Please help - FCC: Notice of Intention to prosecute

[CC 72100]

Roughly see that door right at the front? There. its a little area then a door to the drivers cab on the right and one to the saloon IIRC.

So like the little area on 150s between the cab and passenger saloons, if you are more familiar with DMUs.

 

[broadgage]

The police have powers to search anyone they reasonably suspect may have stolen property on them. Finding someone in a private area that was locked is IMO grounds to reasonably suspect that they may be in possession of a stolen key.

ToC staff do not have powers to force someone to submit to a search without the police present, but they can of course ask the person to agree to a voluntary search.

Is not a "carriage key" a simple square key, widely used for things that should be locked, but for which high security is not required.
If so, I have several of varying sizes and styles used in my non rail related job. So someone searched and found to be in possesion of such a key may have it entirely legititmatly.

 

[jon0844]

I thought that! I'm not familiar with FCC's units I have to say, but this sounds like a targeted sting to me! Almost as though train crew have noted it as a problem and they decided to have a purge.

Well it was talked about on here not so long ago.. and I'm sure FCC read this forum!

The area behind the drivers cab is very large and there are supposedly plans to join two 3-car trains to make a fixed 6-car formation, then open up the two middle areas to the public - but for now, they're quite clearly marked as private/staff only.

As it was Essex Road, for clarification, this was a Class 313 and so there is no first class. This is most definitely a private area that, as discussed here, has been used by some people as a 'VIP' area for some time. Until I read it on here, I didn't even know this to be the case.
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Given the number of people they've allegedly collared there should be some major comeback in the press, at least in the London area.

Seriously? People standing in a private part of the train, with access to the cab and other safety equipment? Let's just see how it works out when some kids find out how to get in there (I wonder if some commuters have obtained their own key from eBay and the like) and start to see what they can do for a laugh?

If the press sided with these people, I'd be shocked. Not even the Daily Mail would support their actions!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Did the OP, and the other passengers mentioned, stand in this area because the train was busy? If so, then maybe a few extra carriages should be added. But then of course none of us have a magic wand! At the same time, however, it looks like FCC have got a 'plan'. It's as if to say 'Okay, trains will be busy at this time of day, let's not bother with extra carriages, so people will have no choice but to stand in vestibule area, then we charge them!'

Having said that, I do agree that it is a security risk. But I'm sure the OP had absolutely NO intention of acting suspicious; I'm sure he was just an ordinary member of the public travelling to work, just like everybody else.

 

[broadgage]

Curiouser and curiouser. Is it just another TOC-inspired scam, then?

Given the number of people they've allegedly collared there should be some major comeback in the press, at least in the London area.

It does sound a bit like a scam to me.
I have little sympathy with those who travel without valid tickets, unless they have a very good reason indeed.

But observing the extreme overcrowding on many FCC services, I have my doubts about this sort of prosecution.
Provided that no harm or danger results from standing in this area it seems very mean indeed to prosecute for so doing.
It would be most unwise to allow the public access to the driving cab, but surely this should be locked ?

I reluctantly used an FCC service this morning, it was appallingly overcrowded with many potential customers left behind at at least two stops, If a train is that overcrowded, I feel that an apology from the TOC is in order, not prosecution.

I am generaly pro-rail, but feel that FCC are the worst of any TOC that I use regularly.

 

[jon0844]

The door does have a do not enter sign on but it is obscured when open.

Nevertheless, you knew it said do not enter even if was obscured. You knew you shouldn't be in there, so why did you do it?

I've never in all my years of commuting on 313s seen these doors open. If they're being left open then I wonder if passengers themselves are using a key obtained illegally to open them. I'm actually surprised they don't then close the door behind them.

It's worth adding that on an 8-car 317 with the doors opened in the middle, you can stand by the cab (which is locked off).. and passengers seem to then be rather selfish by closing the doors to lock themselves in - which also means you can no longer walk through the entire train.

