Police checking travel

[ChrisC]

Reading this Derbyshire Police article really got my blood boiling. Whilst in general I broadly support restrictions where medium - high risk activities are prohibited logically, this is a gross misuse of authority and makes no sense. People are fed up of this and stressed out now. Honestly, people should be encouraged to get out and about into the countryside right now if they can. The Health benefits are excellent and much better to meet with a friend outdoors for a walk than go round to someones house. Creative lower risk activities should be encouraged across the board even if that involves a car journey.

It really annoys me too, for the same reasons, and I certainly totally disagree with the attitude of Derbyshire police. However, living not too far from Derbyshire, I’m pleased it’s been reported so that I can avoid going walking in Derbyshire and any confrontation with them. I know what they are doing is totally unreasonable, but I’d rather avoid putting myself in that situation.

Yesterday, not knowing about the Derbyshire situation, it could quite easily have happened to me. I drove about 10 miles from the village where I live to another village in Nottinghamshire, and took a flask of coffee with me, and did a lovely walk lasting about 3 hours. Driving 10 miles, taking coffee and walking for more than 1 hour, are probably all not permitted in the eyes of some people. I was right out in the countryside and only passed 3 people during the whole of my walk. Great health benefits and very low risk.

Incidentally, I live in a village, in a fairly rural area, but I drove 10 miles to a quiet area to avoid the crowds. My village is only about 9 miles from Nottingham, has lots of popular footpaths and trails, and in recent months has become extremely busy. It was never anywhere near this popular before Covid, but since June it has got busier and busier, with cars parked everywhere and weekends have almost got like Blackpool Sea Front on a bank holiday. I do welcome the walkers, it’s good to see people getting out and enjoying themselves during this difficult time, but I am increasingly wanting to go elsewhere to avoid them myself. Regularly I now have problems getting my car around the parked cars down the lane where I live and back into my drive when they are parked everywhere. I have lived here for 40 years and have never seen it like this before. Litter is also becoming quite a problem. Never mind, I go and park up in other quieter villages to walk so can’t really criticise those who do the same where I live.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It really annoys me too, for the same reasons, and I certainly totally disagree with the attitude of Derbyshire police. However, living not too far from Derbyshire, I’m pleased it’s been reported so that I can avoid going walking in Derbyshire and any confrontation with them. I know what they are doing is totally unreasonable, but I’d rather avoid putting myself in that situation.

Yesterday, not knowing about the Derbyshire situation, it could quite easily have happened to me. I drove about 10 miles from the village where I live to another village in Nottinghamshire, and took a flask of coffee with me, and did a lovely walk lasting about 3 hours. Driving 10 miles, taking coffee and walking for more than 1 hour, are probably all not permitted in the eyes of some people. I was right out in the countryside and only passed 3 people during the whole of my walk. Great health benefits and very low risk.

Incidentally, I live in a village, in a fairly rural area, but I drove 10 mile to a quiet area to avoid the crowds. My village is only about 9 miles from Nottingham, has lots of popular footpaths and trails, and in recent months has become extremely busy. It was never this popular before Covid, but since June it has got busier and busier, with cars parked everywhere and weekends have almost got like Blackpool Sea Front on a bank holiday. I do welcome the walkers, it’s good to see people getting out and enjoying themselves during this difficult time, but I am increasingly wanting to go elsewhere to avoid them myself. Regularly I now have problems getting my car around the parked cars down the lane where I live and back into my drive when they are parked everywhere. I have lived here for 40 years and have never seen it like this before. Litter is also becoming quite a problem. Never mind, I go and park up in other quieter villages to walk so can’t really criticise those who do the same where I live.

Don’t worry if you don’t criticise them some selfish sod will

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, being able to go for a nice walk in the country was one of the few redeeming features of last year, but even that's too much for the lockdown junta.

 

[PHILIPE]

Didn't Derbyshire police try some controversial tactics last time around? Police up there clearly have a lot of time on their hands.

Yes. They used drones to spy on people in the Peak District. What confidence can the people have in a Police Force who make themselves look like idiots

 

[E100]

Based on police discipline I’ve seen to date there was almost certainly more a risk of virus transmission between the police force attending than the walkers themselves. They aren’t exactly driving there by themselves and not hanging around chatting.

 

[Iskra]

Yes. They used drones to spy on people in the Peak District. What confidence can the people have in a Police Force who make themselves look like idiots

Not only that, but then their PR people defend the officers involved's pathetic position rather than admitting they got it wrong. That's the worst part for me. A force with its priorities well and truly wrong.

 

[Ianno87]

Based on police discipline I’ve seen to date there was almost certainly more a risk of virus transmission between the police force attending than the walkers themselves. They aren’t exactly driving there by themselves and not hanging around chatting.

