Police checking travel

[initiation]

Interesting discussion on a Facebook group I'm part of where somebody was stopped while heading to church this morning by the police and told that it wasn't a necessary journey; details were reportedly "taken".

The number of people supporting the police officer's actions was depressing, perhaps not as high as last March/April but still depressing. Somebody said they could not see a single good reason why any place of worship should be open.

 

[greyman42]

Does one have the right to remain silent or go no comment when being questioned by police outside the home?

Yes.

 

[Mag_seven]

Somebody said they could not see a single good reason why any place of worship should be open.

Which is a completely separate debate. Meanwhile the police have no right to take anyone's details for doing what they are allowed to do in law.

 

[duncanp]

Interesting discussion on a Facebook group I'm part of where somebody was stopped while heading to church this morning by the police and told that it wasn't a necessary journey; details were reportedly "taken".

The number of people supporting the police officer's actions was depressing, perhaps not as high as last March/April but still depressing. Somebody said they could not see a single good reason why any place of worship should be open.

That is completely and utterly over the top.

Whilst it is not unreasonable for the police to stop you and ask where you are going, saying that going to church is an unecessary journey, and "taking details", constitutes bullying and intimidation.

What next? Are the police going to go to the nearest church and issue FPNs to everyone inside?

Or are they going to stand outside and listen in case there is a bit of illicit hymn singing going on ?

I bet they wouldn't dare do that to people on their way to a mosque, synagogue or one of these black led pentecostal churches for fear of being accused of racism.

Whether you are religious or not, the fact is that churches and places of worship are legally permitted to open (in England) and therefore travelling to attend a place of worship is a valid reason for being outside your home.

 

[initiation]

Which is a completely separate debate. Meanwhile the police have no right to take anyone's details for doing what they are allowed to do in law.

Oh absolutely. But people were so confused by (or ignoring) the differentiation between guidance and 'doing the right thing' vs the law.

 

[52290]

That is completely and utterly over the top.

Whilst it is not unreasonable for the police to stop you and ask where you are going, saying that going to church is an unecessary journey, and "taking details", constitutes bullying and intimidation.

What next? Are the police going to go to the nearest church and issue FPNs to everyone inside?

Or are they going to stand outside and listen in case there is a bit of illicit hymn singing going on ?

I bet they wouldn't dare do that to people on their way to a mosque, synagogue or one of these black led pentecostal churches for fear of being accused of racism.

Whether you are religious or not, the fact is that churches and places of worship are legally permitted to open (in England) and therefore travelling to attend a place of worship is a valid reason for being outside your home.

All the churches here in Leyland are closed today as I think they are in most of Lancashire.

 

[py_megapixel]

The main issue is that so many people and organisations seem to be perfectly happy with the blurring of the distinction between law and guidance.
In my opinion, gov.uk should format their pages in the same way as the Highway Code - anything which is actually legally required should contain the word MUST in bold type, and should be accompanied by a reference to the section of the relevant legislation which makes it law.

For those not aware, here's a more complete example of how this kind of formatting would work, taken from the Highway Code rule 98, which can be read at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-drivers-and-motorcyclists-89-to-102

As a driver

• you MUST NOT tow more than your licence permits. If you passed a car test after 1 Jan 1997 you are restricted on the weight of trailer you can tow
• you MUST NOT overload your vehicle or trailer. You should not tow a weight greater than that recommended by the manufacturer of your vehicle
• you MUST secure your load and it MUST NOT stick out dangerously. Make sure any heavy or sharp objects and any animals are secured safely. If there is a collision, they might hit someone inside the vehicle and cause serious injury
• you should properly distribute the weight in your caravan or trailer with heavy items mainly over the axle(s) and ensure a downward load on the tow ball. Manufacturer’s recommended weight and tow ball load should not be exceeded. This should avoid the possibility of swerving or snaking and going out of control. If this does happen, ease off the accelerator and reduce speed gently to regain control
• carrying a load or pulling a trailer may require you to adjust the headlights.