I'm not sure if there's a specific offence for closing a door though!

 

[ValleyLines142]

It does sound a bit like a scam to me.
I have little sympathy with those who travel without valid tickets, unless they have a very good reason indeed.

But observing the extreme overcrowding on many FCC services, I have my doubts about this sort of prosecution.
Provided that no harm or danger results from standing in this area it seems very mean indeed to prosecute for so doing.
It would be most unwise to allow the public access to the driving cab, but surely this should be locked ?

I reluctantly used an FCC service this morning, it was appallingly overcrowded with many potential customers left behind at at least two stops, If a train is that overcrowded, I feel that an apology from the TOC is in order, not prosecution.

I am generaly pro-rail, but feel that FCC are the worst of any TOC that I use regularly.

Couldn't agree more there. A very good explanation.

 

[jon0844]

But observing the extreme overcrowding on many FCC services, I have my doubts about this sort of prosecution.
Provided that no harm or danger results from standing in this area it seems very mean indeed to prosecute for so doing.
It would be most unwise to allow the public access to the driving cab, but surely this should be locked ?

Firstly, whenever a 313 arrives at Finsbury Park to go on to Moorgate, loads of people get off. In the morning peak, quite obviously, a fair few want to get on.

Now, as someone who took a fast train to FPK and then changed to the first available train to Moorgate, I can say this.. when a 6-car train arrives, nearly everyone seems to have been in the front set, presumably to get quick access to the stairs. Likewise, those boarding will be trying to pack on to the front two carriages (maybe three).

Most mornings, I'd be about the only person standing down the platform - not under shelter - to board a near empty carriage.

Yes, the trains can be packed to Finsbury Park (so I have sympathy for those boarding at stations along the line), but I have little sympathy for those moaning about overcrowding just because they keep getting on the most crowded carriages - a common problem on ALL trains. If you're already on the train, consider getting off and walking down to another carriage that has likely seen loads of people alight and very few wanting to get on. The trains usually stop for some time on platform 1, and as they're manually despatched you're unlikely to be left behind as you'll be on the train before the rest are squeezing on through two or three sets of doors like sheep.

There are a couple of 3-car only services (simply because there aren't enough trains) but the next train is only a few minutes away! It's the one part of the FCC route where it's almost like a tube train frequency.

And, depending on your ticket type, if you regularly struggle to get on a train going the other way in the evening peak, consider taking a train backwards to Old Street or Moorgate and come back. Fact is, the platforms can only take 6-car trains and there are limited paths so the only thing to improve things going ahead will be new rolling stock and that's nothing to do with FCC.

 

[Dave1987]

Right now we know exactly were the OP was standing then it does seem someone had access to a 21 key and has opened this door. That vestibule is not a passenger area and has free access to the cab. Seems like the train crew have got fed up of this and it is an FCC sting.
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It does sound a bit like a scam to me.
I have little sympathy with those who travel without valid tickets, unless they have a very good reason indeed.

But observing the extreme overcrowding on many FCC services, I have my doubts about this sort of prosecution.
Provided that no harm or danger results from standing in this area it seems very mean indeed to prosecute for so doing.
It would be most unwise to allow the public access to the driving cab, but surely this should be locked ?

I reluctantly used an FCC service this morning, it was appallingly overcrowded with many potential customers left behind at at least two stops, If a train is that overcrowded, I feel that an apology from the TOC is in order, not prosecution.

I am generaly pro-rail, but feel that FCC are the worst of any TOC that I use regularly.

The sliding door the OP went through is the locked door protecting the cab, someone must have access to a 21 key and opened this door.

