Police checking travel

[bengley]

I understand you can drive a reasonable distance, say 10 miles (very arbitrary) to exercise. Does this extend to using a bus too? I live about that distance from open moorland and hills and would really like to spend a day there rather than walking on concrete pavements....

You can travel as far as you like for exercise

 

[mralexn]

It is not reasonable for someone walking down the road on their own to be challenged - there are plenty of reasons for them to be out, and not all of them can be proved or disproved - e.g. if someone says they are out for exercise.

If it's a group of a dozen blokes then it might well be reasonable for the police to ask them, but someone on their own just walking down the road - no, it is not.

Meanwhile In London especially, knife crime is through the roof.

It is no wonder people are angry when you have situations like the above, and yet the police are stopping HST-Dave for having a walk instead of dealing with real crime. I'm sure there are 125 genuine reasons HST-Dave could be out for a "run", as it does take a while to find the right "Path"...

 

[packermac]

You can travel as far as you like for exercise

Certainly NOT what the council says here in Dorset. Exercise is in your own town or village ONLY.
Shopping slightly different in rural settings as even here in Swanage it is a 40 mile round trip to the nearest Tesco or Asda.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Certainly NOT what the council says here in Dorset. Exercise is in your own town or village ONLY.

Councils and councillors don't make the law. What they say is of no importance.

 

[Watershed]

I understand you can drive a reasonable distance, say 10 miles (very arbitrary) to exercise. Does this extend to using a bus too? I live about that distance from open moorland and hills and would really like to spend a day there rather than walking on concrete pavements....

There is no difference depending on the mode of transport you use (unless you went to your starting point under your own steam, in which case...!)

It's about whether it is "reasonably necessary" for you to leave and remain away from home, and whether you are actually falling under the reasonable excuse of exercise any more (or if not, whether there's another reasonable excuse that applies).

Clearly, at some point you are no longer really leaving home mainly for the purpose of exercising - I would suggest this may be when the travelling is out of all proportion with the exercising.

 

[greyman42]

I understand you can drive a reasonable distance, say 10 miles (very arbitrary) to exercise. Does this extend to using a bus too? I live about that distance from open moorland and hills and would really like to spend a day there rather than walking on concrete pavements....

It all sounds reasonable to me, just do it. There is not any policing being done at bus stops or on the buses.

 

[DB]

Certainly NOT what the council says here in Dorset. Exercise is in your own town or village ONLY.
Shopping slightly different in rural settings as even here in Swanage it is a 40 mile round trip to the nearest Tesco or Asda.

We're back here to the usual situation - the law is silent on the matter, but the guidance is more specific on distance (neither makes any mention of using public transport).

If it went to court, what would the magistrates decide?

 

[Cdd89]

There is no difference depending on the mode of transport you use (unless you went to your starting point under your own steam, in which case...!)

There isn’t in the law, but there is in the eyes of the police, which is why it is so problematic and discriminatory.

I wonder who would be more likely to receive an FPN: someone driving 5 miles to collect a takeaway, or someone taking the train 5 miles to collect a takeaway?

 

[Watershed]

There isn’t in the law, but there is in the eyes of the police, which is why it is so problematic and discriminatory.

I wonder who would be more likely to receive an FPN: someone driving 5 miles to collect a takeaway, or someone taking the train 5 miles to collect a takeaway?

I'm not so sure - even if we accept there is a bias against people on trains having a reasonable excuse, I think enforcement is overwhelmingly geared towards the roads.

I'll put it this way - when you're driving any sort of distance you're quite likely to come across a police car at some point. Whereas on the equivalent train journey it would very much be a matter of pot luck.

 

[52290]

I had to drive a total of 22 miles today to get my first jab, being over 70. Coming back on the M6 there was an illuminated sign saying "stay at home". I'm glad I didn't.

 

[ChrisC]

I'm not so sure - even if we accept there is a bias against people on trains having a reasonable excuse, I think enforcement is overwhelmingly geared towards the roads.

I'll put it this way - when you're driving any sort of distance you're quite likely to come across a police car at some point. Whereas on the equivalent train journey it would very much be a matter of pot luck.

I’m not sure that there is much chance of being stopped by the police when driving, as in many areas there is so much traffic on the roads. I did a short journey this morning, a few miles north of Nottingham, and the traffic seemed even heavier than on a normal Friday morning. The roads were were so busy around lunchtime, with queues at every set of traffic lights and road junctions. When there is a constant stream of traffic, unless the police see a car full of people who obviously aren’t from the same household, I can’t see them being able to just pick on certain motorists out of hundreds on a stretch of road. As the roads are so busy around here it seems like a case of safety in numbers. However, I think it could be a different matter after dark. Certainly through my village after about 7pm cars passing through are very few and far between.

