Please don't walk through first class

[martinsh]

The problem will get even worse on EC when "third class" is reintroduced !!

 

[DarloRich]

I have heard it many times on EC and others. I guess it is to stop people upsetting the darlings in first class. The benefit EC have is that you have to pass several staff members or travel through a staff seating area to reach first class. I assume this will turn back many would be offenders leaving only the most committed for the guard to deal with.

I had it on EMT once. My train was late into St Pancras so I moved to the front to bail. I wouldn't normally bother with this as frankly walking along the platform is easier than through a busy train. A silly wee girl working in the buffet car told me not to but I ignored her because I had a connection onto FCC to make. She followed me and told me again not to, but I explained that I was only doing this because EMT, her employer, had made me late and therefore necessitated this move, adding that I wouldn't normally dream of invading the rarefied atmosphere of first class with my offensive (and presumably smelly) second class personage. She left me alone then.

The employee was doing her job and you seem to have been needlessly rude. Bet that made you feel good didn’t it.

NO ! a first class ticket is valid in standard, nothing prevents a first class ticket holder from sitting in, passing through, or standing in steerage if they so wish.

A standard ticket is not valid in first (unless specialy authorised) and holders of such tickets should not use first class accomadation, even briefly to pass through.

As a fairly regular first class rail user I object to first being invaded by standard class passengers for the last 30 minutes or more.
On long distance FGW services into London, large numbers of standard class passengers regulary move forward into First in order to alight at Reading, and after the Reading stop a second batch move forward to be first out at Paddington.
This results in considerable congestion with the aisles being blocked by luggage and baby carriages. Those who hold first class tickets are then unable to alight promptly because they have to wait for the hoards in the gangways and vestibules to move.

I sympathise entirely. Do you find it, as I do, awful having to look upon those poor wretches who have to travel in steerage? They disgust me. I realise that they are the most awful diseased scum but with great position comes great responsibility - one really must try to help those less fortunate than oneself. Perhaps you could offer them a few crumbs from your complimentary first class snack box or even your free newspaper, once you have checked you stock performance, so they can insulate themselves from the cold.

Alternatively if noblesse oblige isn’t for you perhaps you could have your manservant beat them with sticks for daring to look upon you, perhaps you could round up the children to work in your mill or even use one of the oiks as a foot stool. It hasn’t been quite the same since it become illegal to burn them as fuel source. I assume you treat the buffet car attendants, as I do, as staff. One doesn’t talk to them you understand. I can barely look at them they are so disgusting and poor. It goes without saying that they should not speak to you unless spoken to. Frankly I prefer to send my man to obtain refreshments as he is of their class and understands their awful coarse language and gruntings in a way I never can. I would travel in my own motorised conveyance but these railway company “locomotives” or fire beasts can cover the ground at such a tremendous speed. Imagine one can leave ones hise and arrive at ones club in less than 4 hours!

 

[GodAtum]

I sympathise entirely. Do you find it, as I do, awful having to look upon those poor wretches who have to travel in steerage? They disgust me. I realise that they are the most awful diseased scum but with great position comes great responsibility - one really must try to help those less fortunate than oneself. Perhaps you could offer them a few crumbs from your complimentary first class snack box or even your free newspaper, once you have checked you stock performance, so they can insulate themselves from the cold.

Alternatively if noblesse oblige isn’t for you perhaps you could have your manservant beat them with sticks for daring to look upon you, perhaps you could round up the children to work in your mill or even use one of the oiks as a foot stool. It hasn’t been quite the same since it become illegal to burn them as fuel source. I assume you treat the buffet car attendants, as I do, as staff. One doesn’t talk to them you understand. I can barely look at them they are so disgusting and poor. It goes without saying that they should not speak to you unless spoken to. Frankly I prefer to send my man to obtain refreshments as he is of their class and understands their awful coarse language and gruntings in a way I never can. I would travel in my own motorised conveyance but these railway company “locomotives” or fire beasts can cover the ground at such a tremendous speed. Imagine one can leave ones hise and arrive at ones club in less than 4 hours!

One completely agrees. Often one throws biscuit crumbs at commoners feet and have beaten one with my Gieves & Hawkes umbrella when it looked at me. One can barely look at all the poor at East Croydon who stand in one's way when one is trying to get into 1st class of a 377.

