Plans to curb 'rip off' rail fares.

[radamfi]

Interesting idea.

We already have the franchising authority setting fares on certain routes, for example Merseyrail and London Overground, so why not on other TOCs?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not sure you're familiar with the way Euston works in the evening at present.

People are standing, in some cases for more than two hours, leaving Euston in the evening on the 1857 / 1900 departures. There are available seats on the ones just before.

Indeed I have people who do travel regular commenting to me on how quite it was (The Off Peaks from the Cambrian are valid in the evening peak out of Euston) - I also see people who expect cheap advance purchase tickets to be available on these trains at a few days notice and then look disappointed when STAR says no!

 

[Edmorton]

The only way to have a fare structure that is as simple as it can possibly be is to get rid of all tickets and reintroduce a parliamentary fare dependant solely on the distance traveled.

 

[mikeg]

The only way to have a fare structure that is as simple as it can possibly be is to get rid of all tickets and reintroduce a parliamentary fare dependant solely on the distance traveled.

Except that this would result in many lines becoming unprofitable, either because they couldn't attract passengers or are more expensive in their operation. A partial solution might be to have a different tarriff on different sections of track, based on distance travelled but it wouldn't fit as well with our permitted routes based system.

Edit: I may as well throw my hat in the ring with a proposal. ITSO Smartcard single based pricing: Eventually phase out the existing system of flows and permitted routes for single based pricing for an ITSO smartcard. Daily caps could be imposed by operators (to increase loyalty) or PTEs etc. within a certain area and the National Smartcard Settlement authority's computer could work out the rest. What's really imprortant is that these fares are new fares akin to the oyster PAYG system and run in parallel with differently priced paper ticket fares. The paper tickets could be phased out over time. This would allow a degree of flexibility and competition while still maintaining a reasonably integrated approach. Tickets could also be preloaded onto the smartcard, such as AP fares, seasons and travelcards. Still complex but not probably as complicated to comprehend (or maintain) as the existing system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Edit: I may as well throw my hat in the ring with a proposal. ITSO Smartcard single based pricing: Eventually phase out the existing system of flows and permitted routes for single based pricing for an ITSO smartcard. Daily caps could be imposed by operators (to increase loyalty) or PTEs etc. within a certain area and the National Smartcard Settlement authority's computer could work out the rest. What's really imprortant is that these fares are new fares akin to the oyster PAYG system and run in parallel with differently priced paper ticket fares. The paper tickets could be phased out over time. This would allow a degree of flexibility and competition while still maintaining a reasonably integrated approach. Tickets could also be preloaded onto the smartcard, such as AP fares, seasons and travelcards. Still complex but not probably as complicated to comprehend (or maintain) as the existing system.

ITSO is dead and it was before anyone ever implemented it. The future of ticketing media is twofold - true e-ticketing[1] for longer distance services, and contactless card/mobile phone touch in and out for local services, with some overlap between the two.

[1] Where the ticket is stored in a database and anything you carry, which can be near enough anything official entitling you to use the ticket and can be reissued if lost etc by cancelling the old one, is simply a reference to it to allow it to be verified.

 

[yorksrob]

Ha, people “find seasons useful” because they’re the only product available to make their journey! Not many carnet products about.

Why would a season ticket be more useful than a carnet, assuming you load the both products onto a smart card (an inevitability).

Apologies - I missed this.

If like me, you tend to work a five day week, the season ticket suits as you get the weekend as a bit of a freebie. Carnet's are only really better if you work a part week, which isn't everyone by a long chalk.

 

[yorksrob]

They are good products, but they do cause complications (given that I can use a Derbyshire Wayfarer from Burton-on-Trent to Sheffield, there are then examples where it's cheaper to split tickets if doing a journey like Tamworth to Sheffield or Burton to Rotherham).

But then, are we looking for a "simple" system (where passengers won't need to split tickets or have huge knowledge in order to be able to access the best fares) or a system that has some very good value fares (that may not be apparently obvious to average passengers). I don't know which system is better, but I do know that we need to make up our mind about what question we are asking before we start coming up with an answer.

Your point about asking the right question is a highly pertinent one.