 

[Ferret]

My knowledge of 313s is non-existent, but I have to say that as a general principle that if I don't want somebody to stand somewhere or be somewhere then the door is locked! HST power cars for instance! Methinks FCC need to prevent access to this area here. It's obvious that they are making an example of people such as the OP in the hope that word gets round and it deters others - I think they'd be quite grateful of the Daily Mail et al running a story to publicise that you will be prosecuted if caught there.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Wow - quite some response.
In answer to some of your questions:
- I entered the area through an internal door in the carriage, the sliding door was fully open. The door does have a do not enter sign on but it is obscured when open.

When I checked this morning the same area was full of people (not me).

At the time of the incident there were British transport police present - it felt like it definitely had been planned and going on for a long while already that morning - all the staff were very bored with yet another form to fill in.

So is the consensus that I should apologise for my mistake and offer to pay reasonable administration costs in a hope they will not take to case to magistrates court?

To get back to the OPs question, you have a choice. If what you say is true and you a prepared to go to court and swear it on oath, you would have a reasonable defence if the connecting door was open (thus obscuring the 'private' sign) and there were other passengers in the area on this and other occasions reasonably giving you the impression that it was a public area.

You may want to avoid this and try for an out-of-court settlement, but there is a legal process behind this that does give you rights too.

I would suggest that FCC have carried out this action to try and stop passengers riding in the vestibules and would therefore suspect that they don't really want to have to manage a lot of court cases, especially given that proving the fact under byelaw 10 may be difficult if it can be demonstrated that it was not immediately apparent the area was off limits.

PS before the vultures set about me, I am very familiar with class 313 units and the area in question was often used in the past for people, bicycles etc. when these units were crew operated in the 1980s. The driver's cab is screened off so it is not an obviously operational area but much more akin to the old guards vans on slam door stock (which of course were passenger accommodation for luggage, wheelchairs etc). Therefore enforcement of byelaw 10 requires that the area is clearly signed as a private non-passenger area - it is not necessarily 'obvious'.

 

[jon0844]

On the pictures of the 'new' Network Rail 313121 ERTMS train you can see what appears to be a door that cannot be locked/secured.

As Dave1987 has said, the door to the passenger saloon IS the only door to stop people having access to the cab and other safety equipment (ladders, fire extinguishers, PA system, possibly the CCTV equipment? etc).

If the message is sent out that it's okay to go in there, then sooner or later someone will get in there that will want to do damage - or at the very least vandalise the area. For the sake of the crew, FCC needs to be VERY tough on this and send out a strong message. It doesn't matter that the chances are slim, or that most commuters would not be silly enough to touch anything.

I have my reservations about their new revenue policy, skipping PFs and avoiding court - seeking a settlement instead, but in this case everyone is caught bang to rights and I see no reason for FCC to show any leniency.

By all means go to court and say you didn't see the notice, even though you knew and have already admitted you shouldn't have been in there. I guess it's a case of being willing to lie in court and pleading ignorance, and I'd imagine the only chance of being able to use that defence might be if that was the first time you'd ever been on that train and you had no reason to assume it was out of bounds.

 

[LexyBoy]

My knowledge of 313s is non-existent, but I have to say that as a general principle that if I don't want somebody to stand somewhere or be somewhere then the door is locked! HST power cars for instance! Methinks FCC need to prevent access to this area here. It's obvious that they are making an example of people such as the OP in the hope that word gets round and it deters others - I think they'd be quite grateful of the Daily Mail et al running a story to publicise that you will be prosecuted if caught there.

I agree. If it's a known problem then the solution is to lock the door properly (or put a guard in charge of that area, but that's a bit radical). At the moment it sounds like a small number of people are opening them, and because the services are DOO they stay open until the end of service. FCC putting up with this sends out a message that it's OK to stand in this area.

Randomly prosecuting a few people who stand there is very underhand IMO (but very FCC). If FCC want to do some prosecutions, they should sit plain clothes RPIs next to those doors and wait for the chap with the key.
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If the message is sent out that it's okay to go in there, then sooner or later someone will get in there that will want to do damage - or at the very least vandalise the area. For the sake of the crew, FCC needs to be VERY tough on this and send out a strong message. It doesn't matter that the chances are slim, or that most commuters would not be silly enough to touch anything.