The fact that the ladies were nowhere near anybody else until the police turn up!

The police said that driving for exercise was "not in the spirt of lockdown", whilst a costing two otherwise lone ladies is hardly "in the spirit of social distancing"!

 

[Bikeman78]

After reading on Twitter, these two should be ashamed for breaking lockdown guidance as it would involve an unnecessary trip to the petrol station and if they had an accident on the road it would be putting pressure on NHS services.

Is this seriously the low point we have got to?

There's some strange people out there if they fill up for every short journey. I last filled my car mid November and it's still got half a tank of fuel.

 

[ChrisC]

So basically, I could travel 5 miles to walk. One officer would say that’s completely reasonable and not fine me. Another could fine me. And both, within the law, are right - according to the police force . I’m sorry, what!?

Just been watching BBC East Midlands Today. The difference between the Derbyshire police attitude and neighbouring Nottinghamshire is just unbelievable.

Derbyshire police are saying that people should not be exercising outside their own village, town or city district. They are turning people back at entrances to car parks and sending people home to their own neighbourhood. A lady who lives in Spondon was told that she shouldn’t be at Elvaston Castle Country Park which is no more than 2 miles away. Anyone driving a few miles and ignoring the warnings can be expected to get a £200 fine. They are warning people not to travel out of their own neighbourhood this weekend.

Nottinghamshire police are saying its business as usual. As long as people are sensible and do not crowd into busy places there is no problem with travelling a few miles for exercise. He did say that travelling 50 miles was not really following the rules! Getting out into the country in uncrowded areas for walking and cycling is good for people’s health. They will not turn people back or fine people unless they are genuinely breaking the law and are a danger to other people. They hope that people will be able to enjoy uncrowded open spaces this weekend.

The difference in attitude could not be more of a contrast. How are the general public supposed to understand the rules when two neighbouring police forces are so different.

 

[Nicholas43]

A force with its priorities well and truly wrong.

And whose officers have not understood the explanation of the current restrictions from the College of Policing, which makes (I think) no mention of the (informal, and not enforceable) guidance about 'staying local'.

We police by consent. The initial police response should be to encourage voluntary compliance.
Policing will continue to apply the four-step escalation principles:

• Engage
• Explain
• Encourage and only
• Enforce as a last resort

 

[Bonemaster]

And whose officers have not understood the explanation of the current restrictions from the College of Policing, which makes (I think) no mention of the (informal, and not enforceable) guidance about 'staying local'.

The guidance is really quite clear that visits to outdoor places for the purposes of open air recreation are prohibited, but exercise is. The police have to use judgement in every decision that they make. I cant think of anything that more fits the very definition of recreation as does travelling five miles to a beauty spot and strolling with a take away coffee with a friend.

People really should be thinking can I do more to stop this virus, rather than trying to find justifications and loopholes beyond what is permitted within the spirit of a lockdown to leave their houses.

 

[Iskra]

The guidance is really quite clear that visits to outdoor places for the purposes of open air recreation are prohibited, but exercise is. The police have to use judgement in every decision that they make. I cant think of anything that more fits the very definition of recreation as does travelling five miles to a beauty spot and strolling with a take away coffee with a friend.

People really should be thinking can I do more to stop this virus, rather than trying to find justifications and loopholes beyond what is permitted within the spirit of a lockdown to leave their houses.

I took a coffee up Helvellyn in September, in a travel mug, with my partner. Would that be a stroll or exercise?

Walking is a form of exercise, the involvement of a coffee (when coffee shops are allowed to be open anyway) is immaterial.

 

[infobleep]

So if the ladies paid the fine, can they still appeal? I do hope so.

There seems to be a postcode lottery when it comes to covid-19 fines. If it's right they get fined in Derbyshire then it isn't right that people aren't be find elsewhere.

I'm all for people staying local for exercise but I don't see 5 miles as not being local. I did a walk that was 5 miles recently. OK it was a round trip, so may be the furthest distance was 2.5 miles but still.

 

[bramling]

Just been watching BBC East Midlands Today. The difference between the Derbyshire police attitude and neighbouring Nottinghamshire is just unbelievable.

Derbyshire police are saying that people should not be exercising outside their own village, town or city district. They are turning people back at entrances to car parks and sending people home to their own neighbourhood. A lady who lives in Spondon was told that she shouldn’t be at Elvaston Castle Country Park which is no more than 2 miles away. Anyone driving a few miles and ignoring the warnings can be expected to get a £200 fine. They are warning people not to travel out of their own neighbourhood this weekend.

Nottinghamshire police are saying its business as usual. As long as people are sensible and do not crowd into busy places there is no problem with travelling a few miles for exercise. He did say that travelling 50 miles was not really following the rules! Getting out into the country in uncrowded areas for walking and cycling is good for people’s health. They will not turn people back or fine people unless they are genuinely breaking the law and are a danger to other people. They hope that people will be able to enjoy uncrowded open spaces this weekend.

