Plans to curb 'rip off' rail fares.

[JaJaWa]

A PAYG smart card system could prevent most splitting, or at least splitting without taking an extended break, quite easily. It would simply calculate your fare based over a whole day or possibly even over a period of days, however was appropriate within the system. I'm not advocating this, but it cold be possible.

It couldn’t – you could have two smartcards.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It couldn’t – you could have two smartcards.

Of course if we had a compulsory carry national ID card that also acted as a travel smartcard, that issue could be solved - no-one has two smartcards. Tourists and visitors would get issued a registered smartcard on production of their passport or their own national ID card, perhaps at their entry point to Fortress Britain.

And no, I'm not seriously suggesting that for a minute, but I suspect a few might come up with something along those lines!

 

[The Ham]

Of course if we had a compulsory carry national ID card that also acted as a travel smartcard, that issue could be solved - no-one has two smartcards. Tourists and visitors would get issued a registered smartcard on production of their passport or their own national ID card, perhaps at their entry point to Fortress Britain.

And no, I'm not seriously suggesting that for a minute, but I suspect a few might come up with something along those lines!

What would make it better is of the ID card had a GPS tracker on it so it would be easy to identify who was on any given service so that a) ticket prices could be charged depending on how many people were in the service and 2) there would be an easy way to have automatic delay repay.

(Likewise not a serious post)

 

[JaJaWa]

Of course if we had a compulsory carry national ID card that also acted as a travel smartcard, that issue could be solved - no-one has two smartcards. Tourists and visitors would get issued a registered smartcard on production of their passport or their own national ID card, perhaps at their entry point to Fortress Britain.

And no, I'm not seriously suggesting that for a minute, but I suspect a few might come up with something along those lines!

Welcome to China Railways. Paper tickets for tourists and visitors sadly.

 

[Nicholas43]

What I would like to see is nationwide touch in and where you change and out, as now in London. Paper tickets phased out. Pricing based on "fare miles". No routing guide. Pay for the route you choose to take.
For example, Reading-Paddington could be more "fare miles" than real miles. Inverness-Thurso could be fewer fare miles than real miles. Sensible zonal pricing, eg Portsmouth & Southsea to Portsmouth Harbour would be zero fare miles, except for a journey within the Portsmouth zone.
Euston-Preston could not be more than Euston-Lancaster.
Price per fare mile degressive in tiers, eg up to 25 miles, 26th to 50th mile, etc.
Sensible stretches of each diagram priced at "standard", "off-peak", or "premium", colour-coded in timetables. For example, an early train from Hereford to Paddington could be off-peak for the Hereford to Worcester stretch, standard Worcester to Kingham, and premium Kingham to Paddington.
Four classes of fares: First class (only on proper big trains); Second class (what is now called first class on the likes of Turbos); Third class (what is now called "standard"); and Fourth class (pacers).
No seasons, but discounts for people who travel more than stated quotas of fare miles in a given (say) month.
Obviously, no return or "advance" fares. Separate charge for seat reservations. No railcards. Discounts for groups touching in and out together (and no, I don't know how that would be technically possible!)

 

[Smidster]

So it appears that the consultation is going to be launched today.

Proposals include (via the Guardian):

- A "Flat Fare" structure with no difference between Peak and Off-Peak fares
- E-Tickets to be cheaper than paper ones.

The Telegraph is also suggesting they are proposing the end of advance fares.

All ikn all it sounds absolutely terrible for the consumer

 

[yorksrob]

According to the Today programme newspaper review this morning, Fleet Street has also mentioned proposals to get rid of railcards as well as advance fares.

 

[higthomas]

https://www.britainrunsonrail.co.uk/faresprint

Here is what I think is the consultation. I look forward to reading it, but from early reading it doesn't look great.

Edit: So not much information in it really. Most interesting thing is their 3 options: A single fares between stations, stay the same or higher peak (and possibly off peak) fares but cheaper advances. Also they seem to really want e-tickets, which is fine if they actually implement them in anything other than a crack handed way as at present.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

https://www.britainrunsonrail.co.uk/faresprint

Here is what I think is the consultation. I look forward to reading it, but from early reading it doesn't look great.