Laws: CUR reg 100 & MV(DL)R reg 43

Note how MUST is only used for legal requirements, and anything which is just guidance or advise uses "should" or "may".

 

[kristiang85]

Are police on some kind of incentive for the number of 'COVID tickets' they issue? Because surely the average officer sees the absurdity of these actions?

 

[duncanp]

All the churches here in Leyland are closed today as I think they are in most of Lancashire.

That is another issue.

It seems the Church of England is running scared and closing churches even when they are not required to do so by law.

It doesn't put the church in a very good light.

No-one is forced to attend a church if they don't want to, but those who do want to go should not be denied the opportunity to do so whilst it is legally permitted.

 

[Ediswan]

The lack of any clarity on when the restrictions will be relaxed has actually encouraged me to start taking some outdoor excercise for its own sake. For starters today, about 1.5 miles round the local roadside (I made the decision too late to plan for longer in daylight). I did come across a modest number of other walkers, joggers, and cyclists. No signs of paranoia though. Just people making use of the available width to pass.

What I did notice was that were far more cars on the roads than people on the paths. Those roads only carry local traffic.

The only police observed were contributing to the motor traffic.

 

[52290]

That is another issue.

It seems the Church of England is running scared and closing churches even when they are not required to do so by law.

It doesn't put the church in a very good light.

No-one is forced to attend a church if they don't want to, but those who do want to go should not be denied the opportunity to do so whilst it is legally permitted.

I think some pressure is being put on them by local councils and health officials. It's not just C of E though, they are all closed.

 

[Mag_seven]

I wonder if its a question of time before the police stop someone who is heading for a COVID vaccination jab?

 

[duncanp]

I think some pressure is being put on them by local councils and health officials. It's not just C of E though, they are all closed.

It is wrong for local councils and "health officials" to do that.

If the government says that churches and places of worship can open, then they should be allowed to open without heavy handed "pressure" from the authorities.

Places of worship have to use track & trace, hand sanitiser, social distancing, masks (unless exempt), NO hymn singing, no wine at holy communion, and all the other gubbins that has been imposed, so they pose very little risk.

To me, it smacks of the "we must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it" mentality that all the tin pot little Hitlers seem to like.

 

[py_megapixel]

It is wrong for local councils and "health officials" to do that.

If the government says that churches and places of worship can open, then they should be allowed to open without heavy handed "pressure" from the authorities.

I have more trust in my local authorities than in the group of lunatics who call themselves "government" at the moment... not that I want there to be conflicting advice from two different organisations, or that I have anything against churches staying open, but still, noteworthy in my opinion.

 

[duncanp]

I have more trust in my local authorities than in the group of lunatics who call themselves "government" at the moment... not that I want there to be conflicting advice from two different organisations, or that I have anything against churches staying open, but still, noteworthy in my opinion.

I don't trust anyone in either local or central government at the moment.

But there shouldn't be conflicting advice from two different authorities.

The central government should set the rules, and local government should implement them, not carry out their own agenda.

What next, are they going to stand outside garden centres and lecture people coming out with a few pot plants or seeds?

 

[trainophile]

I wonder if its a question of time before the police stop someone who is heading for a COVID vaccination jab?

Just been hearing that some people are receiving letters to go for their jab some considerable distance from where they live, the sort of distances that would involve public transport if you don't drive. Could be interesting.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Did anyone hear the Radio 5Live Stephen Nolan phone-in last night, which was on 23:00-01:00? Around 00:30 (I think, only rough timing though) a woman rang in saying that her son was a dispatcher at a Manchester station (not specified), and had asked a woman carrying a mask to put it on when she approached him with a query. She refused and gave him a mouthful of abuse, and then when she was subsequently turfed off a train due to the way she was behaving she spat in this guy's face.

Yes, heard that. Outrageous behaviour even during 'normal' times, so much more so during a global pandemic.

CCTV coverage should hopefully ensure that the offender is brought to justice.

 

[py_megapixel]

What next, are they going to stand outside garden centres and lecture people coming out with a few pot plants or seeds?