The difference in attitude could not be more of a contrast. How are the general public supposed to understand the rules when two neighbouring police forces are so different.

This is where the home secretary should be getting involved. Unfortunately she's just as useless as Hancock, Williamson and Shapps.

 

[Bonemaster]

I took a coffee up Helvellyn in September, in a travel mug, with my partner. Would that be a stroll or exercise?

Walking is a form of exercise, the involvement of a coffee (when coffee shops are allowed to be open anyway) is immaterial.

I would suggest you know if you if your trip was for exercise or an activity done for enjoyment. Derbyshire Polices interpretation that travelling more than what the guidelines say, gives rise to the threshold of recreation (more about an activity performed for enjoyment, than exercise) is in my opinion more than reasonable.

 

[Iskra]

I would suggest you know if you if your trip was for exercise or an activity done for enjoyment. Derbyshire Polices interpretation that travelling more than what the guidelines say, gives rise to the threshold of recreation (more about an activity performed for enjoyment, than exercise) is in my opinion more than reasonable.

It was both, exercise isn’t purely about functionally burning calories. It’s a form of exercise I enjoy. You’re basically saying it’s a crime at the point you start enjoying yourself. Enjoyment of life is important and the authorities should not be penalising people for that.

 

[Kite159]

I would suggest you know if you if your trip was for exercise or an activity done for enjoyment. Derbyshire Polices interpretation that travelling more than what the guidelines say, gives rise to the threshold of recreation (more about an activity performed for enjoyment, than exercise) is in my opinion more than reasonable.

Walking is a form of exercise, it also helps (for me) to clear my mind of negative crap from the current situation. Allows me a few hours to escape from the house and as a side effect allows me to enjoy the countryside which I had previously never visited.

More risk of catching the virus at work or in a supermarket.

 

[Bonemaster]

It was both, exercise isn’t purely about functionally burning calories. It’s a form of exercise I enjoy. You’re basically saying it’s a crime at the point you start enjoying yourself. Enjoyment of life is important and the authorities should not be penalising people for that.

The law is quite clear what is and is not allowed.

The interpretation that is being made is that excersise is allowed, that you are allowed to enjoy should be done in the locality in which you live, you would only travel a distance to be more enjoyable and therefore would be recreation.

Ask the question why would you not excercise in your local green space and travel several miles to another location. If the answer is that you would enjoy it more at the other location then it is by definition recreation and not allowed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2021 ==

Walking is a form of exercise, it also helps (for me) to clear my mind of negative crap from the current situation. Allows me a few hours to escape from the house and as a side effect allows me to enjoy the countryside which I had previously never visited.

More risk of catching the virus at work or in a supermarket.

So why can you not do it local to where you live?

 

[Watershed]

The guidance is really quite clear that visits to outdoor places for the purposes of open air recreation are prohibited, but exercise is

The guidance can say what it may, but the law does not explicitly ban open air recreation.

The only change compared to tier 4, where everyone agreed open air recreation was acceptable, is that recreation is no longer specifically defined as a reasonable excuse. That does not automatically make it unreasonable.

cant think of anything that more fits the very definition of recreation as does travelling five miles to a beauty spot

So you can exercise as long as you aren't enjoying it? We seem to be returning to the fun police - "it's a lockdown folks, you're not allowed to have fun".

I would posit that a walk in a largely deserted (but for the hordes of police) beauty spot is much better for the nation than clogging your lungs up with fumes walking along your street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2021 ==

The law is quite clear what is and is not allowed.

No it isn't! The word "reasonable" does a lot of heavy lifting.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The law is quite clear what is and is not allowed.

The interpretation that is being made is that excersise is allowed, that you are allowed to enjoy should be done in the locality in which you live, you would only travel a distance to be more enjoyable and therefore would be recreation.

Ask the question why would you not excercise in your local green space and travel several miles to another location. If the answer is that you would enjoy it more at the other location then it is by definition recreation and not allowed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2021 ==


So why can you not do it local to where you live?

I’m beginning to realise why you were sent to Coventry.

 

[Richard Scott]

I would suggest you know if you if your trip was for exercise or an activity done for enjoyment. Derbyshire Polices interpretation that travelling more than what the guidelines say, gives rise to the threshold of recreation (more about an activity performed for enjoyment, than exercise) is in my opinion more than reasonable.

Why don't we just have the Stasi and be done with it? Not being allowed to go anywhere just in case we may enjoy it where it becomes recreation. What has this country come to. It's nothing about controlling virus as politicians haven't a clue, put silly rules in place that gave next to no effect as they still don't realise viruses do what viruses do and human arrogance isn't enough to control them. The one thing it would be helpful to acknowledge is people's mental health us deteriorating and that is something that they can put measures in to help.