People don't want any old simpler system. You could have a very simple system with one type of ticket, but it probably wouldn't be very popular or commercially viable. What they want is for it to be simple to consistently find a good fare.

Rovers fulfil the simplicity test as they are walk up and can be bought on any day. Admittedly they're not available everywhere, but T&C's could be harmonised across the country and with decent marketing, they can become well known and familiar to the public.

Groupsave is another potentially simple offer. It's walk-up and with some harmonisation of T&C's across TOC's it could become a familiar and easy to use product across the country. It's not available everywhere, however it could be made available, certainly across regional services.

 

[bb21]

Apologies - I missed this.

If like me, you tend to work a five day week, the season ticket suits as you get the weekend as a bit of a freebie. Carnet's are only really better if you work a part week, which isn't everyone by a long chalk.

With Carnets held electronically, there could be a variety of innovations, eg. for regular customers, there is no reason why there could not be offers such as the 10th journey being free, or once you paid for 10 journeys, get the next two free, or such like.

Unlimited travel season tickets could also be retained together with more innovation in off-peak Rovers/Rangers.

 

[yorksrob]

With Carnets held electronically, there could be a variety of innovations, eg. for regular customers, there is no reason why there could not be offers such as the 10th journey being free, or once you paid for 10 journeys, get the next two free, or such like.

Unlimited travel season tickets could also be retained together with more innovation in off-peak Rovers/Rangers.

Indeed I agree. Simplification doesn't necessarily mean just getting rid of products.

 

[bb21]

Simplification definitely isn't just about removing things. Granted many things atm are overly-cryptic and should go, but that doesn't necessarily mean ending up with just the most basic range of products. It is more about accessibility, ease of understanding, and transparency than an absolute number.

 

[Hadders]

Many on here claim they want off peak times harmonised but have they thought it through. Let's say Off Peak becomes valid at 09:30.

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 0935
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 1400 - it wouldn't be acceptable for the first off peak arrival in London from Edinburgh to be 1400

You could base Off Peak validity on arrival time, let's say 10:00

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0955 arrive 1000
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0530 arrive 1000 - this would result in as many anomalies as we have today

Harmonising Off Peak restrictions is simply not feasible.

 

[wellhouse]

Isn't that a summary of the DfT's long standing position? It also accurately summaries changes that occur to TPE fares later this month. It seems unlikely that the DfT will change course now.

Just emerged from a commuter group TPE meeting in Marsden. I challenged the abolition of Cheap Day Off Peak Returns, citing the 10% effective increase to the Period Off Peak fare
from Marsden to Scarborough. In my question, I did ask that if the intention was 'simplification', then the lower fare (or an average of the two) might have been introduced, but nevertheless, the justification was ''simplification', and the Consultation was mentioned.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Many on here claim they want off peak times harmonised but have they thought it through. Let's say Off Peak becomes valid at 09:30.

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 0935
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 1400 - it wouldn't be acceptable for the first off peak arrival in London from Edinburgh to be 1400

You could base Off Peak validity on arrival time, let's say 10:00

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0955 arrive 1000
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0530 arrive 1000 - this would result in as many anomalies as we have today

Harmonising Off Peak restrictions is simply not feasible.

The only alternative would be to try and ban BoJ. Good luck with enforcing that...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Groupsave is another potentially simple offer. It's walk-up and with some harmonisation of T&C's across TOC's it could become a familiar and easy to use product across the country. It's not available everywhere, however it could be made available, certainly across regional services.

Yes, I do like GroupSave, though I think it's a big shame the discounted child fares were lost from it.

I think there could and should be a total harmonisation of (off-peak?) discounts to those offered by the Family and Friends/Network Railcards, i.e. adults pay 66% of the relevant adult fare, children pay 20% of the relevant adult fare for all discounts across the board (excluding Priv for contractual reasons).

You'd just then need to have the relevant Railcard eligibility criteria, completely separately, i.e.:
- GroupSave - must be 3 adults or more travelling together, children should also be eligible once there are. Drop the "maximum group size 10" thing because it is totally unenforceable. Drop all other group discount schemes nationally.
- Family and Friends (min 1 adult and 1 child)
- Two Together (both cardholders must travel)
- National Railcard (cardholder must travel)
- And so on.

