Planned Manchester-Paris Overnight Train

[MidnightFlyer]

Just read in the current RAIL that there are plans for an overnight train taking 5h30 apx end-to-end from Manchester and Birmingham to Lille and Paris, routed via the WCML, NLL & HS1/the Channel tunnel. I'll get more info when I can. Initial thoughts?

 

[MCR247]

Yay, another NightStar type project, as last time it worked so well :roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yay, another NightStar type project, as last time it worked so well :roll:

Do you mind me asking what that is (I've never heard of it!!!).
Just remembered that it is designed to compete with airlines.

 

[ainsworth74]

Half decent page on Nightstar here

 

[jamesontheroad]

Yay, another NightStar type project, as last time it worked so well :roll:

It didn't work then because the nascent low-cost airline industry killed the idea of expensive overnight travel to Europe (and because the rolling stock was over-designed and over-weight). Now, more than a decade later, people are well aware of the cost/benefit sacrifices you make to fly to Europe. Just because Nightstar didn't work doesn't mean a similar proposition couldn't work now. The environmental appeal of train over plane has much greater traction now than it did in the early nineties.

Plus we've all had fifteen years to get thoroughly exhausted of Ryanair's tactics for sucking money out of our wallets for a supposedly low cost flight

 

[90019]

Nightstar was certainly the first thing that came to mind when I read the title.

I'm interested to know if there really is anything behind this, and if it actually does happen, I'd certainly be interested to see how it goes and if it would get extended any further beyond Paris.

 

[Nightrider]

It didn't work then because the nascent low-cost airline industry killed the idea of expensive overnight travel to Europe (and because the rolling stock was over-designed and over-weight). Now, more than a decade later, people are well aware of the cost/benefit sacrifices you make to fly to Europe. Just because Nightstar didn't work doesn't mean a similar proposition couldn't work now. The environmental appeal of train over plane has much greater traction now than it did in the early nineties.

Plus we've all had fifteen years to get thoroughly exhausted of Ryanair's tactics for sucking money out of our wallets for a supposedly low cost flight

Interesting post J, taking Ryanair's use of back of beyond airports, just as well they don,t run an overnight train from Manchester to Paris, Ryanair would ask you to join the train at Skipton.

 

[EM2]

And what about all the passport checks, baggage security checks etc. that will be needed?

 

[ivanhoe]

Few business people or tourists would use such a service to be viable. Unless it was priced at low cost airline prices, then it is a dead duck. I would like to be proved wrong and therefore a three month trial would be useful.

 

[PhilipW]

"Planned service". Hmm

I think this may be rather stretching the definition of the word "planned" !

 

[stut]

I think the power of the sleeper train is in getting to locations that aren't well served by air. Hence the popularity of the Eurostar ski train - even overnight in a seated carriage. Imagine this being a sleeper...

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Few business people or tourists would use such a service to be viable. Unless it was priced at low cost airline prices, then it is a dead duck. I would like to be proved wrong and therefore a three month trial would be useful.

Investment in new rolling stock (new sleeping cars, designed to Channel Tunnel standards) would, unfortunately dictate that a long term concession would be required for this to work.

The new rolling stock must be FAR simpler than the Night Stock coaches were, to reduce weight and cost.

Probably a non-starter, which is a shame, because I quite like the idea of going to bed in Manchester and waking up in Paris.

 

[MCR247]

Also what loading gauge would they be built to?

 

[43167]

Do you mind me asking what that is (I've never heard of it!!!).
Just remembered that it is designed to compete with airlines.

Its what was planned for when the tunnel opened. Overnight services from Plymouth/Swansea and London/Manchester (maybe Glasgow but cant remember)

Some of the stock was built & tested but ended up stored at Kineton for years until all completed vehicles were sold to Canada.

The trains would have been hauled by dedicated Class 37's (37601-612), with a generator van in between which were converted from 5 Mk3 sleepers.

