Pick-up only destination - what grounds to prevent me using

[TheEdge]

Exeter St. David’s on one occasion

I'd absolutely love to see that!

 

[Mag_seven]

As all West of England services call at Reading to pick up passengers, what happened to all those wanting to join when these services didn't stop?

 

[coppercapped]

As all West of England services call at Reading to pick up passengers, what happened to all those wanting to join when these services didn't stop?

This first happened in the mid-1960s when Gerry Fiennes was General Manager of the Western Region. There was a perennial problem with one of the late afternoon trains to the West Country on Fridays being filled with season ticket holders travelling from Paddington to Reading although the Reading stop was not advertised at Paddington but the timetable shewed that it called to pick-up only.
So one Friday Fiennes arranged that a relief train would start from Reading at the scheduled time and make the same calls as the main train. This then ran from Paddington to Taunton non-stop and the revenue people made a killing - all those Paddington to Taunton single tickets!

Apparently the overcrowding problem then went away...

 

[PHILIPE]

As all West of England services call at Reading to pick up passengers, what happened to all those wanting to join when these services didn't stop?

The train was so heavily loaded that any more passengers would have been unable to board, This is the factor that caused the train to skip Reading.

 

[DunfordBridge]

What don't you understand in those 5 or 6 words? If the timetable says "U" then you can't use that train to alight there. That train is for long-distance travellers (who are probably paying considerably more per mile than you are) who may not be able to physically get on in London if MK commuters hog all the space.
It's a long-established response to exactly this problem and used to be far more common. I would like to see a lot more of it too - with vigorous enforcement.

I am not quite sure if I have any beef with this commuting practice. As far as I am concerned, the original poster has paid for his ticket and is a regular rail traveller instead of going by car. I gather that stops for picking up only were more widespread in the days of BR before they woke up to competition from other modes of transport although I am not sure exactly how viable commuting from London to Milton Keynes would be by car?

I am not actually convinced long-distance travellers are actually paying more per mile as I always believed local journeys to work out more expensive, especially considering that some one-off passengers may have paid £15 for an advance ticket to travel a distance of 100 miles. To be more honest, I would be more irritated by discounted travellers reserving seats on busy commuter services.

Correct me if I have misgauged the situation but I seldom travel around those parts. I know it has been mentioned that alternative services are on offer but not of their frequency.

 

[DarloRich]

I am not quite sure if I have any beef with this commuting practice. As far as I am concerned, the original poster has paid for his ticket and is a regular rail traveller instead of going by car. I gather that stops for picking up only were more widespread in the days of BR before they woke up to competition from other modes of transport although I am not sure exactly how viable commuting from London to Milton Keynes would be by car?

I am not actually convinced long-distance travellers are actually paying more per mile as I always believed local journeys to work out more expensive, especially considering that some one-off passengers may have paid £15 for an advance ticket to travel a distance of 100 miles. To be more honest, I would be more irritated by discounted travellers reserving seats on busy commuter services.

Correct me if I have misgauged the situation but I seldom travel around those parts. I know it has been mentioned that alternative services are on offer but not of their frequency.

Frequency? Every 15 minutes ish

 

[gazthomas]

I think the OP has given up on us

 

[Flying Snail]

I am not quite sure if I have any beef with this commuting practice. As far as I am concerned, the original poster has paid for his ticket and is a regular rail traveller instead of going by car. I gather that stops for picking up only were more widespread in the days of BR before they woke up to competition from other modes of transport although I am not sure exactly how viable commuting from London to Milton Keynes would be by car?

I am not actually convinced long-distance travellers are actually paying more per mile as I always believed local journeys to work out more expensive, especially considering that some one-off passengers may have paid £15 for an advance ticket to travel a distance of 100 miles. To be more honest, I would be more irritated by discounted travellers reserving seats on busy commuter services.

Correct me if I have misgauged the situation but I seldom travel around those parts. I know it has been mentioned that alternative services are on offer but not of their frequency.

The issue of price is irrelevant as it is not the reason for the restriction. It is nearly always the case these days that some passengers on a train will pay far less than others for the same journey but if it wasn't the case that many long distance fares cost considerably more per mile than short ones then the split ticketing opportunities would not exist.

The reason for the pick-up only restriction is to stop short journey passengers who have a frequent alternative service from preventing long distance passengers (who in the case of west country or Chester/North Wales have an hourly or less frequency) being denied boarding due to overcrowding.

 

[geoffk]

This practice is uncommon outside London but Manchester to Bolton on TPE is likely to be similar in the near future when the Scotland trains are rerouted. These trains start from the airport and, while there will be many alternative Northern services to Bolton from central Manchester, there's only one an hour from the airport.

