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Policy Exchange propose to mostly remove route learning

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LYradial

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you not at, its most basic, drive a train from one lamp on a pole to the next lamp on a pole, unchanged at its basis for 120 years. There must be a better way.

watch don coffeys video from Oxford to Worcester, that’s all that happens
 
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En

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Correct. Sometimes at least getting an "outsiders" input is very worthwhile - this is true of a few industries and not just railways.

and we are back to CRM - crew resource management ( from commercial aviation) via military aviation and military Medicine into healthcare as a whole ... and a de-emphasis on rote learning of topics vs reference to up to date checklists and practice guidelines and also tied in with the Japanese influenced quality systems where anyone can "stop the line" ( for the shortest relevant period to resolve an issue) from the lowliest apprentice or cleaner right the way through t the CEO
 

Dieseldriver

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you not at, its most basic, drive a train from one lamp on a pole to the next lamp on a pole, unchanged at its basis for 120 years. There must be a better way.

watch don coffeys video from Oxford to Worcester, that’s all that happens
Yeah, see it’s because of ridiculous comments like these that railway staff get irritated at non railway staff forming ‘opinions’ on the industry
 

LYradial

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Yeah, see it’s because of ridiculous comments like these that railway staff get irritated at non railway staff forming ‘opinions’ on the industry
Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next
 

Dieseldriver

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Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next
Are you actually interested in learning more about a subject you clearly have very limited knowledge about or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to belittle Train Driving?
 

E16 Cyclist

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What is odd is that they’ve zeroed in on route learning as being the barrier to drivers passing out more quickly (that and the union apparently) and ignoring the fact that people who pass the assessments wait months if not years to start training due to a lack of training capacity

Maybe once the industry is one big happy family again they could consider centralising the rules and traction part of the course and have it as a residential course starting every couple of months and then those who pass that part could be allocated to different routes/operators

Benefits are the workforce is trained consistently to a high level and there isn’t the delay waiting to start that there currently is

Obviously the challenge would then be having enough instructors to enable trainees to have handling experience. A good way to start would be not to offer a small enhancement to be an instructor that many perfectly capable drivers feel it’s not worth the hassle
 

43066

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you not at, its most basic, drive a train from one lamp on a pole to the next lamp on a pole, unchanged at its basis for 120 years. There must be a better way.

watch don coffeys video from Oxford to Worcester, that’s all that happens

You could say that about any job. At its most basic a pilot flies an aeroplane from one runway to another etc.

There are plenty of threads including this one discussing route learning. It takes over a year to train a typical driver, so clearly it’s not as straight forward as you imagine. :rolleyes:

Maybe once the industry is one big happy family again they could consider centralising the rules and traction part of the course and have it as a residential course starting every couple of months and then those who pass that part could be allocated to different routes/operators

The rules course isn’t totally the same everywhere, though (some operators tailor aspects of it to their own network), and neither is traction. So a fair bit is always going to need to be done at a local level.
 

En

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What is odd is that they’ve zeroed in on route learning as being the barrier to drivers passing out more quickly (that and the union apparently) and ignoring the fact that people who pass the assessments wait months if not years to start training due to a lack of training capacity

Maybe once the industry is one big happy family again they could consider centralising the rules and traction part of the course and have it as a residential course starting every couple of months and then those who pass that part could be allocated to different routes/operators

Benefits are the workforce is trained consistently to a high level and there isn’t the delay waiting to start that there currently is

Obviously the challenge would then be having enough instructors to enable trainees to have handling experience. A good way to start would be not to offer a small enhancement to be an instructor that many perfectly capable drivers feel it’s not worth the hassle
Residential courses in the work place have a whole other set of risks attached ever wondered by the 999 services no longer run residiential basic training ? ever wondered why, even before nCovSARS2 the military has changed Ph1 and Ph2 training so dramtically and where long ph 2 or a Ph3 is required the accomodation arrangmeents are more like that of the trained strength rather than the historical view of Military accomodation especially for trainees (iirc the Navy is havign to revise training accomodation again due to the layout of the newer ships and boats in the fleet
 

TreacleMiller

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you not at, its most basic, drive a train from one lamp on a pole to the next lamp on a pole, unchanged at its basis for 120 years. There must be a better way.

watch don coffeys video from Oxford to Worcester, that’s all that happens

No.
 