Class 92's would have taken the trains under the sea, Eurostar owned 7 92's. The locos did see use with Eurostar with The 37's covering thunderbird duties until they were sold to DRS. While the 92's were used in the general RFD/EWS pool until the EPS 92's were stored.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Its what was planned for when the tunnel opened. Overnight services from Plymouth/Swansea and London/Manchester (maybe Glasgow but cant remember)

Some of the stock was built & tested but ended up stored at Kineton for years until all completed vehicles were sold to Canada.

.

So they built all the coaches, then never started the service, then sold them to the Canadians?

I think this could work, but they need to sell it as a good-quality service, I don't think this should be cheap and nasty (like Ryanair). We need top-quality First Class, comfy coaches etc etc. 5h30 isn't bad end-to-end, but the overhanging issue is about passport checks and customs etc. Suppose this could run exclusively from the old Mayfield Terminus ?

 

[MCR247]

I don't think it will work personally

 

[route:oxford]

Before running an overnight service - better to get a daytime service sorted out from sensible locations.

Security is clearly important, so better to deliver the service at a location that understands the security needs.

I'd suggest rebuilding stations at Birmingham International and Manchester Airport to accommodate services to the mainland. That way the security infrastructure is already there - essentially the new rail platforms are simply an extra two terminals.

Just need to sort out a route/spur from the West Coast mainline to HS1 - there's no need to make a stop at London as that will just waste time - effective ticket management will ensure good loadings.

Once that is done...

Think about overnight stock.

 

[northwichcat]

What are loadings like on the National Express/Eurolines overnight coach services between the UK and France? They're fairly high on overnight coach services to London but I don't about ones to France.

 

[Greenback]

One of the great advantages of overnight travel, whether by rail or coach, is that it affords the ability to save a day's travel. Now, using my home area as ana example (as always!), it's difficulto get anywhere after finishing a day's work. Depending on where you want to go in Europe, you may eb able to find an evening flight that you can ge tto the airport in tiem for, but this will probably mean arriving inw hat may be a strange place at a very late hour indeed.

Alternatively, you can wait until the next day, but catching the early flights from the nearest airport would mean a very early start indeed. In contrast, an overnight train service would allow you to leave in the evening, sleep through the dark hours (hopefully) and arrive with a full day at your destination.

I'm not 100% certain that this proposal would work, and I'd like to see a business plan for it, but it does have a chance if it is aimed at the right market. The fares would have to be competittive, but must also recognise the value that some people place on their time, as well as the fact that it effectively saves the cost of a night's accomoodation.

 

[northwichcat]

Overnight rail services are limited to major stations at present, so while you can get a train from Manchester-London to arrive before 7am by the time I can get a local train to Stockport to connect to a London service the earliest I can reach London is around 9.20am.

You can get overnight rail services to Manchester Airport from Preston, York, Sheffield and Liverpool but if you want to get to Manchester Airport from Knutsford, Altrincham, Wilmslow, Warrington, Northwich etc. you can't unless you pay for a taxi.

So I would think one of the reasons that patronage isn't high on overnight train services at present is the lack of feeder services.

 

[paul1609]

Just read in the current RAIL that there are plans for an overnight train taking 5h30 apx end-to-end from Manchester and Birmingham to Lille and Paris, routed via the WCML, NLL & HS1/the Channel tunnel. I'll get more info when I can. Initial thoughts?

Presumably they will fit some beds to a couple of redundant Pacers dormitary style?

 

[caliwag]

A proposal from a few years ago. You could email Mike and see how far he got with the project. St Pancras to Seville was the grand plan I believe.

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw098/rw098p10.pdf

 

[Caertroia]

A proposal from a few years ago. You could email Mike and see how far he got with the project. St Pancras to Seville was the grand plan I believe.

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw098/rw098p10.pdf

No mention of any "grand plan" there. Just a lot of flowery romance. "Our research suggests that a one-way ticket to Zurich in a shared compartment should not cost more than £100," says Michael Guerra in that article, but offers no supporting information.

 

[LouJ]

Let's be a bit more open minded. We have people killing off the idea before they have even heard the detail. True it might be a fanciful idea based on previous Nightstar experience.