A few years ago Virgin services did not carry any local passengers between Stockport and Piccadilly, in either direction all day, but this restriction was dropped altogether as it presumably it could not be enforced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason for the pick-up only restriction is to stop short journey passengers who have a frequent alternative service from preventing long distance passengers (who in the case of west country or Chester/North Wales have an hourly or less frequency) being denied boarding due to overcrowding.

Precisely. At other times VTWC like to gain extra income from offering dedicated tickets from MKC, so it is clearly an issue that needs solving.

In the peak there is a very frequent service of LNR trains, both fast and slow, with a very large amount of capacity and (if you seek out the 350/1 and /3s) good comfort as well. There is no need to use VTs for this journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Manchester to Bolton journey on TPE is likely to be a similar one in the near future when the Scotland trains are rerouted. These trains start from the airport and, while there will be many alternative Northern services to Bolton from central Manchester, there's only one an hour from the airport.

And there we have the obsession with that infernal airport again. 1tph is quite adequate for the likely all-day demand from Bolton to the Airport itself, assuming the TPE isn't that 1tph, which I'm pretty sure it is not. And a week in Benidorm once a year does not provide justification for a direct service from every station in the North West to it.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Local commuters using long distance services is a regular occurrence Birmingham - Wolverhampton where Wolves commuters pile onto Manchester services despite having another 6-7 tph. Can't make it pick up only though as there are legitimate passengers who may be travelling Bournemouth or Plymouth to Wolverhampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Local commuters using long distance services is a regular occurrence Birmingham - Wolverhampton where Wolves commuters pile onto Manchester services despite having another 6-7 tph. Can't make it pick up only though as there are legitimate passengers who may be travelling Bournemouth or Plymouth to Wolverhampton.

It could be done by way of the fares system, of course, particularly in PTE areas where the PTE tickets could have no IC validity.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

It could be done by way of the fares system, of course, particularly in PTE areas where the PTE tickets could have no IC validity.

That could be an option but Wolves has no barriers and I cannot remember the last time I saw a ticket check BHM-WVH at peak time :/

 

[Tim R-T-C]

his happens all over. The 0655 skipton -KX train is pick up only at Keighley and Shipley.
leeds KX early morning trains were puck up only at wakefield westgate

These are different reasons. That is for ORCATS reasons - to avoid abstraction of fares from Northern by LNER. There is no real issue with passengers overcrowding London travellers at 0655.


The Milton Keynes and Reading services are pick-up only to reduce crowding.

Simple fact is that if too many MK commuters arrogantly decide to keep boarding these services, VT will just cut out the stop there, which means MK passengers heading north will be the ones to suffer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Simple fact is that if too many MK commuters arrogantly decide to keep boarding these services, VT will just cut out the stop there, which means MK passengers heading north will be the ones to suffer.

They mostly aren't, largely because most VT services now have boarding checks at Euston and they won't be allowed past them.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I did think when they rebuilt Reading it would have been good to incorporate a couple of barriered platforms that could be completely isolated, so that when a pick-up only service arrived, passengers who did disembark would have to talk to ticket inspectors before leaving the station.

 

[Antman]

I fully understand the reason for these arrangements to prevent over crowding on long distance services but how realistic are they in an age when commuters can check on their phone where exactly the train is stopping?

A prime example, the 16.52 from Waterloo to Westbury is advertised as being fast to Basingstoke but does actually stop at Clapham Junction and Woking. At Clapham Junction I overheard a passenger asking platform staff about how to get to Farnborough and he was advised to join that train and change at Woking. He queried whether the train would stop at Woking, the next advertised stop being Basingstoke and was assured that it would stop at Woking despite what announcements said.

And is this idea of charging people another fare really going to work? Commuters aren't the meek and mild bowler hat and brolly brigade they used to be and any attempt to make them pay again is likely to get short shrift.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Maybe the way to proceed with this is say board the Virgin trains by all means but expect to pay an Intercity surcharge. How long are these trains anyway, nine carriage Pendolinos?

If the network was not so fragmented and the branding clearer, then maybe restrictions could be imposed on the ticket of the OP saying 'Except Intercity.'

Frequency? Every 15 minutes ish

Far cry from the disruption experienced between York and Scarborough tonight.

The issue of price is irrelevant as it is not the reason for the restriction. It is nearly always the case these days that some passengers on a train will pay far less than others for the same journey but if it wasn't the case that many long distance fares cost considerably more per mile than short ones then the split ticketing opportunities would not exist.

Personally, I would say that split-ticketing is so appealing because of the greater potential for savings over greater distances and the inherent complexity of the ticketing system which does not always compete with car travel.