 

[Ediswan]

I went to the local Co-op about an hour ago. For the first time since this all started, there was a single police officer walking past the shops. I have to assume they were looking for something specific. If anything, they were doing their best to avoid interacting with anybody.

 

[Busaholic]

Certainly NOT what the council says here in Dorset. Exercise is in your own town or village ONLY.
Shopping slightly different in rural settings as even here in Swanage it is a 40 mile round trip to the nearest Tesco or Asda.

On the local BBC TV Spotlight programme two (?) nights ago the Chief Constable of Dorset made clear that none of the county's residents need fear facing questioning/fines for travel ANYWHERE within that county:meanwhile, in Cornwall (and, presumably, Devon, given it's the same police force) number plate checks have been made at various coastal location car parks in recent days and people who MAY have travelled more than five miles to get there have faced questioning and, in some cases, notional 'fines', which, of course, are only the first part of a process unless the person given one accepts it and pays it. The various places chosen are all over five miles (some only just) from where I live in the centre of the St Ives parliamentary constituency, which is not huge geographically, and as far as I'm concerned are all local to me as we all share the same MP, an argument I'd certainly use if I ever went before a magistrate to explain why I hadn't accepted the 'fine.'

 

[david1212]

In normal circumstances, when there are reasonable grounds for the Police to be suspicious, then I am perfectly happy to be challenged. i.e. out and about whilst everyone else is not.
In the current circumstances, when there is a presumption that I should be at home unless there is a reason to be out, then I feel it is reasonable for the Police to challenge me at any time.

OK so let's look at the some of the reasons people may be allowed outside as laid out in legislation:

Living safely with respiratory infections, including COVID-19

Guidance for living safely with respiratory infections, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.gov.uk

• shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person
• go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home
• exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person (in which case you should stay 2m apart). Exercise should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.
• meet your support bubble or childcare bubble where necessary, but only if you are legally permitted to form one
• seek medical assistance or avoid injury, illness or risk of harm (including domestic abuse)
• attend education or childcare - for those eligible

If the core objective of the Police patrols was to be a deterrent and they initially approached everyone with the presumption that their reason to be out fitted within the above, even if not readily provable, so there was no fear of more than at most a polite reminder of these reasons your approach would be acceptable. After all British justice ( should ) work on the the principle of innocent until / unless proven guilty. Only if there was a clear breach of the law, and note I say the law not any guideline, would the police request personal details and issue a FPN. If any doubt they would just give a firm verbal reminder.

We are in the real world and within almost every organisation there is the odd ' bad egg '. However over the last 10 months there have been far too many cases of of the police suspecting or claiming the law has been broken when it had not been.

 

[Philip]

The police are likely to be in a difficult position about enforcing the lockdown rules. On the one hand they've been told to step in with enforcement by the government, so they want to be seen to be doing something. On the other many are probably sick and tired of the pettiness of it all, including the pettiness of people who are blatantly breaking the rules.

The other day a car with a family in it was stopped while they had gone out for a drive in the snow; but they had driven from Stoke to Derby to do it and it clearly wasn't an essential journey. This kind of thing must be wearing the patience of the police thin.

Is being stopped and asked the purpose of travel really much different to what a copper would typically do on the beat rounds up the 1970s? They used to stop and ask what people were up to even if the person/people weren't commiting a crime.

 

[Cdd89]

many are probably sick and tired of the pettiness of it all, including the pettiness of people who are blatantly breaking the rules.

Agreed. However, to make sure we’re on the same page...

a car with a family in it was stopped while they had gone out for a drive in the snow; but they had driven from Stoke to Derby to do it and it clearly wasn't an essential journey

... is not an example of “blatantly” breaking the law; it’s somewhere in the grey area.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Agreed. However, to make sure we’re on the same page...

... is not an example of “blatantly” breaking the law; it’s somewhere in the grey area.

I fail to see how they pose a risk to anything.

 

[Mills444]

Agreed. However, to make sure we’re on the same page...

... is not an example of “blatantly” breaking the law; it’s somewhere in the grey area.

Is it? , Unless they claimed an exemption then travelling to look at the snow is not by itself legal.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Is it? , Unless they claimed an exemption then travelling to look at the snow is not by itself legal.

There are no domestic travel restrictions in law in England at the moment. You just have to have "reasonable excuse" to leave your home.

Whether travelling 30 miles to look at some snow is a "reasonable excuse" to leave your house leaves a lot to be desired, but as @VauxhallandI said I don't see any extra risk posed by doing so.