One has complained to FGW and SWT a number of times regarding plebs walking into 1st class and blocking the exit.

 

[swt_passenger]

What about when standard class passengers are passing though to use the toilet at the other side of the first class accommodation, or when there is standard class accommodation on either side of first class accommodation (e.g. on Class 185's, 350's/450's, 180's etc..)?

Doesn't happen on that type of stock as far as I know. When this matter has cropped up before no-one has ever suggested it does, either.

 

[221129]

With regards to RPI's I am aware that FGW do occasionally put a load of RPI's on the 1st Class doors and they shuttle from Paddington - Reading to stop people boarding and alighting there and any who do get PF'ed. How often it is done I don't know, however it has happened before, and with the rise in revenue staff in all areas it will most likely happen again.

 

[JamesRowden]

When a train is about to leave London some standard class passengers need to go through first class or risk missing the train. There was a Manchester United fan sitting in first class who was shouting abuse at standard class passengers for doing this at Paddington in August.

 

[cuccir]

For the journey London-Newcastle, you can currently buy Advance first class tickets on East Coast's website for:

• £77.90 for this Wednesday at 08:30
• £69.10 for a week on Wednesday at 08:30
• £44.50 for Friday January 31st on several trains (current end of booking window)

By contrast, the cheapest walk-up single for these trains is £150.50 (the £60.50 off-peak single is flexible, but not walk-up: it must be purchased in advance, and is not available for the two services at 08:30 anyway). While cheaper Advances are usually available in standard, the gap is often less than £20 and should be set off against free coffee/food. With that taken into account, you're often paying roughly a tenner for the leg room, privacy and comfort: not a bad deal.

Basically, the idea that people who are in first class are always those who've paid a pretty penny (the underlying sentiment behind the 'bolshie' comments above) for it is patently nonsense.

 

[Muzer]

When a train is about to leave London some standard class passengers need to go through first class or risk missing the train. There was a Manchester United fan sitting in first class who was shouting abuse at standard class passengers for doing this at Paddington in August.

This is more acceptable than the reverse, but I'll submit they should have arrived on time

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I travel in first class quite often on long distance runs to London etc and I'm not arsed who's walking through or using the exit. I also walk through first class if I just make a train and may not make it if I had used the platform. I also have been ushered into FC by a TM in this instance as well. It's a train, it's public, as long as people who have not paid for first class are not actually enjoying the privileges of it I don't see a problem.

As a side note (can of worms), is there a dress-code for first class? Only once I was a bit offended after an elderly couple asked the TM if I was dressed right within earshot. I told them it's my choice what I wear and if they don't like it they could move to where they aren't observing my clothes. They just told me something like "It wouldn't have been hard to at least have made an effort" to which I shook my head to and carried on with whatever I was doing. Was I right or wrong to say this?

 

[WelshBluebird]

This is more acceptable than the reverse, but I'll submit they should have arrived on time

And if they simply could not help it? (if their incoming connection was late etc).

 

[A-driver]

For the journey London-Newcastle, you can currently buy Advance first class tickets on East Coast's website for:

• £77.90 for this Wednesday at 08:30
• £69.10 for a week on Wednesday at 08:30
• £44.50 for Friday January 31st on several trains (current end of booking window)

By contrast, the cheapest walk-up single for these trains is £150.50. While cheaper Advances are usually available in standard, the gap is often less than £20 and should be set off against free coffee/food. With that taken into account, you're often paying roughly a tenner for the leg room, privacy and comfort: not a bad deal.

Basically, the idea that people who are in first class are always those who've paid a pretty penny (the underlying sentiment behind the 'bolshie' comments above) for it is patently nonsense.

Quite simply, on trains where first is at one end like most intercity operators there is no reason for standard ticket holders to be in first class weather passing through to get off or not. Getting on I can understand as station staff will get people on through the nearest door to get the train out on time but not when getting off.

It makes no difference how much money has been paid. The only people on here suggesting that first class is a higher better atmosphere and shouldn't be spoilt by standard 'scum' are those saying that they were in standard trying to walk through first to get off. I don't think anyone who travels in first class honestly thinks they are a 'better class of people'. As you say, a 'scumbag' could spend £20 on am advance ticket and sit in first class being generally annoying and anti social.