En

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What is odd is that they’ve zeroed in on route learning as being the barrier to drivers passing out more quickly (that and the union apparently) and ignoring the fact that people who pass the assessments wait months if not years to start training due to a lack of training capacity

Maybe once the industry is one big happy family again they could consider centralising the rules and traction part of the course and have it as a residential course starting every couple of months and then those who pass that part could be allocated to different routes/operators

Benefits are the workforce is trained consistently to a high level and there isn’t the delay waiting to start that there currently is

Obviously the challenge would then be having enough instructors to enable trainees to have handling experience. A good way to start would be not to offer a small enhancement to be an instructor that many perfectly capable drivers feel it’s not worth the hassle
I think it is becasue of the way in which , rightly or wrongly , the UK railway does it and that it ;s seen to be at odds with how other railways do it , never mind the way in which commercial aviation and the Emergency services treat roughly comparable aspects of their operations ( based on 'likely' to go at least once a year most Ambulance staff would need know 25 or so hospitals ( and probably at least 2 or 3 different locations at each of them Emergency Dept and Major Trauma / Maternity/ Heart attack centre/ Hyper acute stroke / regional specialist unit ) especially in a more rural service , the Fire Service always have had playbooks or modern equivlanets for the higher risk premises on their patch )
 

eldomtom2

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The fact is the industry has been run by private sector companies for three decades. If there m was a meaningful way to reduce training time/expense, it would have been found and presented to the DfT for approval.
Perhaps a bit optimistic there - private companies don't actually always do the most efficient thing in my experience.
 

12LDA28C

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Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next

That rather depends on the type of train you're driving and whether it's subject to any differential speed restrictions, weather / railhead conditions, what colour your next 'lamp on pole' is, whether there are any additional speed restrictions in place in terms of TSRs and ESRs, where the next station is and many other factors. Some might call it 'Route Knowledge'.
 

Haywain

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If there m was a meaningful way to reduce training time/expense, it would have been found
Many TOCs discovered very early on that the way of reducing training time and expense was to poach drivers from other TOCs with better pay, a perfect example of the market in action. But that doesn't alter the fact that there may be economies to be found.
 

MarkyT

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I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I find this passage particularly alarming:
"There is already, of course, a system on every train which stops it automatically if a signal is passed at danger - rendering the need for year-long route learning still more moot."
It appears that in the author's world train drivers can just blast round at top speed paying no heed to the signals because the train will stop itself at a red anyway and it'll all be fine...
Indeed. Not recognising that a. TPWS is a passive not an active system, and b. It isn’t present everywhere… Indeed the majority of stop signals don’t have it.
It's active in that a signal being at danger switches the power on to the oscillators feeding the grid antennae. In the event of a total power failure, there's no signal at all from the grids and thus no protection. That's why the oscillators are proved operational in the circuits for the previous signal, in a similar way to lamps being proved alight.
I somehow doubt that. They fundamentally misunderstand TPWS, so I see no reason to suppose their knowledge of German systems is any better.
German Indusi, like AWS, is at least failsafe in that a trackside power failure will result in the most restrictive status when an inductor is passed, as the power source for interrogating the trackside transponder is on the train.
What works in Germany also won’t necessarily work here, for a plethora of reasons. Lazy and cherry picked comparisons to foreign systems rarely hold water when subjected to scrutiny.
German fitment strategy was different to UK. Although Indusi started pre-WW2, the big developments and expansions were in the 1950s after the old system was switched back on again, having fallen out of use during the war. The focus was on main higher speed routes and busy urban stations at first with infill on slower more rural routes only much later, including single lines.
As someone who drives the Cambrian, with its ETCS only (no overlay) signalling, I can tell you route learning is vitally important, but in a different way.
We have 2 speed profiles for the line, the one which you can drive when you are driving under ‘full supervision’ which permits speeds of up to 130KPH on the Cambrian.
Then should you have some sort of issue (there are many possibilities) but just yesterday there was a train on its way from Pwllheli that on approach to Fairbourne the DMI (screen that provides the speedo and signalling information) decided to freeze so the driver had to driver all the way to Machynlleth under written orders.
This means knowing a degraded speed profile which has a limit of 80KPH and in places is even lower than 80KPH where ‘normal’ line speed is above 80KPH. In ‘staff responsible’ you must also stop at every block marker. Now unlike conventional signalling you don’t get any ‘warning’ that you’re approaching a block marker and the next one could be 15 or more miles away, so yes it could be written in a book, but I’d you not hot on where they are, you are risking having a SPAD.