And there would be one discount button on the ticket machine, not lots of different ones with very slightly different T&Cs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0955 arrive 1000
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0530 arrive 1000 - this would result in as many anomalies as we have today

Harmonising Off Peak restrictions is simply not feasible.

What exactly is wrong with the latter? London is the easy one by a country mile to do, really. That's why I'd propose basing it on arrival in/departure from a set of defined "big city zones". There are a few options for doing that, each one has its own small advantages and disadvantages, but all of them are better than a blanket "after 0930" which creates far more anomalies despite being visibly simple.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also just a thought - the fare system being complicated isn't itself a problem if you actually have systems in place that hide that from the passenger. Allow the passenger to use a friendly front end and the complexity can be hidden away.

I'm interested in that solution - I alluded to the fact that airline ticketing and pricing is even more complex than the railway's, yet the average layperson won't notice.

Many on here claim they want off peak times harmonised but have they thought it through. Let's say Off Peak becomes valid at 09:30.

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 0935
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 1400 - it wouldn't be acceptable for the first off peak arrival in London from Edinburgh to be 1400

You could base Off Peak validity on arrival time, let's say 10:00

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0955 arrive 1000
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0530 arrive 1000 - this would result in as many anomalies as we have today

Harmonising Off Peak restrictions is simply not feasible.

That very much assumes you retain the same fares structure with Anytimes being ruinously expensive. I don’t think anyone who advocates simplifying off peak times and harmonising them also advocates all the fares and their bands remaining exactly the same.

However, that strategy does work on CrossCountry...!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Many on here claim they want off peak times harmonised but have they thought it through. Let's say Off Peak becomes valid at 09:30.

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 0935
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0930 arrive 1400 - it wouldn't be acceptable for the first off peak arrival in London from Edinburgh to be 1400

You could base Off Peak validity on arrival time, let's say 10:00

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross depart 0955 arrive 1000
Edinburgh - Kings Cross depart 0530 arrive 1000 - this would result in as many anomalies as we have today

Harmonising Off Peak restrictions is simply not feasible.

set time limits from peak period destination. 90 minutes for regional/metro services and 135 mins for Intercity/regional express services. Edinburgh is out of any peak pricing as is Newcastle but Leeds/ York are your entry points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

set time limits from peak period destination. 90 minutes for regional/metro services and 135 mins for Intercity/regional express services. Edinburgh is out of any peak pricing as is Newcastle but Leeds/ York are your entry points.

The easiest way to do that kind of thing is to taper or cap Anytime fares so they and Off Peaks meet for long distance journeys rather than pratting with varying restrictions. It would mean no outrageously priced Manchester to London fares though.

So as an example you might have an Anytime Single from Euston to anywhere north of Preston the same as one to Preston. That removes the "Lancaster anomaly" while solving the issue that putting swingeing restrictions on a ticket to Wick is going to make it basically unusable.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Reintroduce Third Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reintroduce Third Class.

I'm not sure that's one for ticketing per-se (other than that you'd need tickets for it) but I can see room on InterCity routes for a couple of coaches of "premium economy" possibly looking a bit like the Virgin Voyager "hybrid coach" did, or like South East commuter First does (other than fraudulent "antimacassar only" 1st like Southern) - 2+2, but lots of tables, full window alignment, possibly leather seats with big headrests, First Class legroom, sockets at every seat and possibly some basic freebies (tea, coffee and a snack box), maybe for a fixed price upgrade of 10-20 quid or so at all times.

You could also argue (as Chiltern did) that all Standard should be like that.

Maybe need a new thread if we want to delve deeper into that as it's got nothing to do with fare simplification, indeed it complicates fares a bit.

 

[wellhouse]

set time limits from peak period destination. 90 minutes for regional/metro services and 135 mins for Intercity/regional express services. Edinburgh is out of any peak pricing as is Newcastle but Leeds/ York are your entry points.

And how might the limit be defined for Hebden Bridge to Brighton and vv? Legs at each end of less then 90 minutes on a journey of more than 135 minutes. Plenty of journeys involve multiple legs (and routeing options) on different categories of operator.