First is always more expensive than standard when comparing relevant ticket prices. Sorry but I don't buy the £20 first class bought 3 months in advance compared to the £200 standard on the day, you can only compare the £20 first advance with the £5 standard advance and the £200 on the day standard with the £500 first walk up fare. Otherwise you are getting into all sorts of 'class' territory. Perhaps those on cheaper standard advances should have to remain seated until all those on more expensive standard walk on fares have alighted first etc?

Just because your standard ticket cost more than someone's first ticket it dosnt mean you can walk into the first class carriage. By that logic you should be able to chuck them out their first class seat when you get on and make them sit in your standard seat as you trump them money wise...

 

[AndyLandy]

It's a shame, because there's a very easy fix here. You ask the staff if they'd mind if you nipped through to the end vestibule, as you have a connection to make. Odds are, if you're polite and your request isn't unreasonable, most staff will allow you to.

I'm sure there are some byelaws that you can be penalised under for being in the incorrect accommodation and being rude to a staff member. But whatever the case, there's really no need for it.

As for the overall discussion, I've seen the issue raised once or twice before and it usually boils down to the difference between explicit and implicit advantages of first class.

The explicit advantages are the superior quality of seating (not that you're actually guaranteed a seat); potentially some complimentary services such as nibbles, drinks and wifi; and perhaps being closer to the barriers at the London end of an Intercity journey.

The implicit advantages are those that aren't stated, but can realistically be assumed. You expect to get a seat (since it's highly unlikely to be completely full); you expect a quieter and more peaceful ride (in part explicit, because the carriage accommodates fewer passengers, but also in part implicit due to the expected nature of other first class travellers.)

Whether you consider the implicit advantages should be upheld as far as possible, or whether you think they should be of no consequence is entirely dependant on opinion. Are first class travellers all 'toffs' who look down on the rest of the 'plebs' in standard and they get what they deserve if there's a bunch of rowdy passengers in first class? Or are they people who've paid a whole lot more for their ticket (probably subsiding the rest of the travellers) who should be allowed to experience the better quality of service that they've paid for?

 

[stut]

First is always more expensive than standard when comparing relevant ticket prices. Sorry but I don't buy the £20 first class bought 3 months in advance compared to the £200 standard on the day, you can only compare the £20 first advance with the £5 standard advance and the £200 on the day standard with the £500 first walk up fare.

The cheapest relevant ticket price is the one available at time of booking - not the one theoretically set at the same level. I've found several occasions where standard advance tickets had sold out, but first advance were still available.

 

[Muzer]

And if they simply could not help it? (if their incoming connection was late etc).

Then that's fair enough, as I said it's a lot more acceptable than the reverse - my suggestion of them arriving on time was, of course, a joke, admittedly not a very good one.

 

[stut]

As a side note (can of worms), is there a dress-code for first class? Only once I was a bit offended after an elderly couple asked the TM if I was dressed right within earshot. I told them it's my choice what I wear and if they don't like it they could move to where they aren't observing my clothes. They just told me something like "It wouldn't have been hard to at least have made an effort" to which I shook my head to and carried on with whatever I was doing. Was I right or wrong to say this?

Well, let's be clear here... Were you wearing fairly standard casual wear (in which case, they were insufferable snobs) or a novelty offensive t-shirt (in which case, they would have an implicit right to glass you with a complimentary water bottle)?

 

[Deerfold]

As a side note (can of worms), is there a dress-code for first class? Only once I was a bit offended after an elderly couple asked the TM if I was dressed right within earshot. I told them it's my choice what I wear and if they don't like it they could move to where they aren't observing my clothes. They just told me something like "It wouldn't have been hard to at least have made an effort" to which I shook my head to and carried on with whatever I was doing. Was I right or wrong to say this?

I've sat in First class in a variety of attires, dressed up to the nines, to jeans and a t-shirt - and in a First class lounge in my full outdoor surveying outfit designed to not be approached and staying warm when spending several hours at bus stops.

I think it's polite to be clean and not smell unpleasantly but otherwise anything that's acceptable on the street should be fine.

 

[A-driver]

The cheapest relevant ticket price is the one available at time of booking - not the one theoretically set at the same level. I've found several occasions where standard advance tickets had sold out, but first advance were still available.

I don't agree. If first class is the cheaper fare at time of booking then why would you not buy that? It's a silly system to work like that but as I say, having a more expensive ticket dosnt entitle you to enter part if the train you havnt got a ticket for.