Edit: So not much information in it really. Most interesting thing is their 3 options: A single fares between stations, stay the same or higher peak (and possibly off peak) fares but cheaper advances. Also they seem to really want e-tickets, which is fine if they actually implement them in anything other than a crack handed way as at present.

NB that's the PDF version for those who can't do the online survey.

 

[yorksrob]

https://www.britainrunsonrail.co.uk/faresprint

Here is what I think is the consultation. I look forward to reading it, but from early reading it doesn't look great.

Edit: So not much information in it really. Most interesting thing is their 3 options: A single fares between stations, stay the same or higher peak (and possibly off peak) fares but cheaper advances. Also they seem to really want e-tickets, which is fine if they actually implement them in anything other than a crack handed way as at present.

So a reliance on gimmicky electronics and not much of substance. No surprise there then.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Their stated objectives include the need to be predictable and to be flexible. Hard to see how these go together. Air fares are flexible - as in adjusting to deliver best use of expensive assets in the light of demand. But they are not predictable. London taxi fares in the middle of the night are predictable (if you take the same route, and don't encounter delays) but are not flexible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The options seem to be:

1. Kilometric pricing with no discounts

2. Roughly what we have now but with single-fare pricing

3. Move near enough everything to Advances, abolish non-Anytime walk-ups, and make the Anytime Single extremely prohibitively priced (higher even than the present VTWC ones)

I rather suspect they are intending to garner votes for #2, i.e. "it's not that bad after all, just needs a few tweaks" by proposing two other options that are definitely going to end up being heavily rejected.

Disappointing that a National Railcard is still not considered.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I added an extensive 'wish-list' in the comments section. Let's see how much of it, if at all, they even consider. A National Railcard, single leg pricing etc. was in there!

 

[30907]

The options seem to be:

1. Kilometric pricing with no discounts

2. Roughly what we have now but with single-fare pricing

3. Move near enough everything to Advances, abolish non-Anytime walk-ups, and make the Anytime Single extremely prohibitively priced (higher even than the present VTWC ones)

I rather suspect they are intending to garner votes for #2, i.e. "it's not that bad after all, just needs a few tweaks" by proposing two other options that are definitely going to end up being heavily rejected.

Disappointing that a National Railcard is still not considered.

The tick box bit is disappointing, but the open section gives everyone plenty of opportunity to make suggestions.

A National Railcard would be one way of implementing a discount for loyalty, which ISTR is suggested.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The tick box bit is disappointing, but the open section gives everyone plenty of opportunity to make suggestions.

A National Railcard would be one way of implementing a discount for loyalty, which ISTR is suggested.

Indeed, I would like to see a Railcard system more like that in Germany - the validity of the Railcard is the same across all ages, the only difference is the price. For example, under 18s can get a Railcard for €10 to last whilst they're 18 and under, 18-25s get an annual 25% off Railcard for €20-30 a year and 'the general public' have to pay more like €50-70 a year. Plus then they have different tiers of Railcards - 25% and 50% off ones (though there's a maximum of 25% off Advance fares).

And my favourite part of the system - a 100% Railcard which is effectively an all lines season ticket, for just €3500 a year in standard class, or €6000 a year for first class. Obviously the rail subsidy there is significantly greater in absolute terms and in per-journey or per-passenger-km than it is here. But still, I think a similar system would do well to be offered here, with adjusted prices.

I also think Railcards should be offered on a more flexible basis - such as on a monthly subscription (obviously costing more than an annual one if held for 12 months), for say £5 or £10 a month. That might encourage people who otherwise might be put off by the £30/£70 price tag.

 

[Adsy125]

As far as I can see the largest issue is ''Revenue neutral'. This means someone ends up paying a lot more than they do currently if anyone else benefits. So, reducing the ridiculous VTEC anytime fares will mean someone with little money travelling on the cheapest advance will pay more, so someone whose company buys their ticket pays less. Unless the most expensive tickets become more expensive, the majority will potentially lose out to reduce the priciest fares. This seems... unwise.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The tick box bit is disappointing, but the open section gives everyone plenty of opportunity to make suggestions.

Just a quick point for anyone completing this survey - it'd be worth taking a bit of time and effort to work out how to make your points as concisely and effectively as possible.