 

[wellhouse]

Also just a thought - the fare system being complicated isn't itself a problem if you actually have systems in place that hide that from the passenger. Allow the passenger to use a friendly front end and the complexity can be hidden away.

Spot on.

 

[mmh]

I love how in the name of simplifying tickets there are people suggesting composting cornettos, and to get rid of unfair time restrictions introducing new restrictions that'd mean a 9pm journey in the north or south west of the country could be a peak fare. Or maybe not, depending on where the train had come from. Blimey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spot on.

To an extent. The present system of having singles and returns does make that rather complex. Single-fare pricing for walk-up tickets is to me the absolute core of allowing such a system to be provided. It is the single (ha!) biggest improvement that could possibly be made to the system. It also removes the need for complexities like excesses and the likes - just refund and replace the relevant single instead.

You could still have extra bolt-on features like if you choose two of the same single you get a period return (or even better, if you choose two opposing singles of any kind the second one is valid for a month), but that needs to be totally separate from the price.

VTWC did every passenger a massive favour when they brought "Virgin Value singles" to the railway, and their concept (abandoning long book in advance thresholds in favour of quotas was also their idea) is basically what became the Advance fare. But the mind boggles as to why this never made it to walk-ups.

 

[mmh]

To an extent. The present system of having singles and returns does make that rather complex. Single-fare pricing for walk-up tickets is to me the absolute core of allowing such a system to be provided. It is the single (ha!) biggest improvement that could possibly be made to the system.

You could still have extra bolt-on features like if you choose two of the same single you get a period return (or even better, if you choose two opposing singles of any kind the second one is valid for a month), but that needs to be totally separate from the price.

Are there any countries we could perhaps model this new single ticket system on?

"if you choose two of the same single you get a period return"
"of you choose two opposing singles of any kind the second one is valid for a month"

And this is simplification?

 

[The Ham]

"if you choose two of the same single you get a period return"
"of you choose two opposing singles of any kind the second one is valid for a month"

And this is simplification?

Is it simpler, yes and no. No in that you would need to be able to link two singles together. Yes, in that there would be 1 price for each leg and so instead of there being the following there's just one price:
- single
- return
- month return

Probably there would be two types of single, a service single (you specify the service or maybe a few services where services are fairly frequent you want to use and it is priced accordingly) or an open single (which is able to be used on any service). Maybe with a third, semi flexible single, which would allow you to travel on any service within a set window (departing from station A between 10:00 and 14:00), the length of window would depend on how much was willing to be paid (for instance if you wanted it to be out of London between 17:30 and 18:30 that would be more than between 14:30 and 16:30 but the same as, between 14:30 and 20:00, as the cost would be based on the most expensive ticket in that period).

That would allow ticket prices to be set for individual services (a TOC would then not see cliff edge drops in prices) or would be priced assuming the most expensive service (i.e. peak hour services).

It could allow those who are getting the very busy service into London to then get a fairy cheap ticket in the opposite direction when they are using a service which is underused, rather than paying peak hour prices both ways.

You would probably want to have a fairy complex system as a back end with ticket prices set by TOC and the system then linking the tickets into one journey. Possibly with a new journey premium on the first part of any journey, so that if you split a ticket then you pay that premium again. However by linking tickets into a journey each stage can benefit form TOC only tickets and individual service tickets but with the option to get a full refund on the whole journey or onwards travel should one TOC cause you to miss a connection or be significantly delayed.

Yes such a system would be complex for the industry, however for passengers they would know what they were getting and would have the choice between flexibility or cost. Booking engines could give you 3 prices, an individual service price, a semi flexible price and an open price.

Due to prices being set by TOC's you for scrap tickets between most strains, for instance Hayle (Cornwall) and Bentley (Hampshire), as they would be created by linking tickets together.

There would be cost advantages if you selected a specific route, as it would be likely that a flexible route ticket would be based on the most expensive services.