It's a different product more than anything. A standard class ticket dosnt allow you into a first class coach even if you are running late. It didn't matter how much more you paid than a first class ticket holder, your ticket is not valid in that part of the train and it's as simple as that.

 

[stut]

I don't agree. If first class is the cheaper fare at time of booking then why would you not buy that? It's a silly system to work like that but as I say, having a more expensive ticket dosnt entitle you to enter part if the train you havnt got a ticket for.

I think we are agreeing. Never mind, it's a small point.

It's a different product more than anything. A standard class ticket dosnt allow you into a first class coach even if you are running late. It didn't matter how much more you paid than a first class ticket holder, your ticket is not valid in that part of the train and it's as simple as that.

Well, it's clearly allowed sometimes - just stand next to any EC train about to leave King's Cross and watch the train crew tell people to board and walk through FC.

I get that you don't want everyone crowding 1st for an extended period before arrival, and I get that first class carriages are placed at the London end to allow an easier exit for those travelling in a premium class. But a little discretion and leeway goes a long way, and is certainly used in a number of situations. People on tight connections due to delays would be, I'd say, a pretty good time to use that discretion.

 

[OLJR]

I note with interest that this is not an issue I have ever come across on East Coast, NXEC or GNER.

The ability to get off first can be extremely useful when you want to be first in the taxi queue!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Well, let's be clear here... Were you wearing fairly standard casual wear (in which case, they were insufferable snobs) or a novelty offensive t-shirt (in which case, they would have an implicit right to glass you with a complimentary water bottle)?

For the record I was wearing a plain blue Adidas polo-shirt and tracksuit bottoms. I normally wear tracksuit bottoms anyway, never got into jeans or anything like that. I wasn't doing sport either so I wasn't sweaty or anything and I shower everyday. As for the second bit (considering you are not joking) nothing gives anybody the right to 'glass somebody with a complimentary water bottle', especially for what they may be wearing. I see somebody in Morrisons quite often who has the words **** Off tattooed into his forehead, nobody says a word.

 

[A-driver]

. People on tight connections due to delays would be, I'd say, a pretty good time to use that discretion.

I completely agree.

However by the same token, if a member of staff asks you NOT to go into first class with a standard class ticket there is no justification for ignoring them, ranting at them about their employer or making degrading personal remarks about them in a forum is there? Perhaps instead of ignoring them politely explaining that you have a tight connection and not trying to be big and clever by telling them how their employer has made them late may mean that the staff member will allow you through with a smile?

However is also raise the point that there is a good chance many people on that late running train have tight connections, in both classes. If you allow anyone with a tight connection through then it helps no one.

 

[broadgage]

I've sat in First class in a variety of attires, dressed up to the nines, to jeans and a t-shirt - and in a First class lounge in my full outdoor surveying outfit designed to not be approached and staying warm when spending several hours at bus stops.

I think it's polite to be clean and not smell unpleasantly but otherwise anything that's acceptable on the street should be fine.

Agree, no special dress code is exists, nor is one required, but one should be reasonably clean and dressed acceptably for say a visit to a high street shop or pub.

Over 15 years ago when I first regularly travelled First class between Paddington and the west, almost everyone else in First was wearing a suit and tie and I felt a little out of place by not being so dressed.
On my most recent trip, hardly anyone in first was wearing a suit and tie.

 

[A-driver]

I note with interest that this is not an issue I have ever come across on East Coast, NXEC or GNER.

The ability to get off first can be extremely useful when you want to be first in the taxi queue!

I know that is half light hearted however is it not unfair on those who perhaps bought first class tickets (weather cheaper or more expensive than your ticket) specifically or in part to allow a quick exit for getting to the front of the taxi que to then get pushed out if the way (not literally) by someone in standard?

If you are that desperate to be first off then is it not fair to suggest you buy the appropriate ticket?

 

[OLJR]

As a side note (can of worms), is there a dress-code for first class? Only once I was a bit offended after an elderly couple asked the TM if I was dressed right within earshot. I told them it's my choice what I wear and if they don't like it they could move to where they aren't observing my clothes. They just told me something like "It wouldn't have been hard to at least have made an effort" to which I shook my head to and carried on with whatever I was doing. Was I right or wrong to say this?

I think it would have been best just to say nothing and ignore them.