Someone who wants to do some damage is unlikely to have read, or to be put off by, stories of people being fined for standing in the wrong part of the train. Which is why I say that they should just lock the door properly (it's not as if it's needed in service anyway).

 

[Clip]

If the door is open when it shouldn't have been, and the crush of people meant that any sign that the public should not have been there was obscured, then passengers who claim to be unobservant could have a reasonable defence that they weren't aware that they should not have been there.

As for offering to pay "administartion costs" as an alternative to prosecution, well that's exactly where the scam is. Lucrative little earner for TOCs.

I've not seen anything to indicate that FCC would settle for just costs out of court tho - just the op and a few posters suggesting it.

I reckon FCC would per sue this one all the way given the severe abuse that is apparent of people being where they should not be.

Don't they keep the detonators and flags in that area too still? Sure I remember them being nicked when I worked at the cross years ago or does the driver pick them up from mess room?

Just think neilmc if the safety equipment was stolen or damaged through people being in there and an accident occurred would you still call it a scam or would you then blame FCC for not doing something about it?


Overly dramatic,yes. But that is why that area is out of bounds for passengers and probably why FCC are taking a stand against it

 

[jon0844]

Someone who wants to do some damage is unlikely to have read, or to be put off by, stories of people being fined for standing in the wrong part of the train. Which is why I say that they should just lock the door properly (it's not as if it's needed in service anyway).

You are right, but if the door is simply being left open by commuters unlocking the door unofficially, and leaving it open as some sort of 'service' to others then this creates a risk. I was initially thinking that someone getting access would shut the door, but the more I think about it the more I think there's probably a small group of regulars that feel they're taking some sort of stand.

Stop people opening the door (I really don't believe they're being left open accidentally, although I can see that being used as a defence) and you will at least reduce the chances of the wrong people getting in then, or after they've alighted. I can well believe the doors being open might not be noticed for ages, as FCC keep most trains as 6-car for most of the day I believe.

What if someone in the morning is 'let in' and sees what is in there and then tells their mates who have a go later? I know you can see in from the platform, but I am sure most people are ignorant of it.

If FCC want to do some prosecutions, they should sit plain clothes RPIs next to those doors and wait for the chap with the key.

Perhaps they will, as that would be a good way to catch the main offender(s). Clearly a lot of people only go in because it's open already.

 

[LexyBoy]

You are right, but if the door is simply being left open by commuters unlocking the door unofficially, and leaving it open as some sort of 'service' to others then this creates the risk.

If it were properly locked then this would prevent it being opened by "helpful" commuters. Once it's open commuters have no way of knowing who opened it - it could easily be interpreted as tacit permission to use it. Just bolting a padlock on would do, unless there's a requiement for emergency access.

 

[michael769]

I'm not sure if there's a specific offence for closing a door though!

I would imagine it would classed as interfering with the train under byelaw 11(1)

 

[455driver]

Insofar as we flock together to pay your salary? No need for comments like that.

So the OP knew he shouldnt be in there but because the door was open and there were other people in there he went in!

That isnt sheep like behaviour how exactly?

Where do you work, I may well pay your wages, yawn. :roll:

Maybe you would like me to come to your place of work, go into a private/non public area and have a nose around!

 

[SWTCommuter]

In the time we were waiting for our details to be recorded another 10-20 people were taken off each train as it came through the station - one train every 4 minutes at that time.

This suggests to me that there was a passenger with a key on each train (unlikely) or the doors weren't locked in the first place.

 

[455driver]

PS before the vultures set about me, I am very familiar with class 313 units and the area in question was often used in the past for people, bicycles etc. when these units were crew operated in the 1980s.

This area is also, sometimes, used in the front cab when there is disruption and the driver locks the internal cab door and lets people in through the cad side door.

