Please help - FCC: Notice of Intention to prosecute

[scotty21]

Hello

I wonder if anyone can give me some guidance on a letter I received from First Capital Connect?

I was on my way into work on the usual packed train and I was standing in the guards area at the end of the train. There were about a dozen other commuters in the same area (as there are everyday I get the train). The train was stopped at Essex Road and we were asked off the train. In the time we were waiting for our details to be recorded another 10-20 people were taken off each train as it came through the station - one train every 4 minutes at that time. I know that you shouldn't stand in there and I know that it is very weak to say this, but people do it everyday on every train that is running, only because it is impossibly full due to the late running of the service.

the Notice of intention to Prosecute states it is for - Occupying a part of the train not intended for use by passengers.

I have been asked to fill in a form giving my side of the story. Is there anything I can do apart from being polite, apologising and offering to pay their administration costs? I really do not want a criminal record/prison sentence/etc.

Any guidance would be really helpful.

thank you

 

[michael769]

Before we can give more guidance it would be helpful if you could confirm a couple of points.

To the best of your knowledge did any of the passengers (including those you had no connection with) cause any damage or use force to gain entry to this area?

Did you immediately comply with any instruction to leave this area without any argument?

Does the letter specify which legislation they are looking to proscute under?

 

[Stigy]

It's a strange thing to prosecute for to be honest, and usually a request to leave is more suitable, unless occupying First Class of course. Unfortunately though, if you were in this area, you have committed a Byelaw offence under Byelaw 10(2) of the National Rail Byelaws 2005.

Can you confirm it was a restricted area and not a First Class one? Seems strange how so many people would be in a restricted area of a train?

 

[Ferret]

It's a strange thing to prosecute for to be honest, and usually a request to leave is more suitable, unless occupying First Class of course. Unfortunately though, if you were in this area, you have committed a Byelaw offence under Byelaw 10(2) of the National Rail Byelaws 2005.

Can you confirm it was a restricted area and not a First Class one? Seems strange how so many people would be in a restricted area of a train?

I thought that! I'm not familiar with FCC's units I have to say, but this sounds like a targeted sting to me! Almost as though train crew have noted it as a problem and they decided to have a purge.

 

[michael769]

There had been reports in threads on here of people the back cabs and local door corridors on some services. It's possible that it has started to cause the guards trouble (for example refusal to vacate the area), or a trains are being damaged and they have decided to crackdown on it.

As we know FCC have been adopting an increasingly zero tolerance approach of late.

 

[Dave1987]

They could have been stood in the vestibule like the 315 has behind the cab. They are staff only areas.

 

[rdwarr]

They could have been stood in the vestibule like the 315 has behind the cab. They are staff only areas.

I'm guessing this was a 313 and that was the case. It's a while since I've been on one so I don't know if they now carry signage to that effect. It's also likely that the doors open the same as any other doors on the push of a button.

BTW the OP asked the same question on the CAG forum and was immediately accused of being in the rear cab. There did not seem to be any evidence to back this up.

 

[bb21]

Does anything other than Class 313s operate into Moorgate? If not, then they couldn't have been standing in First Class as they don't have them on 313s AFAIK.

 

[Mojo]

There had been reports in threads on here of people the back cabs and local door corridors on some services. It's possible that it has started to cause the guards trouble (for example refusal to vacate the area), or a trains are being damaged and they have decided to crackdown on it.

Trains on this line are DOO and do not have guards. It sounds to me as if the OP was stood in the vestibule in between the rear cab and the saloon.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Rather unusually this isn't actually related to Fares & Ticketing - its a Byelaw prosecution, looks like contravention on Byelaw 10. It's a 'Strict Liability' offence so providing the facts are proved guilt is established but there's no criminal conviction or record.

 

[Dave1987]

The vestibule between the cab and the passenger area usually has a door which you need a 21 key or a carriage key to open. If it was the case that the OP was stood in this vestibule then the door would have had of have been left open. But there are usually signs to indicate that it is not a public area as it has free access to the cab in there.

 

[Stigy]

Rather unusually this isn't actually related to Fares & Ticketing - its a Byelaw prosecution, looks like contravention on Byelaw 10. It's a 'Strict Liability' offence so providing the facts are proved guilt is established but there's no criminal conviction or record.

Indeed, although there will be a criminal conviction, there's just no record of it on the PNC.

 

[island]

This is a new one to me!

As mentioned above, thankfully the offence in question does not carry either a prison sentence or a criminal record.

 

[neilmc]

Curiouser and curiouser. Is it just another TOC-inspired scam, then?

Given the number of people they've allegedly collared there should be some major comeback in the press, at least in the London area.

 

[Dave1987]

If they were in this vestibule, I think the question needs to be asked as to how all the passengers gained access to this area. If the door was not locked, FCC are somewhat to blame. But if the signs were clear that it was a non-public area and they chose to ignore them then it is a different story. We certainly get a telling off if we leave any cab door insecure. I know TOC's take cab security very seriously.

 

[telstarbox]

Why weren't the passengers just asked to move?