 

[Cdd89]

Unless they claimed an exemption then travelling to look at the snow is not by itself legal.

You’re right, I misread that as “drive for a walk in the snow” originally! Though as you note there are plenty of reasonable excuses that could be claimed.

 

[Philip]

I fail to see how they pose a risk to anything.

It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

 

[Mills444]

There are no domestic travel restrictions in law in England at the moment. You just have to have "reasonable excuse" to leave your home.

Whether travelling 30 miles to look at some snow is a "reasonable excuse" to leave your house leaves a lot to be desired, but as @VauxhallandI said I don't see any extra risk posed by doing so.

I quite agree there is no discernable extra risk, But unfortunately, the government don't particularly care whether any of their restrictions increase nor decrease the risk.

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It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

But they didn't, and besides what if they had a heart attack through lack of physical activity?

 

[Philip]

I quite agree there is no discernable extra risk, But unfortunately, the government don't particularly care whether any of their restrictions increase nor decrease the risk.

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But they didn't, and besides what if they had a heart attack through lack of physical activity?

The rules are quite clear that exercise is allowed locally. It is risk management here and whilst nothing happened, they took an unreasonable risk by making a long trip without good reason.

 

[Richard Scott]

It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

What if I got out of bed in the morning and fell down the stairs? Where does this end? Wellbeing is important and it's not for us to judge people on whether or not their journey is necessary, that's up to them.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

Utter tosh

 

[Philip]

What if I got out of bed in the morning and fell down the stairs? Where does this end? Wellbeing is important and it's not for us to judge people on whether or not their journey is necessary, that's up to them.

That is nitpicking. It ends where people like this family in question ignore lockdown rules and make an unnecessary lengthy journey which potentially puts themselves and the NHS at greater risk. It is this kind of thing which increases the chances of lockdown carrying on longer and the police getting tougher.

 

[bramling]

It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

And what if a meteorite came out of the sky and happened to land on their head?

We cannot live in a way where we have to constantly think about the possibility of being a burden on the NHS. Being blunt about it, we all pay quite a lot of money each year to fund the NHS. Some pay more to private insurers which reduces their personal burden on the NHS. Whilst I agree there was some recklessness on the roads last weekend when it snowed, I don’t see why we should have to abandon life to protect the NHS. As long as people exercise due care (I accept that some don’t) then the chances of someone being a burden on the NHS is very small indeed, drop in ocean territory.

 

[Philip]

And what if a meteorite came out of the sky and happened to land on their head?

We cannot live in a way where we have to constantly think about the possibility of being a burden on the NHS. Being blunt about it, we all pay quite a lot of money each year to fund the NHS. Some pay more to private insurers which reduces their personal burden on the NHS. Whilst I agree there was some recklessness on the roads last weekend when it snowed, I don’t see why we should have to abandon life to protect the NHS. As long as people exercise due care (I accept that some don’t) then the chances of someone being a burden on the NHS is very small indeed, drop in ocean territory.

I think right now we do have to think about ways to reduce the likelihood of being a burden on the NHS, as the NHS is in a critical situation; and the lifting of lockdown depends on this situation improving.

 

[Cowley]

That is nitpicking. It ends where people like this family in question ignore lockdown rules and make an unnecessary lengthy journey which potentially puts themselves and the NHS at greater risk. It is this kind of thing which increases the chances of lockdown carrying on longer and the police getting tougher.

It’s all nitpicking and so are the points you’re trying to make. Just get on with your life and try not to do anything too ridiculous.

 

[yorkie]

It's not just about reducing spread of the virus, it's about minimizing the risk and strain on the NHS in general; they didn't need to make that trip, what if they crashed in the snow and had to be taken to hospital?

Is this a serious post?

If so, this demonstrates perfectly how disconnected from reality the authoritarian pro-lockdown camp is.

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Meanwhile In London especially, knife crime is through the roof.

As long as Covid deaths (average age 82) are reduced, the media and hysterical authoritarians aren't too fussed about that

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It’s all nitpicking and so are the points you’re trying to make. Just get on with your life and try not to do anything too ridiculous.

Authoritarians are bitterly opposed to that!

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... if we don't like the rules (perhaps not agreeing with the reasoning and efficacy behind them) use the democratic processes to change them...

What democratic process do we have right now?

No-one voted to become an authoritarian state!

Amongst all the gloom and doom on this thread, my wife an I were stopped en route by car to Southampton ferry terminal to visit my recently bereaved father in law on the Isle of Wight.
As soon as we explained the circumstances, they backed off, expressed sorrow over the recent loss and apologised for stopping us.

Also in the first lock down Hampshire Police didn't query cycling around at 2200 at night because the roads were empty.

If only all police were like that!