For example if I travel from Scarborough to Northallerton, I can save a fiver easily by splitting at York. The expense of the usual standard return cannot be justified as I am not always guaranteed a timely connection at York where I always have to change. I am not sure if there has ever been a suitable through service between the two towns.

 

[ASharpe]

These are different reasons. That is for ORCATS reasons - to avoid abstraction of fares from Northern by LNER. There is no real issue with passengers overcrowding London travellers at 0655.

I thought it was due to platform length. Only one door opens on a very long train with lots of passengers getting on. If you don't know what you are doing you are going to get over carried.

 

[John @ home]

If you were caught, you'd be charged a season ticket to the first stop with which you could legitimately use the train I.e. the first stop that isn't set down only.

I agree that you could be charged for a single ticket to the first stop that isn't set down only, but I can see no basis for charging a season ticket for a single journey.

You could even get reported for ticketless travel.

Agreed.

 

[_toommm_]

I agree that you could be charged for a single ticket to the first stop that isn't set down only, but I can see no basis for charging a season ticket for a single journey.Agreed.

I can see the argument with season ticket holders, but it technically isn't valid for that portion of the journey on that particular train so the passenger should definitely get charged from Euston.

 

[Qwerty133]

To be honest more TOCs could do with using such restrictions. EMT for example would benefit from imposing restrictions on calls at Luton and Bedford during engineering works so that passengers travelling north thereof can board one of their 1/2 trains an hour rather than Bedford passengers who have 48 other trains each hour to choose from.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Actually, whilst I agree that passengers may be denied entry to a train which is 'pick up' only despite having a valid ticket to MKC, I don't agree that they can be charged any additional fare if they do indeed get off at MKC, having somehow made it onto the train. The only time I believe the TOC would have the right to charge the fare to the next timetabled set-down stop would be if the passenger had no ticket at all (or one not valid at all even to MKC, e.g. a LNR-only ticket).

If the train ends up not stopping there... fair enough, the ticket holder can be charged the appropriate fare to the first stop. But I don't see any basis in the NRCoT for treating a passenger as not having a valid ticket just because of the nature of the call.

Prosecution would also appear difficult. How can the passenger be said to be boarding the train without a valid ticket (Byelaw 18(1)) if they have a ticket that is valid for the journey they make, to the station the train stops at and opens the doors at? They would be able to present a ticket upon inspection (Byelaw 18(2)). And they would have paid their fare (RoRA S5(3)(a)) for the journey they intended to make, and actually made.

It only really becomes problematic if the train ends up not stopping - if that happens, of course the situation is quite different. So really, it is a question of practicality of getting on the train, and of risk to the passenger if the train doesn't stop.

 

[Kite159]

To be honest more TOCs could do with using such restrictions. EMT for example would benefit from imposing restrictions on calls at Luton and Bedford during engineering works so that passengers travelling north thereof can board one of their 1/2 trains an hour rather than Bedford passengers who have 48 other trains each hour to choose from.

I would like to see all those 48 trains per hour to Bedford, when at weekends (when engineering works are most likely) currently they have 2 Thameslink trains per hour.

 

[sheff1]

The basis to prevent you using it is that it is not timetabled to set down passengers at MKC, therefore no ticket to MKC is valid on it.

By itself.

But someone with a season from London to MKC, and another ticket from MKC to somewhere the train does stop to set down, holds a perfectly valid set of tickets.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

What about non single/return tickets?

I know someone who got on one of the old Virgin 47 hauled Brighton services at Kensington Olympia to do it to East Croydon I think, or something like that. Guard came straight over and said you can't join at a set down only stop, so will have to charge you a ticket from Milton Keynes to East Croydon, but the ticket he held was an all line rover, so guard was stumped and just walked off!

Not known anyone else with an All Line Rover getting off at pick up stations or joining at set downs but it's no doubt happened!

 

[Bedpan]

..... Bedford passengers who have 48 other trains each hour to choose from.

No wonder everything grinds to a halt through the core when there is the slightest problem. Now, where was that "Two platform station with the most frequent train service" thread?

 

[jopsuk]

Restrictions like this have been in place since British Railways days- I think Watford may even be a BR era one? Pretty sure people have challenged fines issued because of this and lost on several occasions.

So go ahead OP, do it if you think the risk of getting caught or over-carried due to last minute removal of the stop is a low risk. But don't say you weren't warned!

 

[Statto]

Didn't Luton & Bedford have similar ticket restrictions on EMT, i know Stevenage had similar ticket restrictions restricted on ECML, & there's a few late night services out of London too, mostly so they can divert via another line if there's a possession.