As an example travel between London and Exeter would be set by GWR, however a via Honiton ticket would be set by SWR and would likely be much cheaper. However you could still have a London to Plymouth via Honiton ticket which was set by SWR between London and Exeter whilst the Exeter to Plymouth leg was set by by GWR (unless a XC service limiter was set and they would set the price). However it could be that TOC's could have leg prices set by a station call on a service. In the above example it could be that there was a discount for setting calling at Dawlish.

Yes that could mean that there's several prices between two stations, but because it's easy to see on a booking engine. As the top prices shown could be cheapest, fastest and most flexible with the option to "let me pick" which would give you the options for each leg. The most cost sensitive would opt for the cheapest, those who are time sensitive would opt for the fastest but people could see how much they could save but still not make their journey take too much longer it the choice to select certain services and/or routes.

 

[whhistle]

Very different markets - the day return and the period return - especially as you can then potentially use the return portion several times if you manage to avoid a Guard.

I get that, but why does it cost more? If "they" are that worried about people using it, why is it not a lot more expensive? Many people I see use it on one day and come back the next after seeing a show.

I could potentially use my day return three or four times in a day.

Plus, with more and more barriers coming in, many swallow tickets at the end of the journey (although that creates a problem in itself!)

Is this a huge problem? Different stations have different markets, even in London (given that some stations do longer distance trains and some like Fenchurch Street/ Marylebone don't).
And then some places don't have significant "peaks" in passenger demand - should we be applying "peak" fares to the 08:34 from Thurso to Inverness because it departs in the national morning rush hour (even though Thurso doesn't have much of a rush hour, and the next train to Inverness isn't until 13:06)?

Hence my closing comment :P

But yes, many times it can be a problem as people start assuming that peak is everywhere, and you can see why from someone who doesn't use the railway very much.

If Joe anyone turns up to Waterloo to buy a ticket at 5pm, how are they supposed to know if it's peak or off-peak they need? Most people would probably buy peak, even though they may be fine with off-peak, hence the whole "people don't trust they're getting the best value ticket" that this whole thing is about.
Let's face it, people aren't going to spend time reading the "Info" on the machine and deciphering the information on what ticket they need to buy. They just want to buy a simple ticket!

You're right, although perhaps there should be no "peak"period for those stations and instead rename the off-peak to Anytime to stop the confusion of people trying to buy a peak ticket in what they think is peak. There's many examples of people buying a ticket from A to B in the morning, but it's off-peak all the time between those stations. Yet there's other times where you can only buy an Anytime ticket, even at 12:00 midday.

 

[njamescouk]

source, please....

more in nature of a prediction than a statement of fact. pretty certain I won't see any benefit from this.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Reintroduce Third Class.

I'm not sure that's one for ticketing per-se (other than that you'd need tickets for it) ...

Maybe need a new thread if we want to delve deeper into that as it's got nothing to do with fare simplification, indeed it complicates fares a bit.

I wasn't being entirely serious! I was tempted to say "Reintroduce Third Class for simpletons as part of the simplification" but I thought that would probably be a bit too incendiary, regardless of the light-hearted intent behind it!

 

[Gareth Marston]

The easiest way to do that kind of thing is to taper or cap Anytime fares so they and Off Peaks meet for long distance journeys rather than pratting with varying restrictions. It would mean no outrageously priced Manchester to London fares though.

So as an example you might have an Anytime Single from Euston to anywhere north of Preston the same as one to Preston. That removes the "Lancaster anomaly" while solving the issue that putting swingeing restrictions on a ticket to Wick is going to make it basically unusable.

And how might the limit be defined for Hebden Bridge to Brighton and vv? Legs at each end of less then 90 minutes on a journey of more than 135 minutes. Plenty of journeys involve multiple legs (and routeing options) on different categories of operator.

A long distance journey like that where the passenger has little real choice but to hit a Peak period somewhere en route coming from within one "city peak zone" and traversing an other should be exempted. Off Peak Hebden Bridge to Brighton fares are not exactly peanuts anyway, the numbers doing it will be very small and most of them will make a bee line to avoid London at peak times anyway. Whether it will be open to abuse is another thing. Its what you do with your peak pricing from Hebden Bridge to London anyway. Price gouge like the TOC's do know and then yes some people will abuse it but if your peak fares were not as draconian the incentive to beat the system is a lot lower.