It’s a nice idea, to have it all written down (which we do already in route packs) but you have to be confident in translating that to reality.

Besides route learning gets done alongside the minimum hours you have to accumulate so I don’t see that there would be huge benefits, but I can certainly see risks and less safe drivers coming from it.
Fascinating. It suggests ETCS should have fixed distant marker boards for these occasions. There's no such thing defined in any standards or other info source I could find. They could be equipped with those modern lightweight fixed AWS magnets for degraded mode working, ignored when ETCS was working normally. You'd be scuppered if the AWS/TPWS was emulated within ETCS computers and screens though and it was those that had failed onboard! That, in turn suggests legacy mode should use independent control equipment and cab controls/indications where possible.
 

TreacleMiller

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That rather depends on the type of train you're driving and whether it's subject to any differential speed restrictions, weather / railhead conditions, what colour your next 'lamp on pole' is, whether there are any additional speed restrictions in place in terms of TSRs and ESRs, where the next station is and many other factors. Some might call it 'Route Knowledge'.

Not to mention track condition, gradients and WSP issues, route indications (what you're offered might not be right), local instructions, point speeds your path will take you through which you MUST know before you get to and all the rest of it.

Route knowledge indeed.
 

whoosh

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It has never been necessary that, say, a coach driver learns the position of every traffic light they will pass. But even if the equivalent is somehow thought essential on rail, the network, as so often, underuses new technology, though it would be safer.

Well... that's because a coach can stop in a few metres. Also, traffic lights tend to apply to all lanes of traffic, not separate traffic lights for each lane, so read across risk is less. Oh, and another thing is that a good coach driver will do, is anticipate a green changing to amber and then red and be prepared to stop at any traffic light, whereas a train at 70mph or 100mph can't do that can they?
Consequences of a SPAD in a coach: Both coach driver and other road uses are able to take evasive action.
The railway is are rather more limited in this regard. If you actually think it through...


Many TOCs make little or no use of simulators for training.

They aren't using simulators for route learning. They use them for simulating degraded situations.
I don't think many simulate a real route in great detail.
And for driving in service, all TOCs could use incab electronic aids which flag each feature of a route as it arises, reduce the need to learn every gradient sign by heart, and cut the driver’s chances of forgetting one. There is already, of course, a system on every train which stops it automatically if a signal is passed at danger - rendering the need for year-long route learning still more moot.
Oh of course there is! Fitted to every signal as well, and is guaranteed to stop a train safely within the overlap at the maximum permitted approach speed as well.
Oh hang on, that's not true though is it?


Poor Lara doesn't seem to have got the hang of the fact that if you make Sundays part of the working week - you need more drivers!

Also, that "most" drivers voluntarily work Sundays doesn't really convey that TPE, LNER, Island Line, SWR, South Eastern, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, Heathrow Express, and the Eastern part of Northern all have Sundays as part of the working week, and Southern, Gatwick Express, Cross Country, and Avanti West Coast all have committed enforced overtime for Sundays.


