would take the same time to train (and would probably be paid the same) as bus and coach drivers…

 

[eldomtom2]

They don’t, though. That’s a gross simplification.

German drivers absolutely can drive without route knowledge ("Streckenkenntnis"), as long as they stay below 60mph and local regulations don't prohibit it.

 

[renegademaster]

bullying + hazing , sexual assault, substance misuse are the most common cited

Is this a significant problem among train drivers? I hoped they where more genteel than squaddies

 

[class 9]

You'll have evidence of that?

Well the RAIB report mentions the fact that the company involved gave their Drivers considerably less route learning time tha other operators on the same line.

 

[TreacleMiller]

You'll have evidence of that?

RAIB certainly did.

Much of the training time is down to driver hours and how quickly they can build those hours. I was qualified 3/4 months ahead of others who started at the same time as me and was out being productive in 10 months.

Think the fastest it could reasonably be done where I am would be 9 months.

 

[Harpo]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Do you not at, its most basic, drive a train from one lamp on a pole to the next lamp on a pole, unchanged at its basis for 120 years. There must be a better way.

watch don coffeys video from Oxford to Worcester, that’s all that happens

Skilled workers often make their jobs look easy. A cab video from a dark, foggy, damp night in the middle of the leaf fall season would probably look much the same but (to those prepared to think a little deeper) it would quietly display how all of that hard-learned route knowledge is being put to work to keep time and stay safe.

 

[TreacleMiller]

As a starter.

 

[ainsworth74]

As a starter.

Dunno what you're getting at! The signals are all clearly visible and the stations are all illuminated! Just put the lever in go when the signals are green and stop when the station comes into view or the signal goes red! Simples!



(/s but hopefully that wasn't necessary )

 

[43066]

As a starter.

That brings back memories…

 

[LYradial]

We have strayed away a bit from my question about training an new recruit on a simple uncomplicated route to make his training
productive without waiting three years to do so.

we have several very experienced drivers here so out of curiosity can I ask do you actually drive a train by instinct, do you sit and “feel” was is happening, listen to the noise, judge the sensation when you brake, think ahead all the time and use your experience and perhaps knowledge of previous misjudgement to guide your actions.
do you get that sensation “that’s a bit unusual, what caused it”

this is what your trainee must learn by experience. can he be productive and free up an experienced driver for other tasks at the same time

 

[En]

German drivers absolutely can drive without route knowledge ("Streckenkenntnis"), as long as they stay below 60mph and local regulations don't prohibit it.

and here in lays the problem we have certain people in the UK maintaining that 'we've always done this ' is the only viable way of doing things, despite

1. practise on other , arguably 'better' railways in the Developed world
2. the fact that many other life and safety critical jobs have changed things dramatically - whether that's Commercial aviation through CRM or healthcare through a variety of things ( including cribbing bits of CRM)
3.a whole variety of other settings where traditional job demarcation and associated spanish practises have long been consigned to the bin

 

[The exile]

and here in lays the problem we have certain people in the UK maintaining that 'we've always done this ' is the only viable way of doing things, despite

1. practise on other , arguably 'better' railways in the Developed world

“We’ve always done this” is the negative slant on “this is where we’ve got to start from”. Other systems may be better, but whether they’re better enough to make the upheaval required to get there worth it is another matter.
In the case of German systems, a trawl back through the past few years will yield several examples of what we would consider unorthodox practice (to put it mildly) leading to fatal accidents, so “better” is not necessarily a given.

 

[12LDA28C]

We have strayed away a bit from my question about training an new recruit on a simple uncomplicated route to make his training
productive without waiting three years to do so.

we have several very experienced drivers here so out of curiosity can I ask do you actually drive a train by instinct, do you sit and “feel” was is happening, listen to the noise, judge the sensation when you brake, think ahead all the time and use your experience and perhaps knowledge of previous misjudgement to guide your actions.
do you get that sensation “that’s a bit unusual, what caused it”

this is what your trainee must learn by experience. can he be productive and free up an experienced driver for other tasks at the same time

It doesn't generally take 'three years' to train a new driver.

Much driving is indeed done on instinct, built up over many years of experience. Braking points for stations and speed restrictions for example are varied according to performance of the brake and the prevailing conditions at the time. Even in thick fog drivers can sense where they are by using cues such as jointed track, dips in the rail and so on.

 

[eldomtom2]

In the case of German systems, a trawl back through the past few years will yield several examples of what we would consider unorthodox practice (to put it mildly) leading to fatal accidents, so “better” is not necessarily a given.

But were those accidents the result of poor route knowledge?

 

[Starmill]

Do they give an example or a source for this? Especially as it's our drivers doing all that route learning.

I read this in the way you've read it at my first pass, thought it was strange and re-read it. I then moved on.

I've only just now realised that it doesn't actually mean the drivers of trains in other countries are more qualified, it instead is referring to more drivers (who are qualified). This isn't just confusing drafting but a bad measure - more drivers may be because they run more services or because they have a larger population.