Well, I don't advocate them doing that - but I do think it's ludicrous that garden centres are allowed to open and barely anything else is.

Apparently the only non-essential items you're allowed to buy are gardening equipment and supplies, and cheap tat sold at ridiculous markups. In other words, the things one would buy if one had large quantities of money and/or a home with a garden.

 

[DB]

The main issue is that so many people and organisations seem to be perfectly happy with the blurring of the distinction between law and guidance.

And in fairness that is entirely deliberate by the government - they are intentionaly implying that it's all law. Many people take this at face value, and a lot won't be familiar enough with legislation to actually read and understand the statutes - and here again the deliberate blurring has occurred by repeated amendments of existing statutory instruments, making it very time-consuming to piece together which clauses actually apply at any given time.

As regards churches, I can't really see why they should be allowed to open but not places such as leisure centres - but as others have said, that's a separate issue: the fact is that the government has said they can open, so people going to them should not be hassled by the police or anyone else.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I’m confused as I’ve just pictures of the streets around Marine FC full of people cheering their team into the he ground and yet a walk in the park with a coffee is a £200 fine?

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying people can stand on a street and clap after all it’s very close to what they wanted everyone to do on Thursday night!

 

[david1212]

.......
A simple google search on that person’s name can bring up his address...

I just tried this using my own name. Came up with an address that I vacated 14 years ago

Unless specifically agreed otherwise compliance with GDPR should have blocked this.


Formally defining local or a reasonable distance to travel for anything essential is just not workable.

Back 30+ years ago I lived in a village. There were shops and it was possible to buy enough to live but both limited range and expensive. I've no idea now but I can not envisage a significant improvement. While online ordering is an option so long as healthy I would choose to leave the slots for those who can not get their main shop themselves. The two nearest towns were 10 and 12 miles away. Neither were large but between them most essential items could be bought. I would consider it reasonable to go to either weekly for food and essential items plus while there or en-route take my daily exercise. Going further would be unreasonable except for an essential item e.g. plumbing or heating part.

Now from where I live there are two major supermarkets within two miles and examples of virtually every essential shop or business within 5 miles. Now travelling more than 5 miles rather than 12 would be unreasonable.

I am fortunate too that for exercise there is a mostly open two mile loop around the local estate and other options if I so choose without driving anywhere first. For many though this is not the case. From the background I have read I consider what the two women in Derbyshire arranged was totally reasonable so long as where they went was not crowded when they arrived. The role of the police should have been limited to managing the total number in the area, groups were not breaching the law and the roads were not obstructed by parking.


As stated many times over the last few months the police must follow what the law states not what either individuals or their superiors think it should state. Further they get far less respect than years ago. As I've posted before they should be using this pandemic as an opportunity to build bridges with the public not blast wider and deeper chasms.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There have been some really nasty statements on the news from the police over the past few days. I’ve heard of statements from the police including the following
- saying they will be taking details of anyone in a supermarket not wearing a muzzle, to allow them to investigate anyone claiming an exemption

Do you have a source that states the people in supermarkets are wearing/not wearing muzzles?

 

[Watershed]

Formally defining local or a reasonable distance to travel for anything essential is just not workable.

Immediately prior to Wales' "firebreak" lockdown in October it was prohibited for many Welsh residents to leave their local authority area (or enter another area) without reasonable excuse.

Whilst the usual system of reasonable excuses for things like going to the supermarket existed, the law had the specific provision that:

it is not a reasonable excuse for a person to enter, or remain in, a local health protection area to do anything if it would be reasonably practicable for the person to do that thing outside the area.

This led to predictable issues, particularly since there are lots of different local authorities in the populated parts of South Wales, and thus lots of people live close to their area's border. Nevertheless it is one possible approach to the problem.

 

[island]

I’m confused as I’ve just pictures of the streets around Marine FC full of people cheering their team into the he ground and yet a walk in the park with a coffee is a £200 fine?