 

[Dave1987]

Why weren't the passengers just asked to move?

They may well have been but refused. Plus if this wasnt the first time etc etc. Shouldn't really speculate though

 

[455driver]

Why weren't the passengers just asked to move?

Because they would just go in there again tomorrow and the day after etc.:roll:

IF there are signs saying "Private" or "staff only" or something like that then they are guilty.

Just because lots of people do it every day doesnt make it right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a strange thing to prosecute for to be honest,<snipped>
Seems strange how so many people would be in a restricted area of a train?

They are where they shouldnt be so tough, the OP even stated

I know that you shouldn't stand in there

Once they see one person in there everyone else just follows in, commuters are like sheep.

 

[rdwarr]

Once they see one person in there everyone else just follows in, commuters are like sheep.

Insofar as we flock together to pay your salary? No need for comments like that.

 

[Clip]

Curiouser and curiouser. Is it just another TOC-inspired scam, then?

Given the number of people they've allegedly collared there should be some major comeback in the press, at least in the London area.

A scam how? For the fines they may recieve in court?

Id say given the OP stating that there were many trains coming through that had people being pulled off for the same that FCC are doing this in the name of safety for not only the passengers stood there but the rest of the train also. If its a restricted area with access to the cab then thats pretty serious in my eyes.

 

[causton]

Insofar as we flock together to pay your salary? No need for comments like that.

And there's no need for comments like that as well? The 'we pay your salary' line instantly makes many people ignore any valid discussion points you have if you come out with a line like that. It's obvious. You pay for a service. So a staff member is indirectly paid by you. Well done

 

[Monty]

Insofar as we flock together to pay your salary? No need for comments like that.

If that is indeed the case i've been meaning to speak to you about that pay rise this year...

Speaking seriously for a second though, it's the first instance I've heard of passengers being collared for being in a non public area of a train. I'm quite surprised that the TOCs are bothering to follow through with a prosecution, as Ferret has already mentioned it sounds like a pre planned exercise in response to complaints from train crew.

That said I have little sympathy however for those caught. You could do a great deal of damage or harm in the back cab of a train if you touch things you shoudn't, what I am more curious to know is how the OP and other passengers gained access in the first place. If the train in question was indeed PEP based stock or similiar you would need at least a BR1B or carriage for access.

 

[maniacmartin]

Can anyone show on a floor plan of a train the area of the train we're referring to here? I'm slightly confused as to where the passengers actually were.

 

[Clip]

Roughly see that door right at the front? There. its a little area then a door to the drivers cab on the right and one to the saloon IIRC.

 

[scotty21]

Wow - quite some response.

In answer to some of your questions:
- I entered the area through an internal door in the carriage, the sliding door was fully open. The door does have a do not enter sign on but it is obscured when open.

When I checked this morning the same area was full of people (not me).

At the time of the incident there were British transport police present - it felt like it definitely had been planned and going on for a long while already that morning - all the staff were very bored with yet another form to fill in.

So is the consensus that I should apologise for my mistake and offer to pay reasonable administration costs in a hope they will not take to case to magistrates court?

Really appreciate the interest you are taking - thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And in answer to the question regarding whether we were asked to move - no we weren't. Of course I would have but I wasn't given that option.

 

[455driver]

And in answer to the question regarding whether we were asked to move - no we weren't. Of course I would have but I wasn't given that option.

The offence had already been commited at that stage so no reason to ask you to leave.

This is also my feelings of people in 1st class with a standard class ticket, they should be charged to the next station and then they have to leave.

So a passenger has got hold of a BR1 and opened the door, I wonder what the law is on passengers being searched?

 

[michael769]

So a passenger has got hold of a BR1 and opened the door, I wonder what the law is on passengers being searched?

The police have powers to search anyone they reasonably suspect may have stolen property on them. Finding someone in a private area that was locked is IMO grounds to reasonably suspect that they may be in possession of a stolen key.

ToC staff do not have powers to force someone to submit to a search without the police present, but they can of course ask the person to agree to a voluntary search.

 

[rdwarr]

And there's no need for comments like that as well? The 'we pay your salary' line instantly makes many people ignore any valid discussion points you have if you come out with a line like that. It's obvious. You pay for a service. So a staff member is indirectly paid by you. Well done

Apologies, it was an ill advised case of "fighting fire with fire".

For the record I've been commuting for many years and have always been a great supporter of the railways and their staff. (Some of you will recognise my surname from current and past TOC employees). I like to think of my journey to work as a partnership between customer and supplier - we're all in it together.

 

[neilmc]

If the door is open when it shouldn't have been, and the crush of people meant that any sign that the public should not have been there was obscured, then passengers who claim to be unobservant could have a reasonable defence that they weren't aware that they should not have been there.

As for offering to pay "administartion costs" as an alternative to prosecution, well that's exactly where the scam is. Lucrative little earner for TOCs.

 

[Flamingo]

Insofar as we flock together to pay your salary? No need for comments like that.

We're even then, as I pay your benefits.