The people reading and summarising the responses are unlikely to spend ages reading and digesting a vast and dense screed to tease out all the pertinent points - so if you make their job easier, you're also likely to make your points with greater efficacy.

 

[F Great Eastern]

As said previously you are exceptionally naive to think that if this happens it will result in lower priced tickets. It will much more likely lead to the opposite because special offer tickets, rovers, rangers and advance purchase details will no doubt be the first tickets to go.

Things such as Group Save for example and duo tickets and all of the rangers are very good tickets which save people money. I'd rather have a less simple ticketing system and such tickets rather than lose these others to "simplify" ticketing for others and just have a single rate the is much higher than everything bar Anytime is currently.

It is exceptionally worrying that some people who do not understand the railways are backing simplification at all costs, they do not seem to appreciate that this will most likely increase the cost to travel for them.

Simplification is often marketing speak for hiking up the lowest prices and making minor reductions to the highest without saying it directly, since it sounds better to say you are simplifying your offer, than removing the cheapest elements of it.

 

[yorksrob]

I click on the link and the first thing I see is a graphic saying that fares regulations belong in the 90's. This doesn't bode well.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I click on the link and the first thing I see is a graphic saying that fares regulations belong in the 90's. This doesn't bode well.

I grew - I don't see what the relevance of the fact that fares regulations originated in the 90s is. It's served passengers well to protect them from operators' commercial desires.

 

[yorksrob]

I grew - I don't see what the relevance of the fact that fares regulations originated in the 90s is. It's served passengers well to protect them from operators' commercial desires.

Indeed. It suggests to me that they want rid full stop.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I click on the link and the first thing I see is a graphic saying that fares regulations belong in the 90's. This doesn't bode well.

That's not quite what it says though...

Some things belong in the 90s, but rail fare regulations need a refresh.

It's not the same thing, but one vague similarity that comes to mind is the council tax banding, which for England and Scotland dates from the early 90s and is widely regarded as being pretty outdated and in need of a revaluation - but that will result in loads as well as winners so thus far, whilst there's been a lot of task over the years, no government has bitten the bullet and gone for it (with the honourable exception of the Welsh government).

Many - including myself - are rightly suspicious of the TOCs, and also (though perhaps to a lesser extent) of the DfT. However the somewhat arbitrary baseline of 1996 underpinning rail fares regulation forevermore is perhaps not tenable.

The other key thing is the change in working patterns for many people, with a degree of working at home having become far more widespread. This obviously leads to the demand for flexible season tickets, which the current fares regulatory regime doesn't really cater for.

 

[yorksrob]

That's not quite what it says though...



It's not the same thing, but one vague similarity that comes to mind is the council tax banding, which for England and Scotland dates from the early 90s and is widely regarded as being pretty outdated and in need of a revaluation - but that will result in loads as well as winners so thus far, whilst there's been a lot of task over the years, no government has bitten the bullet and gone for it (with the honourable exception of the Welsh government).

Many - including myself - are rightly suspicious of the TOCs, and also (though perhaps to a lesser extent) of the DfT. However the somewhat arbitrary baseline of 1996 underpinning rail fares regulation forevermore is perhaps not tenable.

The other key thing is the change in working patterns for many people, with a degree of working at home having become far more widespread. This obviously leads to the demand for flexible season tickets, which the current fares regulatory regime doesn't really cater for.

I don't really see why we need a big consultation to tell us that we need flexible carnet style tickets as well as seasons. Unfortunately they're not as lucrative so they're likely to want to hike something else presumably.

 

[deltic]

I can see the conclusion from this exercise being that everyone is happy with the status quo - the few people who fill in the other section will mainly put forward ideas to reduce fares and the Government will say they must go up elsewhere so nothing changes.

Cant see it leading to the exciting radical shakeup implied by the pre-launch of this event

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the conclusion from this exercise being that everyone is happy with the status quo - the few people who fill in the other section will mainly put forward ideas to reduce fares and the Government will say they must go up elsewhere so nothing changes.

Cant see it leading to the exciting radical shakeup implied by the pre-launch of this event

I agree. What they've basically done is proposed as the 3 main options two very unpalatable ones (abolish all discounts, effectively abolish walk-ups by hiking the price to a penalty level) plus the status quo with a few tweaks. They haven't proposed options for positive change.

 

[westv]

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