 

[trainophile]

At this rate we will only be permitted to do press-ups in our front room or back garden. Exercise is good for you, and if you can do it in a pleasant environment it's even better for you.

If coffee constitutes a picnic, what about a bottle of water? Or even, heaven forbid, an energy bar.

As regards "excuse" v "reason" - they perhaps thought "a reasonable reason" sounded silly, which it does, but they could have dropped the "reasonable" completely, and said if you have a reason then that's good enough.

 

[bramling]

The law is quite clear what is and is not allowed.

The interpretation that is being made is that excersise is allowed, that you are allowed to enjoy should be done in the locality in which you live, you would only travel a distance to be more enjoyable and therefore would be recreation.

Ask the question why would you not excercise in your local green space and travel several miles to another location. If the answer is that you would enjoy it more at the other location then it is by definition recreation and not allowed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2021 ==


So why can you not do it local to where you live?

In a lot of cases the options to exercise nearby may be limited. In my area every single rural footpath is a quagmire (thanks to the government trying to keep people at home through November and parts of December).

If they’re desperate to prevent a repeat of Bournemouth beach then they should simply define a distance limit, like Drakeford did in Wales. At least that clarifies things one way or other, and avoids different police forces coming up with their own interpretations based on preference.

Most of this is I suspect a repeat of what we saw at the honeypots last year. Anyone choosing somewhere a bit creative is unlikely to be hassled - especially if one dresses like a key worker for the drive!

Incidentally London is quite a bit quieter tonight. Not sure if it’s the cold weather, but this evening feels rather more like last March than anything seen of late. I was on London Bridge HL just now and there are only a tiny handful of people on the whole station. The creepy “coronavirus is a national emergency...” announcements have also made a return.

 

[Cdd89]

Ask the question why would you not excercise in your local green space and travel several miles to another location. If the answer is that you would enjoy it more at the other location then it is by definition recreation and not allowed

Why do you think the law allows you to meet with a non member of your household when outside? How do you propose people avail that right when you don’t believe travel is allowed, or do you think it was only aimed at neighbours?

 

[Mag_seven]

they should simply define a distance limit, like Drakeford did in Wales.

And I'd hardly describe that as a success!

 

[bramling]

And I'd hardly describe that as a success!

I’m not advocating it as a success or not (any element of sense to all this went out the window months ago!), merely as a way of avoiding this silliness with different police forces. At least we all know where we then stand - and if it’s a political decision then we can hold the politicians to account in all the normal ways.

 

[Mojo]

I’m not advocating it as a success or not (any element of sense to all this went out the window months ago!), merely as a way of avoiding this silliness with different police forces. At least we all know where we then stand - and if it’s a political decision then we can hold the politicians to account in all the normal ways.

What is the difference between the text of the law now, and that in April? Because back then the College of Policing said in its guidance for officers that it was reasonable to travel to exercise if the time spent travelling was less than the time spent exercising. This seemed to me a perfectly rational assessment.

If anything now isn’t the law a lot more lenient now than in April, due to the fact that you can meet up with one other outside (IIRC this wasn’t allowed until May) and also the fact support bubbles exist.

 

[bramling]

What is the difference between the text of the law now, and that in April? Because back then the College of Policing said in its guidance for officers that it was reasonable to travel to exercise if the time spent travelling was less than the time spent exercising. This seemed to me a perfectly rational assessment.

If anything now isn’t the law a lot more lenient now than in April, due to the fact that you can meet up with one other outside (IIRC this wasn’t allowed until May) and also the fact support bubbles exist.

What is to stop me deciding I want to take a 5-hour exercise walk round Holy Island, which is a 4-hour drive from my front door? Apologies if I’m misinterpreting what their guidance is, but surely that would fit the bill.

 

[island]

So if the ladies paid the fine, can they still appeal? I do hope so.

No. Unlike with Penalty Fares, there is no appeal process. This can go down one of four routes:

1. The police do not proceed to issue the fixed penalty notice and sweep it under the carpet (the article says the women's details were taken, as opposed to the notice being issued there and then).
2. The fixed penalties are issued and paid.
3. The fixed penalties are issued and unpaid, and the women are prosecuted in court.
4. The fixed penalties are issued and unpaid, and a prosecution does not proceed, either because the women make representations to the authorities or because the CPS do not take the matter forward.

 

[Iskra]

What is to stop me deciding I want to take a 5-hour exercise walk round Holy Island, which is a 4-hour drive from my front door? Apologies if I’m misinterpreting what their guidance is, but surely that would fit the bill.

What would be wrong/the negative impacts with doing that if all elements of the trip were socially distanced?

Let us not forget the Cummins Affair, was much worse.