Someone without a degree could've written that absolute garbage. They are overpaying for her efforts.
Although... I suppose that it's a report written by someone with a degree gives it credence, and so therefore it does it's job at union bashing, and the notion that it is easy to drive a train, amongst the right wing politicians.


Do you know what I find the most ironic thing about this report?
When I started as a Trainee Driver, some of my colleagues on my course completed their training and were fully productive (including the two main types of traction) on the route between Sheffield/Derby/Leicester/St Pancras, Nottingham to Leicester, and the diversionary routes via the Erewash Vally from Trent Junction to Clay Cross Junction, and Nottingham to where it joins that line as well, in.... 9 months.

Nine months is perfectly possible, providing the training is well organised, and doesn't have hold-ups waiting for Instructors to do practical handling (so isn't a huge influx all at once!). But this is the railway, where at least one TOC reached the end of its tenure and found it cheaper to pay the fine for a Driver resource shortfall on handing back the keys, than to train enough drivers that they were supposed to!


£100,000 is what they put on their tax return, including all the paperclips and staples. I don't believe it actually costs that much.


Edited to add most Drivers at East Midlands Railway also have Sundays in the working week.
 
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185

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I would say far too much attention has been given to this speculative, untested idea from a staunchly-Tory, Tory owned and Tory led consultancy firm.

In other news, the president of the Cat Republic, General Meowus Meow has decreed all dogs should be rounded up and...
 

The exile

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Or at it's very simplest what groups of staff are considered ot be 'train drivers'
is that uk figure 'mainline drivers' or does it include London Underground, Manchester Metrolink and T+W metro operators/drivers ? and does the German figure include it;s various flavours of light rail / underground drivers/ operators?
ditto some of the Driver Trainers and Drivers as Managers that we see there being dispute over them 'acting down' to cover unfilled turns or during industrial action despite not being in eligible to strike constituencies
In the German case it should be simple - drivers on systems operated under railway (as opposed to tramway) regulations. Rule of thumb is if the leading vehicle has the triangular three lights (one at roof level, two much lower). A few of what we would think of as tramways are actually railways (most of the inter urban tram bits between Cologne and Bonn for example) while very similar operations (Rheinbahn between Duesseldorf and Krefeld or Duisburg) aren’t. The various U-Bahn systems are not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next
So at what speed do you proceed to ensure that you can stop at the next pole that’s showing a red light? Will be different depending (amongst other factors) on whether you’re going downhill or uphill. Railways being railways, you probably won’t be able to tell unless you know…
Exactly when do you start applying the brake to ensure that the accessible carriage (which may be the best part of 100 metres behind you) is adjacent to the short platform, rather than 20 metres short of it? Tgat do for starters?
 
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Haywain

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When I started as a Trainee Driver, some of my colleagues on my course completed their training and were fully productive (including the two main types of traction) on the route between Sheffield/Derby/Leicester/St Pancras, Nottingham to Leicester, and the diversionary routes via the Erewash Vally from Trent Junction to Clay Cross Junction, and Nottingham to where it joins that line as well, in.... 9 months.
Well, at least there's a confirmation that it can be done in a shorter time.
 

renegademaster

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Residential courses in the work place have a whole other set of risks attached ever wondered by the 999 services no longer run residiential basic training ? ever wondered why, even before nCovSARS2 the military has changed Ph1 and Ph2 training so dramtically and where long ph 2 or a Ph3 is required the accomodation arrangmeents are more like that of the trained strength rather than the historical view of Military accomodation especially for trainees (iirc the Navy is havign to revise training accomodation again due to the layout of the newer ships and boats in the fleet
What are the additional risks?
 

matacaster

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It's not particularly obvious why head up display of route in the cab (perhaps based on satnav technology), with appropriate extensions to cater for weather conditions etc wouldn't help to minimise route learning time.
 

Ashfordian6

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Perhaps you could then help me, bearing in mind this thread is about route knowledge, if you took over a train, on time, with its path set, at Oxford. The driver you have taken over from has handed it over in perfect condition, you have been despatched, the lamp on a pole is green, do you not proceed at line speed to the next lamp, and the next

I'll humour your question but I doubt you'll come back and answer this!