Once I was flying business class from Heathrow to Prague wearing a rugby shirt and at the priority boarding stage the man collecting the boarding card actually said "you don't look like a business class passenger" to me! I said nothing, handed over my boarding card and proceeded to board.

Saying nothing is the best solution I think.

 

[Deerfold]

I see somebody in Morrisons quite often who has the words **** Off tattooed into his forehead, nobody says a word.

I'm not surprised no-one says a word!

No telling what someone daft enough to do that might do.

 

[SS4]

I think those who have somehow insinuated that First passengers are somehow better is misleading especially with First Advances and Weekend First and I've seen a fair few ad hominem attacks. I've travelled in First (and will only travel first with Virgin as Chiltern and LM have better stock) and I've been looked down upon by those dressed more smartly than I but always treated well by staff

To the topic in hand you can't have one person asking for a connection because that'd open the floodgates if someone else heard (pretty likely) and eventually people would stop asking. It's a fair announcement (I remember one poster who stated passing through was allowed but to do this they'd not be allowed to stop ) because one of the perks of first is that you can relax for longer and get out early, having to fight your way past a number of people is not relaxing in the slightest.

 

[OLJR]

I know that is half light hearted however is it not unfair on those who perhaps bought first class tickets (weather cheaper or more expensive than your ticket) specifically or in part to allow a quick exit for getting to the front of the taxi que to then get pushed out if the way (not literally) by someone in standard?

If you are that desperate to be first off then is it not fair to suggest you buy the appropriate ticket?

I mean to say that as an East Coast 1ST pax I have never had cause to be disturbed by people coming through from STD (although I have seen them) and I have never heard an announcement like that mentioned up thread.

 

[Hellfire]

You can't draw any conclusions about a passenger's wealth or class from where they sit on a train so this idea that it's all snobs in the front and plebs in the back is not only simplistic but plain wrong.I've known some very scruffy down to earth people who are rolling in it and some very well turned out snobby individuals who definitely are not.

Many business people who might have travelled 1st in the past now travel standard because companies are no longer willing to pay the high fares. When I travel to London with VT on a peak morning train it's all collar and tie and smart business suits in standard.

Having said that I occasionally travel 1st if I can get a good deal. Like many people, its not the free meals that are the attraction it's the increased space and, more importantly, the ambience. 1st is much less likely have screaming babies, disruptive children and the odd yobbo playing loud music. Also, in my experience, 1st is seldom packed to the gunwales which Standard often is on peak trains.

Certainly on long distance trains there is no need for any Standard passengers to go into 1st and I would consider it an annoyance if they walked up and down the aisles continuously or packed themselves in as we approached Euston.VT often make an announcement telling passengers not to move into 1st as we approach Euston although Virgin don't seem to have the same issues that Flamingo has on FGW.

There may be a discussion to be had about the number of 1st as opposed to Standard seats on trains but that's another argument.

 

[Flamingo]

With regards to RPI's I am aware that FGW do occasionally put a load of RPI's on the 1st Class doors and they shuttle from Paddington - Reading to stop people boarding and alighting there and any who do get PF'ed. How often it is done I don't know, however it has happened before, and with the rise in revenue staff in all areas it will most likely happen again.

It happened once, for a week, over a year ago, on the evening trains leaving Paddington. It was soon back to business as usual.

With a bit of effort, it is possible on most trains to keep the First Class vestibules empty when travelling in both directions (I have the letters of complaint to prove it!). The First Class passengers appreciate it, the Customer Hosts appreciate it, and it is of benefit to STD class passengers as well, as it keeps the corridors clear so those boarding later can get through to find a seat, and are not faced with vestibules full of people they then have to try and push past.

I have to say, the only words I can use to describe those who habitually stand in the First Class vestibules are selfish and lazy. (Ok, maybe calling them that to their face is a little confrontational of me!).

As regards the announcement, it may not be the case, but I have had occasion to make a similar announcement in the past, as I thought that being wrestled to the ground by armed CP officers might cause offence to STD class passengers...

 

[OLJR]

You can't draw any conclusions about a passenger's wealth or class from where they sit on a train so this idea that it's all snobs in the front and plebs in the back is not only simplistic but plain wrong

The richest person I know, founder of one of the largest employment agencies in the UK, always travels STD on the train and Y on the plane.