Not often but I have done it a few times when the timetable has gone base over apex.

Are we allowed, no of course not, but it is my train and I am still separated from the punters so its still safe even if they are effectively locked in.

 

[jon0844]

I'm going with a passenger having a key theory, as I've never once seen one of those doors open. Every driver I've seen getting on/off has used the side door (can't say they never do obviously), but a driver won't be going into a cab in the middle of the train - and if s/he did then I doubt it would be left open afterwards.

I bet it's usually the same group of people, and over time some others have seen what has been going on and thought 'I want in on that', thus proving the sheep behaviour theory.

 

[Monty]

This suggests to me that there was a passenger with a key on each train (unlikely) or the doors weren't locked in the first place.

I'm inclined to think a passenger(s) had access to a key, I highly doubt traincrew would leave doors that separate a cab from the passenger saloon open. A driver or guard could get a right bollocking for leaving a cab unsecure.

 

[rdwarr]

So the OP knew he shouldnt be in there but because the door was open and there were other people in there he went in!

That isnt sheep like behaviour how exactly?

Where do you work, I may well pay your wages, yawn. :roll:

Maybe you would like me to come to your place of work, go into a private/non public area and have a nose around!

Sorry that my aplogoy was't enough for you. The comment I made about partnership stands - you may well pay some of my wages and I would extend you the same courtesy as I do to others on that basis. I would not slag off my customers with insulting generalisations though.

This may well have been "sheep like behaviour" but that's different from saying that all commuters do the same.

Getting back on topic - it would be interesting to stand at Finsbury Park in the morning peak to see how many southbound 313s actually have people standing in these areas. If it's a lot then it's unlikely that the trains are full of passengers with keys and more likely that the doors are unlocked.

 

[Wath Yard]

This suggests to me that there was a passenger with a key on each train (unlikely) or the doors weren't locked in the first place.

Either that or they are easily forced. Suggestions that there is some kind of secret society that has a rota for members with keys to board each and every peak train seem to be flights of fancy.

The fact there was a sting operation also suggests FCC know there is a problem with the doors but rather than fixing it it's easier for them to just nick a few people standing where they shouldn't.

 

[Wath Yard]

Commuters are just individuals getting to work. Although some lines do have user groups, which I seriously doubt would organise such a thing as obtaining keys, they are not an organised group.

 

[Monty]

Either that or they are easily forced. Suggestions that there is some kind of secret society that has a rota for members with keys to board each and every peak train seem to be flights of fancy.

The fact there was a sting operation also suggests FCC know there is a problem with the doors but rather than fixing it it's easier for them to just nick a few people standing where they shouldn't.

If they are anything like the doors that partition the cabs and passenger areas on 455s the doors are quite secure and robust so long as the door has been moved into the closed position correctly.

 

[455driver]

Getting back on topic - it would be interesting to stand at Finsbury Park in the morning peak to see how many southbound 313s actually have people standing in these areas. If it's a lot then it's unlikely that the trains are full of passengers with keys and more likely that the doors are unlocked.

I tell you what I will be at the other end of the line and make sure ALL doors are closed before the train sets off, I wonder how many will magically open en route to you?

I bet its more than one or two.

 

[455driver]

If they are anything like the doors that partition the cabs and passenger areas on 455s the doors are quite secure and robust so long as the door has been moved into the closed position correctly.

They are the same and the locks are identical, once the door is pulled closed it will engage the lock which can only be opened using a BR1 or some may be able to be forced open but the simple act of pulling the door closed will engage the lock.

 

[Monty]

They are the same and the locks are identical, once the door is pulled closed it will engage the lock which can only be opened using a BR1 or some may be able to be forced open but the simple act of pulling the door closed will engage the lock.

I did think PEP and Mk3 based stock had similar arrangements regarding cab and passenger saloon doors. Thanks for confirming.

 

[455driver]

Thanks for confirming.

Ney problem.