What do you do at this 'lamp'? Which of these routes are you permitted to take? What are the speeds of each route? Where is your next 'lamp on a pole'?

1724175160462.png


ps This was the 'lamp on a pole' where the Lumo driver got it wrong at Peterborough a couple of years ago. And that was WITH route knowledge!
 

eldomtom2

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I'll humour your question but I doubt you'll come back and answer this!

What do you do at this 'lamp'? Which of these routes are you permitted to take? What are the speeds of each route? Where is your next 'lamp on a pole'?

View attachment 163979


ps This was the 'lamp on a pole' where the Lumo driver got it wrong at Peterborough a couple of years ago. And that was WITH route knowledge!
This is where speed signalling comes in useful, though of course implementing it would have a massive pricetag.
 

LYradial

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I'll humour your question but I doubt you'll come back and answer this!

What do you do at this 'lamp'? Which of these routes are you permitted to take? What are the speeds of each route? Where is your next 'lamp on a p

ps This was the 'lamp on a pole' where the Lumo driver got it wrong at Peterborough a couple of years ago. And that was WITH route knowledge!
Ok so the red light is green so I can go, I am assuming I am travelling from right to left, so there are more lights on the pole, feathers I think,

so 1. I am not taking a diverging route so off I go cautiously

2. i am diverging to the left, is this correct, yes I proceed accordingly

3i am taking the second diverging route round the back of platform 1, this is not the route I want so I phone the signaller.

the white line is a dead giveaway

my post was made in light of the specific trip from Oxford onwards where there are no diverging routes so would effectively be driving from signal to signal.

the question is would you really need three years of training to drive this section, or could you accomplish this in say four weeks,
then go back and forth and free up a more experienced driver for a whole shift to make better use of his experience and training
 
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Dieseldriver

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Ok so the red light is green so I can go, I am assuming I am travelling from right to left, so there are more lights on the pole, feathers I think,

so 1. I am not taking a diverging route so off I go cautiously

2. i am diverging to the left, is this correct, yes I proceed accordingly

3i am taking the second diverging route round the back of platform 1, this is not the route I want so I phone the signaller.

the white line is a dead giveaway

my post was made in light of the specific trip from Oxford onwards where there are no diverging routes so would effectively be driving from signal to signal.

the question is would you really need three years of training to drive this section, or could you accomplish this in say four weeks,
then go back and forth and free up a more experienced driver for a whole shift to make better use of his experience and training
How old are you?
 

LYradial

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You'll have evidence of that?
I will admit to playing the devils advocate a bit but I consider that a type of satnav telling the driver where he is and what is upcoming would be a usefull and productive aid.
my car does it in realtime constantly whether I want it or not.


edii, diesel driver. 83
 

bahnause

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Something about the electronic aids for the train driver. We have been using these since 2002, before that the data was available on paper. It has become an important and very powerful tool, not only for driving but for preperation and much more. I have been looking after this system for 20 years, in support, technical assistance, development and now also in a project to replace the current software.

Despite this tool, we are still dependent on route knowledge, with a few exceptions. The main task is still to keep an eye on the track and the signals. The glances at the tablet are relatively short and become shorter and shorter with increasing experience. This is important as the work of an engine driver requires a high level of concentration and distractions should be avoided. The information displayed is therefore limited to the most important route data. Local station specialties are available on demand, but are not necessarily intended to be read during driving. Nevertheless, a lot is not covered by the tablet. Where are the emergency stops in a tunnel? On which side of the tunnel? Where are the signals for the stops on the platform? Where are the places that are suitable or not suitable for an stop in an emergency? In the event of a fire, can I stop directly after the tunnel or is the route inaccessible to emergency services? Literally what it looks like along the route.

There is a big difference between valuable external input from people who are competent in their field, who ask the right questions and acquire the necessary knowledge before presenting a possible solution, and unqualified assertions from ideologically driven “consultants”.
 
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