However go have a look on the continent and you will soon realise that overnight sleeper services are very well patronised and presumably profitable. The key to this success? Probably services to the right places. Trains that are financially competitive with air and trains that are comfortable. If you want further proof the look how well Scotrail's sleeper services are doing. Any you might ask the question why First Great Western are adding extra sleepers to the Penzance service?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Page 18 of Rail issue 655 carries more details.

They're planning on using a single short NoL class 373s... not a proper Sleeper at all, so that halves the appeal straight away doesn't it?

The proposed timetable is to leave Paris at 18.30 ( French time ), arrive at Manchester at 23.00 ( UK time ) and then send the set back to Paris the same night for an 08.30 ( French time ) arrival.

This makes me think the northbound's only advantage will be that it's a through service; the present 18.43 Eurostar from Paris gets to St Pancras at 20.06 which means it's very easy to connect to the 20.40 Euston - Manchester which arrives at 22.48...

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The person who dreamt this up lives in Theory. Everything works in Theory. Any airline will undercut this on price and journey time. Using one set? Then it gets to Manchester and fails. I'm given to understand that the 373s aren't the most reliable trains ever built and the NOL sets are getting on for eighteen years of age.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If I was travelling on it I'd want a Sleeper berth anyway, not a sit up all night thing - especially if I was a businessman on my way to an important meeting.

And I mean a basic Sleeper berth like on the present UK Sleepers; anything else will just suffer from the same problems as Nightstar did.

 

[A60K]

Let's be a bit more open minded. We have people killing off the idea before they have even heard the detail. True it might be a fanciful idea based on previous Nightstar experience.

However go have a look on the continent and you will soon realise that overnight sleeper services are very well patronised and presumably profitable. The key to this success? Probably services to the right places. Trains that are financially competitive with air and trains that are comfortable. If you want further proof the look how well Scotrail's sleeper services are doing. Any you might ask the question why First Great Western are adding extra sleepers to the Penzance service?

I'm afraid there isn't such a rosy picture for sleeper services as you paint - either here or on the continent. Compare sleeper services in 1990 to this year and you'll see that many trains have been cut because they're not profitable. All French internal sleepers have gone, all sleepers to and from Belgium, the Scottish sleepers have been halved and all non-London services cut, the Orient Express has now completely gone, and there are coumtless other sleepers abolished all over Europe. There are only around 30-50% of sleeper services still running in most countries compared to 1990 and that's a cut that will continue.

The basic problems are that low-cost airlines and faster daytime trains have meant that the demand for sleeper servces has dropped year-on-year. The basic economics of sleepers are poo as well, with only one low passenger density trip per day for the stock and a high staffing ratio.

If it was not for a significant political subsidy then the ScotRail and FGW sleepers would almost certainly be abolished. In no sense of the word are the services profitable, and when the Mk3 sleeping cars reach the end of their life I think it's going to be difficult to justify building new equipment and retaining the services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Can I also point out people do fine on aircraft with no beds having myself done several 26 hour (Manchester-Amsterdam-Hong Kong-Sydney) and 23 hour (Manchester-London-Singapore-Sydney) flights to visit relatives in the same seat, what you really need is a shower and a place to freshen up in the morning.

 

[Greenback]

It's the low cost airlines and the high speed trains that have really hit the sleeper network. The former are becoming less popular, particularly iwith business travellers, and are not so low cost as they once were. I would be interested to see a comparison of low cost airline routes between 2000 and 2010!

An unfortunate side effect of the budget airlines, discussed elsewhere, is the reduction ins ervice on board airlines such as BA. It seems that the pubic has been re educated to expect lower levels of service in general, which could be a part explanation for the Nightstar failure.

As for the high speed trains, they have made longer by day more feasible, although they often require a very early start if a full day of business is to be conducted at the destination, and a very late return. Still, most business people do seem to prefer to sleep in their own beds in their own homes, so are quite willing to put up with the inconvenience!

This leaves leisure travellers, and here we have the crux of the problem. These are the very people that are more likely to be price conscious and wooed away by the airlines. The non price conscious leisure travelelr would then be the only market that could reaslistically be targetted by this sort of service, but woudl they want to sit up all night? It's a difficult one!

I am even more unsure about the prospects of this idea now, but I don't think it should be written off out of hand.