The quality of English is OK, but it could be much better for a professional report. It's hard not to question the competence of the author when there are errors such as this in reading which multiple people are immediately making.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I find this passage particularly alarming:
"There is already, of course, a system on every train which stops it automatically if a signal is passed at danger - rendering the need for year-long route learning still more moot."
It appears that in the author's world train drivers can just blast round at top speed paying no heed to the signals because the train will stop itself at a red anyway and it'll all be fine...

It's quite cavalier isn't it? Especially when this system is a) relatively easy to override unintentionally or mistakingly b) not capable of protecting against all collision or track-induced risks c) not even fitted at all in many places.

 

[LYradial]

Indeed an example of training be skimped on.

It doesn't generally take 'three years' to train a new driver.

Much driving is indeed done on instinct, built up over many years of experience. Braking points for stations and speed restrictions for example are varied according to performance of the brake and the prevailing conditions at the time. Even in thick fog drivers can sense where they are by using cues such as jointed track, dips in the rail and so on.

Thanks for that.

so when the TOCs use three years as an excuse for their driver shortage as they did to the “think tank” they are telling porkies

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next

But one day, you drive this route on a sunny day; the next day you drive the route in the rain. You rest for a few days and your next shift requires you to drive the route in the dark. Then another time in thick fog... Surely you would need "route knowledge" in all conditions, including degraded weather conditions?

 

[The exile]

Thanks for that.

so when the TOCs use three years as an excuse for their driver shortage as they did to the “think tank” they are telling porkies

Add in the recruitment and suitability assessment process…

 

[Haywain]

Add in the recruitment and suitability assessment process…

3 years?? If it takes that long, there is something wrong. We have seen above experienced drivers saying that training can be completed in 9 months, and even if we allow 12, it is ridiculous to suggest that recruitment alone can take 2 years.

 

[MRIGuy]

This document appears to be wrote on the assumption that the railway only operates on a clear dry day with green signals. Its all well and good saying that consideration should be made for staff to become more reliant on technology but like everything else there is a potential for this technology to fail.

I also find the suggestion that learning the names of level crossings should be a thing of the past bizarre. Level crossings offer pedestrians and road users a way of crossing over the railway safely and quickly. If there is a failure of level crossing equipment then certain instructions may need to be followed in order to allow trains to run. If you do not know the name of a level crossing which has failed on a line of route where several crossings exist you suddenly introduce a risk that a train could pass through at speed with deadly consequences.

I'm not opposed to modernisation but consideration should at least be made to determine improvements with the input of people who work on the railway.

 

[Starmill]

and here in lays the problem we have certain people in the UK maintaining that 'we've always done this ' is the only viable way of doing things, despite

1. practise on other , arguably 'better' railways in the Developed world
2. the fact that many other life and safety critical jobs have changed things dramatically - whether that's Commercial aviation through CRM or healthcare through a variety of things ( including cribbing bits of CRM)
3.a whole variety of other settings where traditional job demarcation and associated spanish practises have long been consigned to the bin

I think everyone is in agreement that currently recruitment and training takes too long and costs too much, and it's fair to challenge this.

I would look at the following areas:

1. Duplication. Why do we need fourteen employers running separate recruitment campaigns and training schools, when we could have only one? Why do places like Newcastle have or need three driver depots with intercity trains all working over substantially very similar route between Edinburgh and York?

2. Traction. The total absence of any long-term rolling stock strategy means vast millions of pounds are wasted annually on traction training which wouldn't have otherwise been necessary. Also why has there been absolutely no attention whatsoever on commonality of controls and cabs for decades?

3. Workforce life cycles. Why has there been little focus in some parts of the industry to balance the age profile of the workforce? Recruiting only qualified or previously experienced drivers for two decades heavily biases your workforce, at a point in time, to late-career staff. This saves money now at the expense of money later.

Sadly, I don't see a single mention of any of this throughout the document.

Also, the expression "Spanish practices" is racist. Spain is a modern, dynamic economy very similar to the UK, France, Germany and so on. Picking on them without evidence is the definition of being racist. You wouldn't say something is "Irish" if it's broken or low quality, so don't say something is "Spanish" because you perceive it to be outdated.

 

[43066]

German drivers absolutely can drive without route knowledge ("Streckenkenntnis"), as long as they stay below 60mph and local regulations don't prohibit it.

Can they? I bet there’s more to it. Even accepting they can for the purposes of discussion, they aren’t doing it on the UK network which, as mentioned above, lacks speed signalling.

I could drive trains without route knowledge on the UK network at (perhaps) 30 or 40mph, and be confident of not derailing or spadding. I still wouldn’t know where junction indicators would take me, which platforms my train would fit into etc. I also wouldn’t exactly be able to keep to a timetable requiring trains to be driven at up to 125mph.

So what is the relevance of that to anything?

3.a whole variety of other settings where traditional job demarcation and associated spanish practises have long been consigned to the bin

Ah, Spanish practices again. I’m that includes route knowledge, in your view, and that of many Daily Mail readers.

There is clearly little point in knowledgeable forum members contributing their knowledge to this discussion, as certain people on here have already decided route knowledge isn’t necessary and that we could just use a satnav.

 

[LYradial]

There are 14 guests following this thread, one of them might be our new minister of transport, a golden opportunity for us