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying people can stand on a street and clap after all it’s very close to what they wanted everyone to do on Thursday night!

I haven't seen the images, but if the people were in their own property (including gardens) then they would not be breaking the law.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==

Interesting discussion on a Facebook group I'm part of where somebody was stopped while heading to church this morning by the police and told that it wasn't a necessary journey; details were reportedly "taken".

The number of people supporting the police officer's actions was depressing, perhaps not as high as last March/April but still depressing. Somebody said they could not see a single good reason why any place of worship should be open.

This is completely absurd. Going to church is in the list of prescribed reasonable excuses for being out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==

That is another issue.

It seems the Church of England is running scared and closing churches even when they are not required to do so by law.

It doesn't put the church in a very good light.

No-one is forced to attend a church if they don't want to, but those who do want to go should not be denied the opportunity to do so whilst it is legally permitted.

And here in London, the mayor has said churches should close (he does not have the power to make this a requirement), and the Catholic Archbishop of Southwark has said they should remain open. My local parish priest says he is caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Richard Scott]

Did anyone hear the Radio 5Live Stephen Nolan phone-in last night, which was on 23:00-01:00? Around 00:30 (I think, only rough timing though) a woman rang in saying that her son was a dispatcher at a Manchester station (not specified), and had asked a woman carrying a mask to put it on when she approached him with a query. She refused and gave him a mouthful of abuse, and then when she was subsequently turfed off a train due to the way she was behaving she spat in this guy's face. He had the presence of mind to take a swab for DNA identification, and they are reviewing the CCTV footage. Horrendous incident though, enough to put him off doing his job for life. Needless to say there were apparently no BTP around at the time of the incident (which we weren't told, but presumably during the day) - all too busy cross-examining innocent exercisers no doubt.

He wants to try teaching, have to put up with that on a regular basis.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I haven't seen the images, but if the people were in their own property (including gardens) then they would not be breaking the law.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==


This is completely absurd. Going to church is in the list of prescribed reasonable excuses for being out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==


And here in London, the mayor has said churches should close (he does not have the power to make this a requirement), and the Catholic Archbishop of Southwark has said they should remain open. My local parish priest says he is caught between a rock and a hard place.

They were lining the pavement with police present doing nothing. I can’t find the pics now as the game has started so they have moved on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2021 ==

I’ve now found the pictures I described from the BBC site

 

[Darandio]

They were lining the pavement with police present doing nothing. I can’t find the pics now as the game has started so they have moved on

Whilst I do realise this match is a once in a lifetime experience for Marine and it's supporters, they have made themselves look a tad silly.

Images from Talksport.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It also makes Derbyshire Police Force look bent.

 

[trainophile]

He wants to try teaching, have to put up with that on a regular basis.

I trust that would result in disciplinary action. Totally unacceptable. What sort of a rough area do you teach in?

 

[ChrisC]

That is another issue.

It seems the Church of England is running scared and closing churches even when they are not required to do so by law.

It doesn't put the church in a very good light.

No-one is forced to attend a church if they don't want to, but those who do want to go should not be denied the opportunity to do so whilst it is legally permitted.

Many churches have never opened again for public worship after closing in March. Following the government recommendations the Church of England have set very strict rules to be followed before churches can reopen.

When public worship is allowed, as it is during the current lockdown, it is up to each individual church to determine whether it is safe or indeed practical to open. Small elderly congregations, especially in rural areas, have found the risk assessments, cleaning and sanitising, social distancing, track and trace etc too daunting. Some larger congregations have not opened their buildings because their buildings just cannot safely accommodate more than a couple of dozen people socially distanced and don’t want to have to turn people away.

Whatever people’s views about religion the Church of England is another organisation that is going to be very hardly hit financially by this pandemic. Although many people have continued to donate generously online, the historic parish churches and cathedrals have lost an enormous amount of income during this last year.

Bringing things back to the subject of this thread. The Church of England on their website states that wherever possible travel to church during the current lockdown should not be outside your village, town or city district. Perhaps some people are travelling because their nearest church is closed.